CT Theory on how Vader became Force Ghost

Has this ever been explained in any canon or legends material before?

My theory is after Obi Wan dissapeared into thin air in ANH Vader must have become very curious how his old master was able to do the one thing he had been obssessing over ever since the death of shimi... How to defeat death?

Vader must have spent the years between ANH and Jedi meditating, concentrating all his force powers and communicating and learning the ways of the force ghost in secret. His unmatched connection to the force after beng born of the force itself must have given him a instinctual guide on how to do it. I do think he may have gotten close, maybe even communed with Qui Gon to a degree. Ultimalety, he may have fianlly discovered the power could only come to him if he accepted the light. So at the end of ROTJ he is finally able to finish the training he had spent years mastering.

 

The ROTJ novel has a brief scene where Anakin's incorporeal spirit speaks with Obi-Wan before fading to the netherworld and he's taught then and there how to preserve his identity

 

Wow is that still canon? Seems like something shoehorned in at the last minute. From what I had remembered Yoda spent quite a long time learning how to do it while still alive as did Obi-Won yet Anakin learns it instantly just as he is about to pass to the netherworld? Too easy an explanation.

 

No. But it's there and it's, as far as I know, the only official explanation we've ever been given

I suppose you could headcanon it to "He's the Chosen One, so he gets a free pass at it" or something along those lines

 

I like the idea of Yoda or Obi-Wan (or even Qui-Gon) helping him. My pet theory is that they were kinda prepared to help Luke in case he got killed, but instead helped Anakin.

 

chosen one.

 

JMHO, The whole "Force Ghost" idea and what it took to become one just wasn't as complicated at the time ROTJ was filmed as it has become over the following years. I think his inclusion was to strengthen the point that he had redeemed himself in his final actions.

With all the additional philosophy that has been added since then, that simpler explanation gets harder to maintain. I think it worked pretty well in 1983 though.

 

I still go with the idea that everyone's personality survives after death. It's just a matter of whether you're in Light Side Heaven or Dark Side Hell. However, only those of particular power are able to communicate with the physical world. So, I think Ani's personality survived, and he able to instinctively briefly appear to Luke. It would probably take further effort to communicate more fully.

However, I agree that the EU has made things far more complicated, and with the big canon realignment post-TFA, I have no idea just where the current thinking lies.

But as long as Ani is reunited with Padme, his Mom and Qui-Gon; and Han shows up in LSH, I'm fine.

 

I think the whole thing has continuity error written all over it. In the old movies, I think it was just something that happened to Jedi. I remember George talking about Force spirits when he was making the prequels. He had to come up with something to explain why there weren't hundreds of dead Jedi floating around talking to everyone.

I don't buy that Anakin was taught the trick in a few moments.

Here's another one: did Obi-Wan disappear before actually being killed?

 

Sure looked like it to me! It didn't look like his cloak was cut or anything. Vader poking his foot in there wondering what the heck?, lol. And for almost 40 years, we've been left to make up our minds for ourselves what happened. Vader probably still wonders too! And that's awesome!!!

 

You may be thinking of The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, which, along with The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi - go through the OT and PT from the point of view of Vader and Kenobi respectively:

The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader:​

​

Closing his eyes as he slumped back against the shuttle ramp, Anakin Skywalker had every reason to believe he was finally about to embrace perpetual darkness.​

Not for the first time, he was wrong.​

​

Initially, there was darkness for Anakin Skywalker, a boundless shadowy realm, like a universe without stars. But then, from somewhere at the edge of his awareness, he perceived a distant, shimmering light, then heard a voice say, Anakin.​

The voice was familiar.​

Although Anakin no longer had a body or mouth with which to speak, he somehow answered, Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—​

Anakin, listen carefully, Obi-Wan interrupted, and Anakin was aware that the distant light was either growing brighter or closer, or perhaps both. You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force, If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades.​

Knowing he was beyond redemption, Anakin said, But Master ... why me?​

Because you ended the horror, Anakin, Obi-Wan said. Because you fulfilled the prophesy.​

The light was very bright now.​

Anakin's first thought was that he might be able to see his children again. He said, Thank you, Master.​

​

The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi ​

​

Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.​

Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.​

Obi-Wan recalled what Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit had told him so long ago, when he said that Obi-Wan was not ready, and that he failed to understand. For so many years, Obi-Wan had thought Qui-Gon meant that he wasn't ready to comprehend details about Anakin's conversion to the dark side. But now, he finally understood his Master's words.​

I wasn't ready to forgive Anakin. And he won't be entirely free unless I do.​

Unfortunately, just as Obi-Wan realised that Anakin Skywalker lived, he also knew that Anakin would not live much longer. As Luke hauled his dying father toward a shuttle, Obi-Wan's spirit shifted his own psyche to another realm. And he waited.​

​

After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."​

A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness. "Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—"​

"Anakin, listen carefully," Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."​

Obi-Wan sensed confusion and remorse in Anakin's psyche, then Anakin answered, "But Master ... why me?"​

"Because you ended the horror, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are ... The Chosen One."​

But Obi-Wan knew in his heart that those were not the only reasons. He added, "Because I was wrong about you. And because I am your friend."​

 

Was going to say none of the ROTJ novels I ever read had ANY mention of it.

