Theory on why older fans love the OT, have some issues with the PT

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Deuspater, Feb 12, 2003.

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  1. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Drop the comparisons and bashing of the PT and the OT and get back on topic.

    Go back, read the first post if you haven't already and comment on it.

    [face_plain]
  2. MrMan77 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Actually I've always seen the SW Saga as the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. I think the PT is just plain boring...
  3. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    "I think the PT is just plain boring..."

    I can't believe you posted that after I just put up a warning not to bash the PT! [face_laugh]

    Absolutely amazing!

    Other users: please pay attention to my wanings otherwise you'll end up banned for 48hrs just like this guy.

    [face_plain]
  4. Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2002
    star 2
    The technology was pushed to its limit to look as "realistic" as possible, while CGI effects are effortlessly made to look as "pretty" as possible. Now, he's just letting computers do all the work.

    This ignorance just HAS to be answered, MeBeJedi. Why are people under the impression that computers do all the work in CGI effects? Computers DO NOT DO ANYTHING! It's the people using them that do all the work. A computer, when it comes down to it, is nothing more than a paintbrush. A complex, technologically advanced paintbrush, yes, but still a paintbrush in all the ways that matter. Do you think there's a button somewhere labeled "make Star Wars movie" that Lucas clicks on and then the computer does the rest? I do CGI work for a living, and trust me, there's more to it than pressing "S" for Starship and then your day's work is done. I didn't spend four years of my life and 1000's of dollars learning to press a few buttons and hope for the best, you know. It takes a lot of time and effort and skill to get CGI effects to look good. It is anything but effortless.

    -JDR.
  5. Darth_Sillyname Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2000
    star 4
    This is a bit long. Sorry ;)
    I always read the same theories why some fans don't like the PT, but I disagree with the most common theories.
    I can only speak for myself of course.
    Let's see:

    It didn't live up to what I expected after 16 years of making up my own prequel story.

    - Nope. I didn't really have a lot of expectations. I hadn't created my own prequel story. All I guessed was that it would be about a great pilot named Anakin Skywalker who was strong with the Force, his good friend and mentor Obi-Wan, Luke's mother and how the Empire came to be.
    That's pretty much what I got. Except perhaps the good friend and great pilot bit, but we can pretend that happened ;)
    All the details...I was ready to be surprised by Lucas (and I was, just not in a good way).

    I look at the Original Trilogy through rose colored glasses of youth and fail to see that those movies aren't perfect and that they were never high art and that they were always cheesy/pulp/crappy/etc. So when I see the prequels, I obviously think they're bad compared to the Holy Trilogy.
    Sometimes in some forms also known as the 'George Lucas raped my childhood' argument...I'm glad this thread is civil enough to avoid that line.

    - Let me first say that obviously I have fond memories of the Original Trilogy. I was a child, I watched the movies, read the comics, played with the action figures, made up my own adventures, etc.
    It's obvious I don't do that with the prequels. I've grown up.

    But that's as far as the childhood argument goes.

    I figured out a long time ago that the OT movies weren't perfect movies, that they were not so great as I had thought.
    I never watched those movies a lot anyway (it was more the action figures and all the other crap), so my memory had turned them into endless displays of total coolness and greatness.
    A good example is the Sail Barge battle in ROTJ. It doesn't last very long and it's a bit lame (I didn't really say that, it's cool!).
    In my mind, it lasted at least 20 minutes and was the coolest thing ever. Same with the Endor battle with the Ewoks.
    I can only imagine that todays kids love the Geonosis battle like I loved the Sail Barge battle. I think it's pretty lame with a few cool shots thrown in.
    Anyway, when I finally watched the movies again, you can imagine my disapointment (I must say I still really like ROTJ).

    So when I look at the OT now, I don't look at it the same way I did when I was a kid. It brings back some nice memories, but that's it.
    The thing is, even when I watch them these days, I simply like the OT more than the PT. It's a simple observation and an honest opinion! When I look at the OT and PT movies today, I simply like the OT movies more!
    We are all different and we all have our own tastes. Personally, I'll take a Classic Trilogy dish over a Prequel meal anytime.

    In fact, I like everything about the OT more than the PT!
    Story, characters (especially the characters!), action, acting, directing, score, editing, fun...
    With the PT, I only really like the effects. Sure, the basic story is interesting, and some of the action is nice, and they're fairly entertaining movies, but I just don't like them very much at all. There's too much in these movies that I don't like.
    I can analyse everything (which is perhaps not a good idea) or just look at the surface, the differences are clear to me no matter what.

    These prequel movies are different, just like every individual Star Wars movie is different from the others, only on a bigger scale:
    different kinds of characters, different level (and number) of effects, different storylines...so much is different. Clearly some people are going to like one set of movies more than the other. I happen to like the older movies more.

    So perhaps it's better to just talk about what happens in Star Wars itself, instead of trying to figure out why some people like/don't like the prequels.
  6. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    Being that I was born a year after the realese of ROTJ in the theaters, I dont have the same opinions as those who grew up with the OT. However this did not stop me from finding out about it from my older brother who caught the tail end of the StarWars train. I found the OT to be a piece of entertainmnet that has affected my life more than any other piece of entertainment. It was somewhat of a spectacle to the first time I watched ANH. The PT was something that I did not even think about until about 3 years before it was realesed. Of course anticipating somehting great I was let down at the theater when it did not meet my high excpectations. I thought it may have just been the intial shock, but after watching it countless times, it certainly is just no the same. AOTC was a small step in the right direction, but it still lacked that undefinable quality that existed in the OT. Thats just my Opinion though
  7. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    I think what people are missing is that SW, being one long film, has to build, just like a normal 2 hour film does. What good would it do to have Darth Vader outdone by a villain in the PT? To have a cooler rogue than Han Solo? Those are the particular charms of the OT. The PT builds up to them and provides something else, different kinds of characters. As much as people don't like to hear this, kids love the new characters as much as we loved the old. Of course WE had perfect taste and kids today swallow anything they're fed by the media...that wasn't US watching all those awful 70s tv shows, nope...

  8. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    I think CGI became a sore point because there was no story to support it.

    Personally, some of the model and puppet work in the OT and other movies of the time (Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, etc) is far superior to what has been offered in the PT. I think PJ and LotR did a better job blending two arts into one.
  9. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    So all those awful, shaky, overhead composite shots of soldiers on the battlements of Helm's Deep look better than the Geonosis battle? I think not...

    Also, 'Dark Crystal' is far above similar animatronic-oriented films of the time such as 'The Neverending Story' (a wonderful novel, by the way), 'Krull' and even 'Return of The Jedi'. Overall, I'd say CGI works better now. And that coming from someone who prefers the look of Cocteau's 'La Belle et la Bete' and 'Legend' to PJs 'LORs'.
  10. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    First Stage Lensman makes a good point. Why the heck would anybody want the PT villains to be better than Darth Vader? What people dont realize is that Vader is a combination of the two PT villains. Vader is as scary as Maul, and before he was confined to his bionic suit, he was probably as acrobatic as Maul. Also, he is as verbal as Dooku, and as decietful as Dooku. He is also as smart as Dooku. So Vader is an average of Dooku's and Maul's strengths without their weaknesses.
  11. WellKnownCharacter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 2
    Its really beginning to annoy me this whole 'the preqels cgi too make up for a lack of story' what!?

    How could you possibly watch Episodes I and II(esprcially II) and say they have no story?
    Both of the films have a multi faceted story with several primary tales and underlying political mystery. Why do people have this bias against cgi? Its like the poster above me said-the artist working with computers today are no different than the artists making models of the ot. People need to forget that their watching effects and just enjoy the fun rather than saying '...Thats cgi-thats a model-theres some bad compositing! Theres a digital double!..' I think the cg is good enough for you too beleive those situatuations are actually happening and allows you to just watch the story. And you couldnt really hope for a more in-depth epic story that what you've been given.
  12. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    First Stage Lensman makes a good point. Why the heck would anybody want the PT villains to be better than Darth Vader? What people dont realize is that Vader is a combination of the two PT villains. Vader is as scary as Maul, and before he was confined to his bionic suit, he was probably as acrobatic as Maul. Also, he is as verbal as Dooku, and as decietful as Dooku. He is also as smart as Dooku. So Vader is an average of Dooku's and Maul's strengths without their weaknesses.

    That is an excellent point which I wish I had thought of first! :D



    I gotta add something to the discussion and that is that when ANH came out there was nothing, NOTHING out there that compared to it. It was new and fresh which might explain why the fascination of these movies with the public. The PT comes in a time when sci-fi is "mainstream" and the audiences are used to SFX. I don't think its possible for ANY movie to capture that feeling of "newness" and "freshness" as the OT did.

    Personally, when I sit down and watch the PT I just set my mind in SW mode, forgetting all about other movies I've seen recently and start giggling like an idiot.

    God, I love Star Wars. . .
  13. Deuspater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Very good point, Spike. Before Star Wars, science fiction was basically considered an illegitimate genre (truth be told, I actually consider Star Wars to be a fantasy dressed up in sci-fi clothing, but for most intents and purposes, calling it "sci-fi" will suffice). There was no Matrix, no Terminator, nothing like that back in '77. And considering that A New Hope's special effects STILL look amazing and very real today, imagine the effect they had on audiences back in '77 when there was no movie that had ever had effects even remotely as good as those in Star Wars.
  14. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    That's another thing Deuspater. Because people mistook Star Wars for a science fiction film, they got shocked when they started to see things like Ewoks and Gungans.
  15. Jedi_Satimber Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2002
    star 8
    I have seen all 5 movies in the theater on there first run....and I have no problems with the PT...


    I find that people that have a problem with the PT, usually have way too high of expectations for the movies...they have idolized the OT so much...that nothing would have pleased them.

    I have taken the no expectations approach and absolutely loved everyone of the films...


    Although, my least favorite is ESB.
  16. cvlegion Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    I honestly don't see anything wrong with the writing. I am sort of on a personal quest to figure out why I like the OT better than the PT. I like both, but I am a bit biased towards the OT (amazing, considering I didn't start watching Star Wars until after Episode I came out). If you look at both scripts, they both have the same cheesy statements that OT fans balk at. However, for instance, Harrison Ford was capable of carrying them. It is like Sean Connery and James Bond.
  17. Valkor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    ahh, the Zen of Beavis:

    PT = Sucks

    OT = Rules

    that pretty much sums in up.
  18. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    Well the PT is for me the same
    as when Led-Zeppelin would start make Hip-Hop music

    I consider PT as GL's private EU

    and I still wonder why he (GL) had to give the Clone-Troopers another outfit
    it would just be cool if they had the same as our lovely Stormtroopers

    (the helmets of the Clone-Troopers look stupid to me)

    just my 2cents
  19. Deuspater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi, with all due respect, what is the point of considering the PT to be "George's private EU"? This is a work of fiction, so the story that Lucas creates IS the story. Whether you like or not of course is up to you, but the PT is part of Star Wars now, so denying that the PT is true Star Wars seems kind of odd to me. What do you consider to be the true origins of Anakin Skywalker if not what George Lucas says they are? Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm asking the question sincerely. But even though I like the PT, I can sympathize with your feelings. For instance, I hate Batman Forever and Batman and Robin for ruining the good name of the Batman films. At least that's what they did in my humble opinon. Peace to all.
  20. Darth_Sillyname Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2000
    star 4
    I'm sorry to say this, but I have also started to see the prequels as some kind of EU.
    The Star Wars trilogy was a complete story from beginning to end (the story of Luke Skywalker and the fight of good against evil).
    The prequels are just how we got there. You don't really need the prequels to understand the original trilogy.
    It didn't suddenly change into Anakin's story for me.
    So it's a bit like the EU. Extra stories in the Star Wars galaxy.
    Sure, it's Lucas writing it, so it's official Star Wars, but I still see it as extra, not as essential.
    I wish I felt different about it, but I don't :(
  21. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    What do you consider to be the true origins of Anakin Skywalker if not what George Lucas says they are? Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm asking the question sincerely.

    Well the most disturbing things are that he makes things up without really think about it.
    IE : Anakin could have a Father (Qui-Gon , Palpatine,Dooku , or any other powerfull Force-user)
    Not just being some kind of "Jesus".
    They could have make it so that TPM was taking place in a few years instead of weeks (months?)
    so u see Anakin as a 9 year old in the beginning , and at the end of the film he would be 16 or 18 (more convienient to let him get a good relationship with Padme and Obi-Wan)
    Now that i talked about Obi-Wan,
    in ANH when Ben told that Anakin was his apprentice "and a GOOD friend"
    well theres nothing in AOTC that they both are good friends
    you just see a master and his apprentice.
    The podrace is just redicilous
    when he wants to show that Anakin is strong in the force , I'm sure there r other ways to show that.
    The whole stupid thing with the clone army ordered by Sifo-Dyas , he (GL) could really make up a better explaination how the Clone-wars should look like.
    The Jedi-Council ..... well they are semi-politics if u ask me.
    The only thing that i missed was a butler serving them tea in their Jedi-Tower. ;)

    Anakin build C3PO , *sigh*

    well I could go on a bit , but I think u get my point


    I wish I felt different about it, but I don't

    me 2 :(
  22. Scruffy-looking Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 3
    First, let me say as someone who fits into the older-fan category, since I saw the SW movies when they first came out in the theaters as a kid, I love the PT so far and how it meshes with the OT. No issues here! :)

    I suppose there are many theories why some older/OT fans are disappointed by the PT, but if you think of it, it was inevitable: whenever you have sequels/continuations of a story, some people are going to dislike the new. No matter what possible PT movies George Lucas made, a sizeable group of the fandom would not have liked them. Now, I'm sure people would respond to this argument by saying if only he had made **good** movies, this spilt would never have happened, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this--after all, I think TPM and AOTC are good SW movies! :p

    As a Star Trek fan, you can see this process taking place with each new Trek series, especially with The Next Generation vs. The Original Series. Thinking back 15+ years ago ( :eek: ) when it first came out, lots of TOS fans had eerily similar kinds of complaints about TNG that OT fans unhappy with the PT have made: the main characters are too wooden and have no camraderie, breaking continuity left and right, overemphasis on special effects that weren't as "real" as the classic ones.

    It's a no-win situation, IMO. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

  23. Deuspater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Very well said, Scruffy-Looking.
  24. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Deuspater, I whole heartily agree with you about the Batman movies. That franchise got screwed up starting with Batman Forever. Why did Tim Burton leave the series? And what the heck does that new director think he is doing? Bright colors? Florescent colors? Nipples? I mean, your watching the first 2 movies, and they are really dark, gray, and black, and then the next two are all colorful? What the heck is that? THere doesnt seem to be any reasoning in the story for this color change. There is a stylistic and color change in the SW saga, but that is b/c the bag guys are ruling. Its because of a reason in the story. See GL/prequel haters? THAT is what happens when the creator does not have firm control of his series. It all goes to Hell.
  25. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Sillyname, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I think the OT is much better because of the PT. More power to you if you can understand it without the PT, but I really couldnt, at least not as well as I do now. Also, a lot more of the scenes carry a lot more emotion for me. The stuff b/t Luke and Vader is definately a lot more emotional for me. I couldnt understand that crap that the Emporer was saying, like, "Use your aggressive feelings boy." I used to think that scene was stupid. But now its better b/c of the prequels, and hopefull episode 3 will make me undersand it even further. Also, the Emperor is a much deeper character b/c of the prequels. He is definately a much better villain, possibly better than even Vader. Who would have known that he was secretly posing as a Senator? Now we know just how clever Palpatine is. Vader's redemption is much more powerful because of the PT. As much as I loved the OT, I was starting to get tired of it at the time the prequels came out. Now I will never get tired of any of the SW movies.
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