Theory on why older fans love the OT, have some issues with the PT

First, I would like to commend Duespater for creating an awesome thread. I would also like to commend the mods at TFN for creating an awesome forum. (This will become the most popular forum, I have forseen it.)I would also like to commend everyone for their posts. You all have some very good thoughts.

I have been blown away by the PT so far, and it is integrating very well with the OT for me. I love both of them equally.

I was 3 years old in 1983 when I first saw ROTJ in the theater. I dont remember much from it, all I remember was seeing huge images of Jabba, and those aliens in his palace. I guess that makes me one of the last links of the first SW generation. I slowly started to like SW after that, but the SW Super Nintendo games really got me interested in the movies in 1992. (Those games were so much like the movies!!! They won the award for best video games adapted from a movie.)

I was one of the few people who had very low expectations for the prequels. I figured it would be impossible for Lucas to capture that magic again. Plus, the effects for the PT would look far superior to the OT, and it wouldnt match. Plus, the characters would be too different b/c of different actors. There was no way it was going to feel like SW being made 16 years after ROTJ. I thought Lucas was making a huge mistake. Plus, I was at that time in 1999 more of a Bond fan. I was starting to get tired of SW.

But I was pleasantly surprised. First, the opening crawl described an ingenous political plot. Then, I saw Ewan McGregor and heard him talk, I thought, "Oh my god!! That's Alec Guiness!!! Its Obiwan when he was an apprentice!! He sounds exactly like Alec Guiness!" At that moment, I then thought to myself, "This movie just might be ok." The rest is history, and I then fell in love with the PT. For me, it makes the OT even better, b/c now everything in the OT has more meaning for me. It seemed more dramatic.

Now I will respond to some of your posts.

Duespater, I think you are right about Lucas changing his mind about where the series was heading once he decided to make Vader Luke's father. This lead to more twists in ROTJ that a lot of the older fans didn't like. (Like Leia being Luke's sister.) This is probably also when he decided that he didnt need episodes 7, 8, and 9. (ROTJ is basically episodes 6, 7,8,and 9 crammed into one episode.)

Darth Horax, although I hate it when people complain about cgi, I will admit that sometimes Lucas goes a little overboard on it. But most of the time, he does not. CGI is one of the big reasons Lucas waited so long to do the PT. He needed cgi to create his vision. As for the flying droid you spoke of in Corusacant, it was necessary to make that scene all cgi. There is no place that you could find a city that looks like Coruscant, and even if you could, you couldnt get one that looks as big as Coruscant. Personally, for me, cgi looks pretty photo realistic to me. The only thing that makes cgi look fake sometimes is that it looks too clear and perfect, b/c it was made on a computer. (For me, thats a much smaller problem than being restricted with a puppet.) That's one of the advantages of filming with digital cameras. If you make all the real elements look more clear, perfect, and colorful, the cgi doesnt stand out near as much.

Also, Rhonderro, Deuspater, I dont think the acting or the dialogue is bad. Atleast it is no worse than in any of the other movies. If any of you have not read it yet, I recommend you read D. Trull's Phantom Menace essay at www.lardbiscuit.com . This is the best defense of TPM ever. He specifically defends the acting and dialogue very well. After I read it, I liked TPM even more.

 

Thanks for the compliment, rpeugh. I'm glad the thread has started some good discussion. And I agree with you, this is going to be the best forum on the entire site.

 

I agree that for those of us who were around to experience the release of the OT, in our minds' eyes we had created our own ideas of what occured before ANH, albeit unconciously. Then, when GL comes along and creates Jar Jar Binks we are all horrified because it was not what we had always imagined!!

When I first heard that GL was going to create the PT I imagined something similar to the OT but with Obi-wan, Anakin and Bail running around the galaxy going against the Mandalorians and/or clones etc.

The main problems I have with the PT is the lack of chemistry between the main characters. I don't care for Obi-wan - he deserves everything he got! I certainly don't get the sense that he was great friends with Anakin. I think he was a patronising, stuffy *****.

Also, I think the CGI is used as a short-cut in many places, rather than a tool to create what would otherwise be impossible. CGI looks too sterile. Couruscant doesn't look lived in. It's too clean and bland for me. There's not even any breeze on Coruscant. Anyone who's walked in a city knows how windy they are and yet Coruscant looks as though it was largely created in a computer - because it was!

