CT Theory on how Vader became Force Ghost

I always thought that Yoda explained it in TESB when he said to Luke "Through the Force, things you will see, other places. The future, the past, old friends long gone"

So to my mind, the ability to be a "force ghost" lies not with those that are dead, but with those that are still alive, and their ability to conjure the apparition using the Force.

Sort of like how a devout faith in a religion allows the follower to gain what he wants from it. Luke's training and skills in the Force are what allows the vision of Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda to appear to him alone, because Leia doesn't appear to see or notice them when she pulls Luke back to the group.

 

The ability to see the ghost while being alive, is just that. The ability to be seen and heard rests with the living learning how to do it before death, but two of the dead help the other to get a crash course in appearing.

 

Qui-Gon and Yoda and Anakin too had to die to become after Force ghosts.
So, if he disappeared before he was killed by Vader, he had to kill himself in the moment where he closes his eyes to meditate and become a Force ghost.

 

Star Wars takes bits and pieces from many religions. I've always wondered if the story of Enoch was used for the way Ben was given to the Force:

No I'm not saying that the Force is God. I'm just saying that maybe Ben gave himself up in faith, and the Force took him away without experiencing death.

Or maybe he let himself die, or maybe it was the world's worst special effect, lol.

Just one of the things one can come up with when the mystery is left a mystery. I'm glad George did that. People can come up with their own explanations.

 

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script..." - ROTJ DVD commentary

 

Not on-screen - hence retconnable.

 

There's no need for him to disappear. If they really wanted to add that it could have been added to the scene in any of the different releases of the film over the years - unless it's beyond their technical capabilities. What we see is him dying and then lying there not disappearing for an amount of time which can be compared to what we saw in Yoda's case. We know the original intent of the scene, and we know from Qui-Gon's example that disappearing is not necessarily a prerequisite for ghosting anyway.

 

It may be the RoTJ radio play that set the precedent:

"I burn his armor and with it the name of Darth Vader. May the name of Anakin Skywalker be a light that guides the Jedi for generations to come… Rest well, father. The Force is with you."

even if the EU had been mentioning it before that.

 

It was probably beyond what could be done, or at least well enough. Doing a fade years after the fact without having set it up that way to begin with, would be a bit difficult to pull off. A person can be digitally erased which happened with "Highlander Endgame" when the effects team removed Christopher Lambert from footage of the first film, in order to recycle that footage into the fourth film.

Qui-gon's body is a different matter as Lucas states.

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS, Page 40.

And it is brought up in TCW.

YODA: "Show yourself, can you?"

QUI-GON: "I cannot. My training was incomplete."

And since Lucas goes on to state that Obi-wan and Yoda helped him, then it is reasonable for Anakin's body to disappear. The flesh parts that were left and thus he's a ghost and his bionics and the suit were burned.

 

In a Q&A session, Filoni hints Yoda told Anakin about it after TCW Yoda arc.

 

True, but Vader still doesn't know everything as he steps on Obi-wan's robes to see if it was a trick. Anakin knows that it is possible to talk to the dead, but not how to do it.

 

The old SW Databank entry used to say something along the lines of Anakin's body disappearing on the funeral pyre.

 

This is kind of what the final versions of the films hint at. Afterall, Yoda says in ROTS that Qui-Gon returned from the netherworld and in AOTC he states people transform into the force when they die. Also in TESB Yoda states death is a "forever sleep", a reward he has earned. That ghosting is just a way to reconstitute oneself into the realm of the living, not saving oneself from death. So going by what the final films presents, it makes sense that Anakin was taught in the netherworld how to comeback and ghost in the living world. Lucas is well known to being a rampant flip flopper with low concern for continuity which even irked Rick and Filoni at times. Originally at the end of ROTJ, Palps was going to transform into a dark side ghost which would have been explored more in the ST.

 

Oh, dear heavens, I hope they don't bring Palpatine back. He was a bad guy, he got what was coming to him, and he's gone. I'd rather not have things get ridiculous, like the Joker or the Master always coming back no matter what.

 

This is the latest bit of info about how Anakin was able to become a FG. He doesn't really tell an answer but he seems to imply Yoda could have played a role in it which means Lucas maybe didn't change his mind on the subject.