 

It's really that simple for me.

 

Return of the Jedi DVD commentary.

 

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

There's definitely some major continuity errors at play. Although I dont agree that Lucas originally intended to make it something all Jedi do. Why the proclamation from Obi to Vader that he had learned to become more powerful than he could possibly imagine and why the surprise from Vader when Obi did disappear? If this was some force trick like force choke it would be obvious to Vader what his old master had done.

If Lucas has made it canon that Obi-Wan and Yoda taught him such a difficult trick in his last moments of life it seems too far fetched to me. Why were not ALL the old Jedi who could force ghost in the past helping others with this trick in the Netherworld? Then again I wonder if his ROTJ DVD commentary came after or before ROTS and his further adding of the canon where Qui Gon has to learn the technique and pass it on over years to Yoda and Obi Wan.

I do have a feeling this will likely never be fully explored in canon.

 

I agree. It's too difficult to reconcile and satisfy all conditions. The only easy answer is that it was the will of the Force to keep his soul intact.

 

From the perspective of the films in isolation, there weren't necessarily any old Jedi who could Force ghost in the past. As far as I know those examples from the old EU days haven't been carried over into new-canon.

The DVD was released in the fall of 2004.

It's easy enough to assume that Yoda & Obi-Wan had something to do with it, as Lucas has maintained in the past.

 

It was. Season six of "The Clone Wars". The episodes "Voices" and "Destiny" explain that this was something that only a few Jedi were ever granted in their history and even fewer had discovered it prior to then.


QUI-GON: "I have been tasked with guiding you forward. There can be many outcomes, but your path is clear, Yoda. You have been chosen, as I was before you."

YODA: "For what chosen am I?"

QUI-GON: "You will learn to preserve your Life Force, and so, manifest a consciousness which will allow you to commune with the living after death."

YODA: "How? Dark times are ahead, and forces of light must remain. This is the path of only a few Jedi."


SERENITY: "He is to teach one that will save the universe from a great imbalance. For this, the great gift will be his."


And it was in the script for ROTS.


YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is…"

QUI-GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

Plus, there is what was written way back in 1981, where Lucas revised his initial idea that all of the Jedi Masters could do this and many were hiding in the Netherworld of the Force. When he went to work on the PT, it was there again.

"The big surprise is that (Obi-Wan) doesn't die - he's able to join the Force at will and retain his identity, and influence things in a more powerful way than he could just by being a Jedi. "

--George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

The issue of consciously joining the Force, which is a theme that runs through these films, and being able to retain your personality and your individuality once you've gone over to the other side, is a part of the story that gets explained in the first three films (Episodes I-III). Here (ESB) it becomes kind of a mystery, because it's never really explained how and why that happens."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS, Page 40.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

I totally do not headcanon that everyone is reunited after death (Anakin with Padme and Shmi for example)- I feel like most folks go back into the force not as who they are individually, and that's what separates those who become Force Ghosts in addition to being able to communicate with surviving force-sensitives. I wonder if we will have any further clarification in the new films.

 

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS, Page 40.

See this is what I don't understand. Lucas is clearly saying there is a sort of training/technique one must spend time to master to become "accomplished" enough to become a corporeal ghost and yet Anakin is just taught this in the few moments before he dies? Makes no sense... I think I'll keep my wild headcanon that Vader must have spent some time learning it himself before Yoda/Obi taught him the final things he needed to become a corporeal ghost.

 

My theory is that as the Chosen One, Anakin became a ghost by default. It's natural for him, whereas it's a skill for others. Kind of like inheriting money vs earning it.

 

Yoda and Obi-wan helped him to accomplish this. Qui-gon had no one to help him, hence he didn't vanish. Anakin's remains vanished after his death. What was left was the suit and the bionics.

 

Anakin was conceived by midichloreans, and is the chosen one, and had TWO masters. So I think it makes sense he can learn it so fast. Those two has a only half succsessfull master, and Anakin has a high connection to the force.

Originally I chalked it up to beingthe chosen one, now I think it's just a part of it thanks to George's comments.

Also Anakin's role was kind of different, besides being the chosen one and all he had TWO paths. He could have became one with the dark or the light side apparently, so maybe that difference helped because he was rejecting the dark when both were pulling him in? Just a theory.

 

When we see him, note that we see Obi-wan and Yoda first. Then Obi-wan looks over as Anakin fades in. The visual cue is that they helped him. Just because Lucas swapped out Shaw for Hayden doesn't change how it is set up.