I don't have issues with the Vader theory that started this thread. I think it's great to see the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin, particularly when we realise that Vader was once a normal teenager or boy. It gives the character so much depth.

Although AOTC blows ROTJ out of the water, for me ANH and ESB have yet to be beaten by any film in the PT.

 

I have always thought Return of the Jedi is the best of the saga. Nothing beats the throne room scenes, or Luke talking with Vader on Endor. Pure gold.

 

I have always thought Return of the Jedi is the best of the saga. Nothing beats the throne room scenes, or Luke talking with Vader on Endor. Pure gold.

Agree, agree, agree!!

Yeah the Ewoks are there for the kids, and yeah the stormtroopers suck. But those climactic scenes from the second Death Star are the omst tense in the entire Saga IMO, including the PT.

I like ESB the most from start to finish among the OT, but I always rank ROJ higher because of those amazing scenes.

And I am an older fan (soon to be 30. bleh) who loves every bit of the PT!!

 

I'll quickly point out that RotJ is actually my favourite of all the films thus far. The way everything is finally resolved and the wonderful battles in both space with the second DS, and with the ewoks on the ground really made that movie for me. Plus the emotional involvement with the final battle of Luke vs. Vader, just wow. I still get that great feeling on the "You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Great line there.

I'll also just let everyone here know that I didn't see the OT in theaters for the original release. I wasn't even born for 2 of the 3, but I've grown up on them.

When I saw TPM the first time I was blown away, but then after awhile, I got over the emotional high and started really looking at it. My biggest gripes are with Jar Jar, bad acting, and over reliance on CG. However, you're absolutely right, there are people out there (usually the older crowd) that just ream the OT without really giving much justification.

My idea on why this is has many pieces. The first is that the PT isn't following the "Heroic Journey" like the OT did. This cycle strikes a chord deep within us and that's why the OT became so immensely popular. This is one of the things that the PT doesn't have. But then again, it's not supposed to. The PT is a political manuvering game. It's all really just exposition in a 6 part story and the climax doesn't really come until the end. Therefore, the emotional high isn't anywhere near what it was for the OT.

Next, you can't ever compare to those rosy dreams of what it was like when you were a kid. As children, many people loved playing with firetrucks, and GI Joes (and barbie for the ladies out there). But how many adults do you know that, if given the exact same toys as an adult, would spend hours entertaining themselves? I can't think of anyone. As an adult, it takes much more to impress us because we've seen so much.

Third, well, the PT really just isn't as good. By no means is it as bad as some people will say though. George Lucas seems to be "selling out" a lot more with really terrible characters like Jar Jar. And since Jar Jar drew hate mail, Lucas turned him down and made poor 3PO the ass of all the jokes in Ep II. These worthless puns really cheapened the movie for me.

Also, I thought a great deal of the acting was just down right pathetic. A lot of people slam on Jake Lloyd but I thought he did a reasonable job for a 9 yr. old. However, Portman had a few really terribly delivered lines and Hayden was the absolute worst. I'm not going to bother posting all the reasons why, but as an actor, I can evaluate the work of other actors very well.

Another possible reason is that in a way, Star Wars has "been done". Much how many sequels have failed, this new set just can't live up to the novelty of the OT.

Those are just a few of my ideas.

 

Here are my reasons why the PT is not like the OT:

1) GL changed the story from being about the fight against the Empire, into 'Anakin's story.'

2) There is no history in the PT.

3) GL can't write scripts and Ben Burtt can't edit.

 

I am an older fan. I saw all three parts of the OT upon initial release (although I don't remember much of the first "Star Wars" screening).

Here is why I LOVE the PT:

1) It is epic in scope, and seems to be setting us up for the smaller look of the OT.

2) The effects represent today's state-of-the-art.

3) It shows us how the monolithic Empire of the OT comes into being.

4) Despite the mythological underpinnings, there is still plenty of time for comedy, both subtle ("Good job") and broad ("Peeyusa!").

5) It contains a good mix of old and new characters. Enough of the old ones are given origin stories or have showed changes from their OT incarnations that it is like seeing new characters. The genius of this is that their characters will be given more depth by their behavior in the OT. "Revisionism" at its best.

6) It seems to be the perfect inroduction to the events of the OT. Ep1 and Ep2 have really acted as Act 1 of the Saga.

These are only a few of the myiad reasons that I, an older fan, love the PT. Please remove me from your generalization, Deuspater.

 

RotJ is also my fave SW movie.

Emos-Edud, I think you hit the nail on the head on one of your points, which is one of the reasons I enjoy the PT. The expanded textures that the PT gives the characters from the OT. Now every movement has meaning, every pause by old Ben, every nod and look by Vader have a tapestry of motivations and history. I find that amazing.

But, discussing with some friends, I've realized what i consider to be the biggest failure of the PT as the first few chapters of the SW saga. They don't work as an introduction. Sure, you get introduced at some major players, but they audience is thrown into a world of Jedis and lightsabers without any kind of explanation. There is no explanation of what the Force is or what a Jedi is or anything like that. The movies seem to asume that the audience know what its talking about.

In ANH, the conversations between Luke and old Ben introduce the audience to the basics of the Force and what the Jedi Knights. The movie shows you how the world works, something that TPM or AOTC doesn't. I love the PT, but I feel the OT are stronger movies. The PT are just that, prequels. They don't work well as introductions.

When I have children and I want them to get introduced to the Dark Side, I'll show them IV-VI and then I-III.

 

In the PT, we are shown what the Jedi are and what kind of powers they have. In the OT, this is all explained for those who hasn´t already got it.
The PT is a great introduction!

Besides, if you see the whole saga as one film(which it is), everything will be explained for you before the film ends

 

The first movie I ever saw was Star Wars. I was 2 months old in 1977 and it was playing at the dollar theatre (which was like 50 cents back then). The original trilogy is my favorite movie ever.

And I very much like the PT, with the exception of 2 things: the dialogue (as many agree), and 2, the space battles. My favorite space battle is ROTJ. It's just fantastic, and they got those models flying around every which way. And since it's easy to do blue screen over a black background (space) they all look relatively real. More real than the TPM and AOTC space battles. I wish they'd go back to some of the miniature work in that regard.

The Picnic

 

Good points, Voija Risa, except I can't understand why you would think Christensen's performance was horrible. I thought he did a fantastic job... oh well.
Anyway, I think the single greatest stumbling block in enjoying the PT for many people is their inability to remove their knowledge of the OT from their minds. You must view Episode I as truly the first episode. Think of a person who has never seen the OT before - they won't have all these preconceptions from the OT in their head. For example, they won't get all pissed at seeing baddie Darth Vader as a nine year old boy, because they would not have the image of baddie Vader in their minds. They will just take what is presented to them: a nine year old boy. It really isn't that outrageous. Try to imagine it that way. Also, Ternian, you see, you seem to demonstrate my point. You seem to not like the PT because it is "Anakin's story."

 

`There is no history in the PT.'

May I argue this, by saying there is a future to it. It's the beginning, the last three are it's end.

 

I say Hayden is a terrible actor, because, well, he is. In Ep II his line delivery was mediocre at best in many parts and in the most important scenes (the garage and love scenes) they were just down right terribly delivered (not that Portman did any better in the love scenes).

Hayden also seems to have a different vision than Lucas of what Anakin is all about which is what kills the sound of much of his delievery.

My biggest gripe is definately the garage scene in which he plays several emotions all at the same time, switching between them with no time to shift. While it's entirely possible for a character to feel all the emotions at once, time must be given to shift between which one is focused on. His delivery was to much "I miss my mommy. I HATE THEM! I'm a bad person. IT'S OBI-WAN'S FAULT!" The way he switched between emotions was just pathetic.

With the love scenes, it seemed like he couldn't figure out what he wanted to do with them. In many parts he was very flirty and joking, and then at other points he was super serious and the justaposition of these two emotions made the character totally unbelieveable to me.

Also, a good deal of his lines (with the "Shoot him down!" while chasing Dooku standing out in my mind all the sudden) seemed over acted and unreal.

Many people try to say that he's a great actor and to prove it, they cite Life As A House as a good example of his work. However, in that the character he portrays is very simple without a lot of complexity, unlike Anakin. Anakin is a character with a lot of things going on inside his head (and with his hormones) and Hayden simply doesn't have the skills to effectively portray them.

 

Sorry, VoijaRisa, I just can't see it. Granted, you're an actor, I respect that and admit you have a perspective on it that I can't share. Still, I thought he did great. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 

I think Hayden just acts as he would in real life. In real life, you don´t think about what will seem most natural when you switch your mood, you just switch!
He may not be a well educated actor(or is he?), but he´s definitely got the gift and I think he´s perfect to be Anakin.

BTW: Ewan McGregor is also an actor and he thinks Hayden is great.
It all comes down to taste, as usual....

 

I'm only 21 so I wasnt even alive when ANH came out. Hell I was only 12 when I finally saw it on VHS so it wasnt that long ago in comparison.
I just feel the PT hasnt been very good so far. I feel that TPM was a dissapointment just because it was a bad movie. I mean there are so many good films that have been made over the years, whether its The Third Man, The French Connection, Back to the Future, Gattaca, The Shawshank Redemption, Donnie Darko, Born on the fourth of July, Jurassic Park, Alien, Star Wars,The Thing, Superman, American Graffitti etc etc.
I mean if someone likes TPM then thats great, but I think there are more interesting films that have been made over the years. I just find TPM vacuous and hollow.
I've heard that Lucas plans to return to doing films like THX and American Graffiti, and I'm kinda looking forward to it cos I think he is stagnating a bit doing the prequels. I really wish he had spent the 90's directing other movies, flexing his muscles a bit. I think Francis Ford Coppola said that Star Wars is only worth a tenth of what Lucas is worth as a director, and I think there is a grain of truth to that

 

I think expectations definitely are a big part of it. To be honest, I think some fans are a little too militant. They go overboard. Star Wars is an essential part of their lives, and so if they are disappointed, it runs real deep and they get all disillusioned. I do not consider Star Wars essential to my life. They are just movies. They have enhanced my enjoyment of life and they are some of my favorite movies of all time, but still, they are just movies. I went into TPM to see a visually dazzling movie with great action and well, simply because it was "Star Wars." I found all the elements of Star Wars movies that I always liked in it, so I was generally pleased. If you went in looking for a truly great film, like the Godfather or Citizen Kane or what not, I think you would be disappointed.

 

I'm an older fan. I was 14-going-on-15 when I saw ANH back in 1977 and it blew me away. I was enthralled, obsessed (and a total geekazoid in high school.)I loved ESB as well, and still remember the collective gasp in the theater when Vader uttered the immortal words, "No...I am your father."

With ROTJ, I was awed by the FX, especially the final space battle, but disappointed by the way Vader turned out to be just a pathetic old man enslaved by the Emperor, and I was a little peeved at Leia turning out to be Luke's sister, partly because I loved the love triangle thing w/Han, and partly because it just seemed too contrived and neatly wrapped up. Plus, I thought the Ewoks were too cutesy and too much a pander to little kids. And finally I thought there was something lacking in the dialogue between Luke and Vader. I mean, I guess if it had been me I would immediately have demanded to know what the hell is your problem, who was my mother and what did you do to her?! I actually only saw ROTJ once in the theater (not counting the SE.)So after that I kind of forgot about SW.

Then in the mid-80s I saw it on TV and got all riled up again, and my friends and I all agreed more SW movies would be great, especially prequels as Darth Vader was my favorite character. When around 1995 or so I learned that there would in fact be prequels I was completely overjoyed.

So I saw the TPM trailer and was really psyched. I saw the movie, and I experienced very curious feelings about it. I was so happy to be playing around in that universe again, yet at one point I remember thinking: "This is what I waited 16 years for?" Still, I enjoyed most elements of it sufficiently to see it three times in the theater. I kind of figured, well, it's all exposition, it's flawed by its very nature. I thought at the time, and still do, that the emphasis of TPM should have been Jedi vs Sith and the relationship between QG & OB1. Them finding the kid, and the Naboo blockade should have been peripheral. But of course, if I had been writing it, Anakin would have been 14-15 instaed of 9, and in trouble with the authorities on Tatooine for reckless flying. So there is sort of this inherent risk just in being an original fan because we have had so many years to fantasize what the backstory would be, and the likelihood of that meshing with GL's vision is of course remote.

Then came AOTC. My expectations were lowered, so that probably affected my reaction, but WHAM! There I was in the same theater where I first saw ESB, trembling, literally trembling with excitement because it was so good. I really felt like, THIS is SW, THIS is what it's all about. This is what I have been waiting so patiently to see all these years and it was worth it. Shakespeare it ain't, there's plenty of flaws, but dealing with things like that is just part of being a fan. It gave me that old thrilled-to-death feeling, and that is all what I want from SW. I have seen AOTC numerous times both on big and small screen and I have yet to tire of it. I am eagerly anticipating Episode 3.

Yes, the prequels have a different flavor, and they suffer from being, ultimately, a downer, since they conclude with the bad guys in power and the good guys (mostly) destroyed. Yes, some of the acting is lousy (I think what makes NP's performance so bland is that she isn't a fan, isn't invested in the character, and views the whole thing as just a way to get exposed and advance her career. I do think HC was pretty good though, I have posted plenty of glowing opinions of him as Anakin on these boards as it is and don't care to repeat here.)And yes, GL has gone overboard on CGI and I think also has sacrificed storytelling and depth to technology. But I guess in the end, I am so happy that GL even bothered to do these films that I can forgive most of the problems. Bottom line: I am an older fan who loves the prequels. I have even cut my hair like a Jedi Padawan (short, braid on the right, though it needs to get longer.)

Only 27 months till Episode 3...

 

I'm 18 and I've grown up on star Wars, my family loved I watched the VHS films all the time. So you can call me an Old Skool fan. And I loved ROTJ It's my favorite.

Even as a kid you know whats good or crap, you might miss alot of the production stuff, like props, clothes and Effects.

the OT had good writing, good action, good Dectoring and pretty bad production. Even as a kid you can see that and I still do.

But EPI realy sucked. Just plain bad Writing, and don't BS me about a Child's Eye thing. It does not mean that it;s made for kids as well for Adults, that it can have bad writing. Dude they had like 20 mid of pointless podracing and Jar Jar. A fart sencen. And Lucas can't dectored.

Clones was a little better but it lacked good Dialog. And some writng, came on were you not bored through half the film once the action was over.

I remeber films like GhostBuster from my childhood. I watched it recently and I noticed just how good writing it had and still funny.

Even through a childs eye you can tell whats good or not. The PT trys to lie to us, just BS through CGI to make it seem good. He siad it himsel. Lucas- "I tell my story Visaul not Dialog" or something like tha, dude you can't relie on CGI to get you through. Would Pulp Fiction be good with just people shoting at each other, NO.

A fighting Yoda can't fool me. Imagine or TPM and Clones with cheap effects like the OT would you still like?

 

I know that a lot of people disliked the Ewoks. However, at least they were cute. I wouldn't want to have a stuffed gungan doll...

Plus they were really creative in the way they dealt with the empire, unlike the gungans. The gungans were dumber than moss yet all the sudden they had all this advanced technology... Just doesn't feel right to me.

I think that's another problem with the PTs: The lack of great characterization. I've already stated how I think Hayden's interpretation of Anakin was not very good and then we see it again with the gungans.

Another thing my roomate and I were discussing on why people don't like the PT as much is that they had time to build up expectations. With the OT, we weren't originally knowing that there would be an ESB and RotJ so no one speculated on who should be playing their favourite characters and then were disappointed when someone else played them and it wasn't quite what fit their mental image.

Also, with Ep II, there were a few other things that really irked me. The major one was the whole senario with Jango Fett. Giving Boba a background like that, killed the character to me. The best thing about Boba in the OT was that you knew nothing about him. He was the enigmatic Bounty Hunter. Now we've got a face behind the mask and it's some ugly little kid (who can't act either).

Next was the Yoda vs. Dooku scene. I do have to say that I loved the idea of Yoda finally throwing down, but I'm a member of the SCA and spend a lot of time swordfighting and it jumped out at me that there was never one point in that fight where Yoda could have hit Dooku. In the fan films, people will refer to such things as "stick bashing" where the characters don't look like they're trying ot hit eachother but are just hitting the sabers together. This really let me down after Ep I's amazing fighting with Ray Parks as Maul.