 

TPM did an effective job of establishing that Qui-Gon was unique among Jedi. He was independent and focused on the moment. He let himself be guided by the will of the Force, not by the bureaucracy of the Jedi code. He made it a point to tell Anakin that focus determines reality. He takes little meditation breaks whenever he can squeeze them in. We haven't seen too many Jedi do that. In that regard, it is easier to accept that Qui-Gon stumbled onto the Force ghost trick.

Looking back on it, I would have preferred that Qui-Gon disappeared as he lay dying, leaving Obi-Wan confused just as he left Vader confused in ANH. I can picture a scene in which Obi-Wan reports his master's disappearance to the council and Yoda & Mace give each other "that look". Of course, now Yoda's personal mission is to figure it out and the rest plays out like it did. Perhaps, Yoda was casting too wide a net and needed to focus on something more specific which Anakin, the galaxy's most powerful being, supplied by suddenly shifting from light to dark during the Tusken Raider slaughter which undoubtedly created enough of a ripple in the Force for Yoda to tune into...and that's when he heard Qui-Gon, who was also focused on Anakin.

 

It has nothing to do with being a maverick. It has to do with being a good person when you die and to have no selfish intent and feeling on your part.


SERENITY: "At death, in order for you to preserve your identity, you must know yourself, your true self, and then let go."


QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed. You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

 

Except in ROTS as Yoda explains to Obi-Wan, it is nothing like that, it is how to commune with the dead. That Qui-Gon found a way to commune with the living from the netherworld, which is consider a form of immortality in itself. However, it takes training for a living person to commune with a ghost. It is problematic to apply TCW concepts to the films or vise versa since they both diverge from each other on so many story elements. However, the most consistent aspect to this is that dark siders can't return from the netherworld as they don't go there, they don't transform into the force, they are consumed by the darkside instead. One of the early ROTJ scripts explained that Yoda and Obi saved Anakin after death from being consumed by the darkside by bringing him back into the light side, Luke in life gave Anakin the will to return back to the light.







YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

OBI-WAN: Training??

YODA: An old friend who has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon!

YODA: How to commune with him, I will teach you.

YODA Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep. Earned it, I have.

It was an idea Lucas ended up rejecting as he shoehorned most of his ST ideas into ROTJ as the final of the sega.

 

All that TCW did was present what Lucas said onscreen. The Qui-gon quotes comes from Lucas' own pencil. Serenity's quote is based off of what was in "The Annotated Screenplays" and what Lucas wrote in his notes, as well as his own words on the subject. The first part was learning to communicate. The second part was learning how to become a ghost.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

So yes, TCW which come from Lucas himself, can be applied to the films since Lucas himself explained it in his own commentaries.

 

How so? Even Lucas contradicts himself and his own works at times, such as stating the dark side is more powerful than the light when the films outright says this isn't the case at all. The same guy who killed Maul beyond any doubt by design, only to bring him back in a way that contradicts the whole point of darksiders being consumed by the darkside after they die, somehow finding a way to cheat death and completely contradicts a major plot point in ROTS as well as being schlocky as hell. Probably on purpose as a homeage to the schlocky sequels to Universal horror monsters that kept bringing the dead monsters back to life in increasingly ridiculous ways. TCW didn't present anything from the final films said, only what Lucas had flip flopped to at that moment. Lucas himself stated continuity is for wimps, which means he wrote the various stories with little thought of making it all mesh, and making it impossible to reconcile it all by design. TCW veered off and did its own thing with many story elements and characters, some of which can't be reconciled on purpose and by design from Lucas, so it is difficult and highly problematic to compare anything from TCW to the films or anything from the films to TCW, they were never intended to mesh. Even within just the films, aspects of force ghosts don't fully jive with each other and plagued with continuity errors which TCW just piles more continuity errors on.

The rough draft quote you cited backs up and confirms what I stated above as far as what the films presents about ghosting. The only clear things about ghosting is that it is a rare and little know ability as well as the ability for the living to commune with a force ghost, and it is an ability Vader and the other Sith didn't have knowledge of.


YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.


YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

OBI-WAN: Training??

YODA: An old friend who has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon!

YODA: How to commune with him, I will teach you.



YODA: Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep. Earned it, I have.

Plus Vader's/ Anakin's body doesn't disappear because he didn't have the knowledge to ghost before his death which matches Qui-Gon on film. Clearly the films indicates lightsiders transforms and become one with the force, which is why they can ghost if they learn how to, but darksiders are consumed by the darkside rather than transform into it, hence there is nothing of them to ghost. The irony of the darkside is despite what its practitioners say about its power, all the darkside does is take everything from them. The quote above about Lucas adding the body burning in last minute shows he is more concerned about making a story interesting than consistent and it too supports what I have stated and the utter futility of attempting reconciling Star Wars into a single clean continuity, not even its original creator could do it nor did he even want to.
.

 

It's obvious that the dark side is stronger since we never see a Jedi win a fight without using it. Obi-wan's two victories come from his outsmarting his opponent, not outfighting him. Luke only beats Vader in battle by using it. Rey starts using it against Ben. Anakin kills Dooku using it. Mace starts using it and is able to disarm Palpatine. Yoda's not going to tell Luke the truth.

All of "Star Wars" is schlocky.

Again, Lucas was being facetious when he says, "continuity is for wimps". You take it a face value. Everything else about TCW matches up to the films.

And that's still true in TCW. Qui-gon found out about it from the Shaman of the Whills and Serenity. He teaches Yoda and Obi-wan how to do it. They teach Anakin.

Anakin's body disappeared off screen thanks to Obi-wan and Yoda. Recall that Yoda doesn't vanish right away. What was burned was the suit and the bionics.

Uh, Anakin is no longer evil when he dies. If he had died the same way that Dooku and Palpatine did, then there would be no ghost. But he turned away from the dark side when he saved Luke and finally acknowledged his true self, thereby letting go of himself and he died as a good man.

No, it shows that you aren't even paying attention to the films and care way too much about clean continuity like someone with OCD. It also shows that Lucas didn't have everything mapped out when he was making the films. Indeed, it is even stated as much in the behind the scenes books. He originally was going to have Obi-wan, Yoda and Anakin return to life. Then he nixed that and left only Obi-wan as being alive, but Anakin and Yoda as ghosts. Then it was decided that Anakin shouldn't be ghost, but the others should be ghosts. Then he decided to follow what Kazanjian said and thus Anakin is a ghost. Then when he came to the PT, he intended to explain it.

 

Lucas isn't saying anything about Qui-Gon's body there, he's talking about Qui-Gon's ability ( or lack thereof ) to appear as a visible ghost.

There's still no need for him to disappear. Even if the ROTJ script is ignored, Qui-Gon in TPM showed that disappearance is not necessary to become a Force ghost.

He vanishes noticeably more quickly than the amount of time we see Anakin lying there not vanishing ( as dictated by the original intent of the ROTJ scene, which was that Anakin's body hung around to be burned on Endor ).

 

He's also referring to disappearing. The two are connected. He says a corporeal ghost which means that he is able to interact with the environment. An incorporeal ghost can be seen, but cannot interact with the environment. Lucas states that Obi-wan gives up his physical being. Hence he disappears. Same with Yoda and same with Anakin.

You need the body to be seen and to interact with the environment.

I just counted Yoda's death, from the moment he goes silent to when he disappears and it is over twenty seconds. Vader's is thirty seconds. We also have Yoda knowing how it is done versus Anakin who is about to be taught by Yoda and Obi-wan.

 

Are we missing the fact that we can't see Anakin's body because ITS HIDDEN BENEATH THE ARMOR?? We don't know when he vanished because we couldn't see the body...because it was inside that armor. It wasn't like Luke stripped the armor off of him and laid his charred, bare-butt body on the pyre to burn it.

Secondly, as darth_sinister said, Vader wouldn't have known how to do it. Yoda and Obi-Wan had two decades to learn how to become a Force Ghost so of course it'd be easier for them.

 

The theory is that if Lucas intended Anakin's organic bits to disappear, he would have been shown fading, moments after his head sagged back: