Theory - Yoda and Obi-Wan fake Padme's death (no spoilers)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Dec 12, 2003.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    This is assuming that Padme is pregnant during Episode III, which is the most likely possibility.

    It's going to be Yoda and Obi-Wan and Bail Organa (and possibly Mace) who fake Padme's death.

    Why? Because they have to convince Palpatine she's dead as well.

    "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they'd be a threat to him" - or whatever.

    We have to assume that Palps knows Padme is pregnant.

    Knowing Anakin's strong connection (obsession) emotionally with his family, Palpatine wouldn't want anyone hanging around who could distract Vader from being a Sith.

    Either Palps tries to have her killed and the Jedi prevent it, yet still convince him she died, or else the Jedi fake her death - and possibly their own as well.

    This makes the Skywalker twins safe from the clutches of the Sith, yet undoubtedly Palps, whether or not he tries to have Padme killed himself, will use this to help Anakin turn to the Dark Side.

    Palps: "It was Obi-Wan who was responsible for Padme's death, Anakin - he was supposed to be watching over her!"

    Thoughts? Praise? Flames?
  2. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    I think Palps might have Padme killed, only b/c he has done it for the first two pts, why not the third.

    On a more serious note, I think Padme will not survive, and not live on Alderran, as if she was I am sure AnaVader would have found her.
  3. Sara_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2000
    star 7
    Yes, I've never felt that her death would be faked. If she dies in Ep 3, I think it would be for keeps.
  4. Stridarious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2002
    star 6
    Hmm, now you've got my mind thinking, and thats not a good thing 8-} .

    No matter, these things mentioned are in fact something that could be very well true, yet I also feel however that Padm'e death would anger Anakin thus triggering his downfall...so I'm torn as to what would really occur, or even torn enough not to be able to speculate on this matter :( .
  5. Darth-Cubicalis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2001
    We know that Leia was born and grew old enough to remember her mother, she described her to Luke, who did not remember her, in ROTJ.

    This leads me to believe that Padme lives 3 or 4 years after the twins are born and that Luke was taken from her at a much earlier age than Leia.
  6. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    I also feel however that Padm'e death would anger Anakin thus triggering his downfall... not so Stridarious

    You must remember this scene as Ben told Luke in rotj, at which point he was using facts and not pov:

    Kenobi - "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."
    Luke - "Yoda spoke of another."
    Obi-Wan: "the other he spoke of is your twin sister...to protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born"
    Luke: "Leia! Leia is my sister"
    Obi-Wan: "Your insight serves you well..."

    Then later in rotj, before Luke turns himself into Vader he asks Leia about her mother, and Leia describes early memories of her mother as someone very sad.

    from these two scenes we can fathom:
    1) Vader had already fallen by the time Luke & Leia were born.
    2) Vader didn't know Padme was pregnant, or that he didn't know Padme successfully gave birth.
    3) Vader had already turned, and Padme was lamenting the sweet innocent boy she once loved.
  7. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Hmm...good points, Ghost, but you might be jumping to conclusions. Of course, so was I with this thread, so...

    Note that Obi-Wan said "to protect you from the Emperor".

    That doesn't necessarily mean Anakin had turned. I'm sure by the time Episode III rolls around, Obi-Wan will be well aware both of Palps' interest in Anakin, and Anakin's friendship and respect for Palpatine.

    They know he has a great influence over Anakin, and suspect he might have plans for the Skywalker twins as well.

    Hmmm...but once Palps reveals himself as the Emperor, you'd think Anakin would have joined him by that point. I see where you're coming from.

    I still think Anakin must know Padme is pregnant - unless he doesn't see her for almost the entire movie.

    I doubt the twins would have already been born, although I suppose it's possible. But he'd be able to tell anyway just by looking at her.

    I just think my theory makes a certain amount of sense - both Anakin and Palps realize Padme is pregnant - and Palps will want to train the twins.

    Knowing Anakin's obsession with his family, if there was any chance he thought Padme or his kids were alive, he'd search for them - I know that for a fact - look at Vader from ESB on - he's obsessed!

    So I think either (a) Palps will try to kill Padme and the kids, to help Anakin turn to the DS, and to remove a future threat to himself, and Obi-Wan and company save Padme, yet manage to convince Palps she's dead anyway, or

    (b) Obi-Wan and company fake Padme's death to convince Palps and Vader she's gone forever.

    Vader would have nothing left except the Dark Side and Palpatine.
  8. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    This is assuming that Padme is pregnant during Episode III, which is the most likely possibility.

    I agree; I don't think the movie will start with the twins already having been born. It just wouldn't make as much sense if it happens sometime during the movie. It would add more urgency to all of Padmé's actions prior to the twins being born. She would have to be much more careful with the choices that she makes.

    ----------

    To your theory in general, I don't think it is too likely. The movie would be much more powerful if she actually did die instead of having a faked death. We need something for Anakin to get really ticked off at, and her actually dying would be much powerful on screen. Also, this would present the problem of what to do with Padmé...she has to die sometime, otherwise she would either be in the OT or in the EU. Plus, Leia already said that she had died. I just think that your theory is highly unlikely to be something that would be included in the film.

  9. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    "to protect you from the Emperor".

    Garth, buddy, your reply to my reply with this quote just spawned an idea or inquiry if you would. As you can tell by the underline I am focusing on the word Emperor. What do think are the possibility that before the birth of the twins, Palps has gone from emergency powers to outright total dictorial control. For this to happen he would need someone to enforce his will, especially against those, read Jedi, who would be against the fall of the Jedi. And who would Palps get to enforce his will . . . (Hint, it is not Dooku). Now this will certainly alarm & scare the Jedi Council, especially this involves the beginning of the Jedi Purge.

    I know i am getting slightly off topic, but I think this is the progression of the posts.

    Yes/no about Palps going from emergency powers to outright total dictorial control
  10. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah, I was thinking about this too. Tarkin says at the beginning of ANH that Palps has just disbanded the Imperial Senate - the last shreds of the Old Republic.

    So it appears he keeps SOME vestige of "democracy" in place - he wouldn't want people to think he was a dictator or something! [face_laugh]

    Ousley thinks Padme is sure to die in Episode III, I (obviously) am not so sure: who kills her?

    The most likely candidates are Anakin in a psycho rage and Palpatine.

    So how does she die and the twins don't? How come Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't?

    Lucas emphasized that: "I have no memory of my mother at all".

    And Leia vaguely remembered her as being very beautiful but very sad - I still think this points to Padme going with Leia to Alderaan.

    Anyway, back to Ghost's point: will Palpatine go from emergency dictator to FULL dictator?

    I don't know. Remember there needs to be a credible threat - so either, out of the ashes of the Confederacy, the Rebel Alliance is born, or else: THE JEDI.

    I was theorizing this a while ago, probably with MeBeJedi; if it was someone else, I'm sorry.

    People like Han and Jabba look down on Jedi and the Force in the OT. And there was that Admiral (Ozzel?) in ANH who made fun of Vader, to his face!

    The Jedi are obviously not only wiped out but discredited as well.

    Considering the Jedi represent peace, serenity, and order in the GFFA, you'd think the public would be against the Jedi being slaughtered.

    I realize that many/most of the Jedi will be killed from the Clone Wars, but there will obviously be a few left.

    I think Palps is going to convince the Senate that the Jedi are the real danger: they created the Clone Army in secret, one of the Jedi Masters was the leader of the Separatist Confederacy, and (presumably) the Jedi are going to try to "assassinate" Chancellor Palpatine.
  11. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Ousley thinks Padme is sure to die in Episode III, I (obviously) am not so sure: who kills her?

    The most likely candidates are Anakin in a psycho rage and Palpatine.


    I disagree. Anakin is more likly to go into a psycho rage because of her death, not go into one and kill her. I dunno, I'm having trouble following all the speculation that Anakin will kill her. What would be his motivation?

    Palpatine also wouldn't make sense. Whoever kills Padme is going to severely tick off Anakin. I doubt that Anakin would join Palpatine if Palpatine was the one who killed Padme.

    It seems more likely that her death is the result of either:

    1) Dooku

    or

    2) She is a casualty of war
  12. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Nah, it has to be personal.

    I totally agree that having Padme die would make Anakin fly into a rage - that's why I think Palps is the logical choice.

    He won't do it in front of Anakin or tell Anakin that HE did it - but that, say, Obi-Wan was responsible.

    I doubt she will die by Sith lightning or something - I thought it would be more like an exploding spaceship or building.

    I suppose Dooku is possible, but I have a feeling he'll be dead within the first 1/3 of the movie, so Padme would have to be killed off pretty early.

    I can't see that happening.
  13. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    But we don't know that Anakin would trust Palpatine's claims. Sure, he's frustrated with Obi-Wan, but he does say that Obi-Wan is like a father to him. I think he would have enough trust that he wouldn't think Obi-Wan (or any Jedi) would kill an innocent senator.
  14. AERYN_SUN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    star 5
    It's going to be Yoda and Obi-Wan and Bail Organa (and possibly Mace) who fake Padme's death.

    I've heard of the whole faking Padme's death theory before but the Jedi faking her death, that would be interesting.

    ~aeryn
  15. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    I dunno, I'm having trouble following all the speculation that Anakin will kill her. What would be his motivation?

    She's trying to hide his children from him ?
    She's allying herself with rebels who oppose Palpatine ?
    She's close to Bail Organa ?(he is the one who adopts Leia after all)
    She tells the Jedi of Anakins problems ?(no sexjokes please)

    more than likely, it's the first one. Padme recognizes Anakins descent & doesn't want him around her children

    Seeing how obsessed Vader is with Luke, i figure Anakin would be pretty upset
  16. TheWombat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Padme will die in the film itself. I think she'll become extremely ill, or mortally wounded. She has to live long enough for Leia to develop memories of her, before she dies.
  17. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I was extrodinarily hesistant to join this discussion, cos I already have many other times, but... I can't stay away... LOL.

    We know that Leia was born and grew old enough to remember her mother, she described her to Luke, who did not remember her, in ROTJ.

    This leads me to believe that Padme lives 3 or 4 years after the twins are born and that Luke was taken from her at a much earlier age than Leia.


    First of all, Padme is going to die. That isn't some spoiler, that's common sense. I always encourage people to think dramatically about things and about Lucas following a using a tried and true mythology. This ain't a new story folks. She has to die for Vader to be born. Her death severs all ties to the Light. Palpy can turn Anakin aganist Obi-Wan through careful, gradual and powerful manipulation, but Padme?

    Leia's memories can easily be explained through the Force. She said she remembered "images" and "feelings"... hello! that's a perfect description of Force memory. I do think she spends a bit more time with Leia while Luke is instantly taken away, but she's still going to die in the movie.

    It makes no sense for her to drop off the face of the earth at the end. The fate of every major (and many minor) character is shown onscreen. A disease? Mortally wounded? What kind of cop-out, "go out like a punk" death is that? Completely unfitting for the warrior Padme is.

    As for faking her death, it's possible. But haivng a fake death and then a real death seems overboard. There is no more perfect way (or perfect irony) than Palps having Padme killed and telling Anakin that it was the Jedi/Obi-Wan's fault. It kills 2 birds with one stone (so to speak). It makes sense.

    Denying the dramatic impact of her death onscreen for the sole purpose of trying to take the most literal meaning of a line said in ROTJ is misguided.

    As for Anakin killing Padme herself, I suppose it's possible, but GL is SERIOUSLY going to have his work cut out for him if he tries to do that. We're supposed to have pity for Vader by the end of it. And we certainly would not if Anakin killed his wife in cold blood. Again, it works much better dramatically if the scenario unfolds as I stated above- Padme dies in some sort of fight defending her children or her people- it's the only way Leia could have gone out as well- think of it that way.

    As for Dooku, he'll be dead long before any of this, imo.
  18. KNIRE_DARK Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    I look at this situation from the view point of West Side Story, one of the best films of all-time (which is a take on Romeo and Juliet, but with a different ending).

    Tony (Romeo) loves Maria (Juliet) and it goes pretty close to the way you might remember Romeo and Juliet going, until the end.

    Tony finds out that Maria's jilted husband-to-be (Chino) found out about their love and killed her. But that was only a foul rumour. Maria is really alive. The climax sees Tony wandering the streets in grief, calling out Chino, begging him to come shoot him too, when he sees Maria in the distance, alive and well. He runs over to her to embrace her, when he's shot by Chino and dies in Maria's arms.

    If you switch the male and female roles and put Anakin in the Juliet-Maria role, and Padme in the Romeo-Tony role (ridiculous as it sounds), then you have all the makings for some good drama.

    The twins are born in the OPENING, or at least half-way through the movie, so that Anakin can become a loving, happy father. They all live on the Lars homestead after Anakin is banished from the Order for marrying Padme. But Obi-Wan comes seeking Anakin's help, hence the "damned fool idealistic crusade" and since Padme is still a politician, she interacts closely still with the Jedi and Palps. So it comes to pass that when Palps reveals himself to be the Sith he is, and Anakin falls to the Dark Side (completely out of his want and need to be the most powerful Jedi ever), the Jedi devise a plan to fake the death of Padme and the twins to protect them. Anakin, thinking Padme is dead, calls out Obi-Wan much like Tony called out Chino. There's how the duel starts. But during the duel, Padme, possibly by inciting Bail to loan her a transport so that she might go to her husband and convince Anakin to return to the light side, arrives on the battleground and somehow is killed before Anakin's eyes, fueling his rage and turn to the Dark Side.

    Of course, this theory completely neglects how Leia is able to remember her mother, because I don't feel Lucas will due any drastic time progression throughout the movie, except in maybe the epilogue, but hey, every theory has holes.
  19. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Someone theorized that Anakin would witness the death of Padme´s decoy(Dormé or someone else) and believe that it was Padmé who died. If this turns out to be the case, Padme´s death will be the cause for Anakin´s fall and yet, she will live. For the moment....
  20. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I really like the West Side Story comparison. It makes sense. And it's a plot line that can be found from ancient texts to Shakespeare. Dramtically it works very well. I don't if it will happen here, but it's definitely something worth considering.

    Not too sure about the rest of that theory though...
  21. Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    The twins are born in the OPENING, or at least half-way through the movie, so that Anakin can become a loving, happy father. They all live on the Lars homestead after Anakin is banished from the Order for marrying Padme.

    I agree with the opening portion of this statement, that the twins will be born either at the opening, or even a 'description' of that birth in the crawl. However, I don't think Anakin will know of the twins birth... assume he has been away with the clone wars for a while, and Padme does not want to concern him with this news, have him 'slack off' or 'hold back' and potentially put himself in danger because of this knowledge.

    With Anakins 'downfall' from the order, it becomes necessary to keep the knowledge of his children from him due to the need to keep them safe. At the most, he may have some knowledge of Luke, but it is clear from ROTJ that he had no knowledge of Leia. Perhaps the seperation of the twins is forced earlier than we think.

    The point to this is, this opens the door for Padme's death later in the movie to 'complete' Anakins turn to the darkside. Perhaps an accident in the final battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan and Padme does a Gollum into the lake of fire.

  22. DarthDrew Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 4
    I not only doubt, it's an absolute certainty in my mind that Anakin will not know about the twins being born. If he had known about Leia, why would Vader be so surprised when she's revealed. Heck, why not a different relationship between them? What if we see Vader walk onto the Tantive's bridge and Leia run up to him, "Daddy!" LOL

    Seriously, I believe it's possible that the twins will be born during the Clone Wars microseries (I'm calling it Ep 2.5). If the wars last approximately 3 years and Anni is away at war the whole time, this would allow Leia time to know Padme and still not know good ol' dad. Ep III would open with the twins already being born and soon after Padme is killed. She could be in the midst of saying something like "Anni, I need to tell you - you have chil..." just like when mom died "I lo, I love...."

    And then as she's saying "you have chil..." the music swells and we hear music from Grease! "I have chills, they're multiplyin'!" Ep III, the musical! Sorry... just had to say it.

    I'm almost sure that Padme dies in Ep III. Consider the age that the movies are truly for. It needs to be spelled out.
  23. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Stop thinking one-dimensionally. There are ways where Anakin can know about Padme being pregnant and still be surprised when he sees them again 20 years later. Quite possibly he only ever knew of one baby. But what if he believes that the baby died in the same "accident" that killed Padme? What if he's told it died in childbirth? Wouldn't that just exponentially quicken his turn to the Dark Side? Even more than Padme's death? Hell, maybe he always knew Luke lived, that is a possibility. Vader doesn't seem that shocked when he finds out about Luke in ANH, the only rational explaination to that being he already knew Luke existed, he just didn't know he was still alive. Look at it from all aspects, not just the immediate- he couldn't know, cos he was surprised.

  24. DarthDrew Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 4
    Good points, but he certainly does not live and play with the kids. If he had, he would know that Leia was his daughter all along. Even if she was supposedly killed in an accident, she's active in the senate. Wouldn't he at least suspect something when he sees her again?

    Hmmm... How about a GFFA Maury? "DV and the twins on our next show! Is he the father? The DNA tests will reveal - right after this message."
  25. DarthDrew Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 4
    Does anyone recall if Padme was preggers in the first clone wars micro-series show?
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