Which brings me to another point on why people might dislike the PT: We don't have a real bad guy. Ep I, we have Maul. He dies. Ep II, they introduce Jango. He dies. We also get to see Dooku in Ep II which may explain why fans liked that one better. The only real "bad guy" that's stayed around is Palpy, but he's just a politician. Fans want someone who's going to pull out one of those lightsabers and bust up on someone. Ep III should really capture this again when we finally get to see the suit again. But the PT movies have had a definate lack of serious baddy which I think is hurting it as well. Killing them off so fast makes them seem like a series of money grubbing short stories as compared to a involved story going through time.

 

I agree, one of the bad parts of the PT is that there is no big villain around long enough for the audience to really "love to hate" him, if you know what I mean. I think this could have been easily accomplised by giving much more time to Darth Sidious. He only appears once in AOTC. He is almost an afterthought. The audience should always be thinking about his presence behind the scenes.

 

I feel that the one of the reasons some older fans love the OT and have issues with the PT is what I like to call the Human Factor.. If you look at AHN and ESB not many Aliens play major roles, Humans are the main foucus. You have Chewie n Yoda but thats about it. RTOJ, TPM and ATOC Aliens play bigger roles especially in RTOJ and TPM. An RTOJ and TPM gets the most negative feed back because of the Ewoks, Jar Jar, and Gungans.

 

Voija Risa, I will have to disagree with you about Boba Fett. I never understood why he was such a popular character in the OT. In the OT, he is just a man behind a mask. To me, he was nothing compared to Darth Vader. But I thought AOTC made him much more interesting of a character. He really is a little **** in AOTC. And I thought Daneil Logan did a terrific job of playing him. That look he gives Obiwan when he is standing at the door just makes me want to slap him.

And I also disagree with you about the villain issue. The point of introducing Darth Maul was that he wanted to show you that some Sith were raised as a Sith from birth, and to have a Sith that was an alien species. But, he had to kill him off, because he also had to have a Jedi that was turned to the Darkside in order to set up the turn of Anakin. It helps to not think of the PT as a trilogy. Think of episode 1 as the first act, episode 2 and 3 as the second act, and the original trilogy as the third act. Darth Maul is the villain of act 1, Count Dooku is the villain of act 2, and Darth Vader is the villain of act 3. Each act is a different stage of Anakin's life.

Another reason that there is two villains in
the PT is that Lucas wanted to create a dichotomy with Dooku and Maul. Maul is the scarier Sith lord that is a lot more phsyical and acrobatic, but not very verbal. Count Dooku is not as scary and is more of a gentleman. He is not as acrobatic but is very smart. He is also much more verbal. He is also much more decieving than Maul is. I thought it was interesting to have a Sith lord that wasn't a big monster.

You will notice that Vader is a combination of the two, making him the ultimate villain. It would not be good if the previous two villains were such good villains that they upstaged Darth Vader. But I think Count Dooku is still a darn good villian. In SOME ways, I like him better than Vader, b/c he is very sly and cunning. The way he uses the truth to decieve Obiwan is brillaint. Dont get me wrong, Vader shows examples of this decietfullness in TESB, but not like Dooku.

Also, someone complained about the swordfight scene in AOTC. I think the lightsaber battle in AOTC is incredibally underrated. Dooku may not be as acrobatic of a swordsman as Darth Maul is, but he is an incredibally SMART swordsman. He uses a couple of smooth moves to defeat Obiwan and Anakin. He tricks Obiwan into pushing Dooku's sword up toward his arm. Then, he gets Anakin off balance, which causes his arm to become a sitting duck. And I dont care about technical realities, that Yoda fight is awesome. And I do think they succeeded in keeping it from looking silly.

 

Jedi knight Pozzi,

I won't derail this thread with an explanation, but check out my Tolkein Vs. Glactic History thread. I dicuss it there.

VoijaRisa,

Hayden's acting suffered greatly from GL's editing. If you read the shooting script, you can see just how badly GL has cut Hayden's fine acting.