Theory - Yoda and Obi-Wan fake Padme's death (no spoilers)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Dec 12, 2003.

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  1. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Aug 3, 2003
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    No... I doubt there's any time for him to play with the kids. He probably isn't there when they're born, I wonder if he even sees Luke (I hesistate to say he knows there are two). But that doesn't mean he does not see her pregnant.

    And no she was not pregnant in the cartoons visually, besides that would be far too early.


    I'm surprised that so many people don't know something about this... Natalie Portman, George Lucas, Rick McCallum, Trisha Biggar have all said something or other about her pregnancy. It's not even really a spoiler anymore as Natalie and George have both commented to the general public about it.

  2. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

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    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    But you're being such a nice person, you're not revealing the info. I appreciate that, RS_77. ;)

    Of course, I know exactly what you're talking about, but others do not, and as the title of this thread suggests, no spoilers.

    I'm beginning to think Anakin will know that Padme is/was pregnant.

    I doubt he will know there are twins. Vader didn't know about Luke in ANH - but at the beginning of ESB, he is obsessively looking for Luke.

    I still think the most obvious explanation is that he heard some kid named Luke Skywalker had blown up the Death Star - plus, he noticed that the X-Wing pilot in front of him was strong in the Force. Not too hard to put two and two together.

    I don't think the twins will be born in the Clone Wars 'toons. That would be...weird.

    RebScum, you're insisting Padme HAS to die. I don't believe that's necessarily true (I guess that's obvious considering I made this thread).

    I think Anakin has to believe she (and the kids) have died, but it doesn't have to be true in fact.

    Wouldn't it be more tragic to have Padme living on Alderaan with only one of her children, knowing that her husband has become the 2nd biggest monster in the galaxy?

    We've already seen Shmi's "two...days...till..retirement" death scene, I hope we don't get anything like that with Padme.

    Still, GL does like to repeat his themes.
  3. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Aug 3, 2003
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    I don't know how you do it Maul... it would drive me insane, knowing part of the actual truth. Moving on...


    It would be sad if Padme had to live out her life on Alderaan knowing what she knows... but it doesn't make any sense.

    - there would be SO many loose ends... why this? and why that? Why didn't Vader find her? Why didn't she fight? How did she really die? Obviously Leia was still very little. There's too many questions.

    - those questions would be left up for the EU to answer and (while I have nothing aganist it) GL would never leave the fate of such a huge character to the purgatory of the EU. He wouldn't even allow Genndy to put the romance in the CW cartoons. Can you imagine the frenzy over this??

    - there's no onscreen closure. What about all the people who only watch the movies? I don't know if they'd accept such an end. We know what happened to Luke, Leia, Han, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Shmi, Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Dooku, Mace Windu, Anakin, Owen, Beru... I could go on and on. Every major character has onscreen closure.

    - And I can't stand the idea that she dies slowly of some injury or illness over a matter of months/years. C'mon, that's such a cop out. She's a warrior. She will not, in the words of Sam Jackson, go out like a punk.


    Yes, it would be sad and tragic if she had to live to see what Anakin had become, but she will, for a short time, see that anyway. But that does not fit into the archetype of her character. All these characters are modeled off of traditional "hero" archetypes. She embodies Guinevere, Juliet, Desdemona etc. She will not just fade away.
  4. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Of course, I know exactly what you're talking about, but others do not, and as the title of this thread suggests, no spoilers.

    Not to mention the title of the forum. ;)
  5. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Ah, but what does "spoiler free" really mean? ;)
  6. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    In our post-modern global village, RS_77, truth is relative.

    And so is being spoiler-free.

    Thus, the problems we've had with the Rules in this Forum. [face_laugh]

    The old maxim "better safe than sorry" should govern in most cases anyway.
  7. Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Thankfully, I haven't read a 'spoiler' thread since they were all nothing more than theory anyway...

    Vader doesn't seem that shocked when he finds out about Luke in ANH, the only rational explaination to that being he already knew Luke existed, he just didn't know he was still alive.

    Exactly... I tend to agree with the idea that Anakin at least knows of Lukes birth, but not of Leia. He is completely surprised by Lukes feelings giving away Leia in ROTJ.

    However, there is NO surprise to his voice in ESB when Vader HIMSELF announces to Luke that he is his father. It is actually laid at Lukes feet to confirm this in ROTJ when speaking to Obi-Ghosty.

    The best explanation for this 'development' is that Anakin believes Luke dies with Padme in whatever 'accident' (theorize this event however you want) claims her life, and believes him to be the only offspring, which, as said previously, adds to the grief that pushes him over the edge into full-blown darkness.
  8. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

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    May 18, 2002
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    I totally agree that that would set Anakin off - but he only has to believe it happened, it doesn't actually have to happen -

    which would make it all the more tragic.

    I can see Obi-Wan trying to explain what happened, that Padme is still alive, and Anakin refusing to listen in an insane rage.

    Even if Anakin knows that he has a son (although one must wonder how he could know he has a son and not a daughter?), he must believe they are killed at the end of Episode III.

    We can judge Vader's reactions by the OT: when Vader finds out about Luke, he takes half the Imperial Fleet to go find him - he considers Luke THAT important.

    As I've said many times before, I simply cannot see Anakin/Vader letting Luke grow up without having any contact with him.

    Anakin has lost all of the people close to him - he would not be able to let go of Luke - indeed, that is what saves him in the end.
  9. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Maul-

    You haven't commented on the reasons I gave for Padme's real death.

    I want to hear your good reasons why she shouldn't ;)
  10. Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    I want to hear your good reasons why she shouldn't

    Because then she'd never be able to be a major character in the OT and...

    Oh never mind!

    8-}
  11. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I think I have posted several good reasons in this thread. If you don't think they're good reasons, so be it. 8-}

    Anyway, you call it the "most literal" interpretation of Luke and Leia's conversation about their mother. I would say it's the interpretation that the conversation as a whole heavily favors.

    The "Force memory" thing sounds like another one of those "from a certain POV" arguments, which is simply an explanation for a Lucas inconsistency.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad explanation, but why wouldn't Luke have "Force memories" of Padme as well?

    Doesn't Leia actually say something like "she died when I was very young"?

    I think the strongest argument in favor of Padme's actual death is, as you mentioned RS_77, that every major character has had closure in some way.

    And I agree that Palp orchestrating Padme's death and blaming it on the Jedi/Obi-Wan is the most likely scenario - in fact, I came up with that theory myself a while back - it makes the most sense. And it would be ironic - "you're the only person I can trust, Chancellor - everything always happens the way you predict it. You're always right."

    Yet I still think it would be even more tragic and ironic if Padme never died at all, and that she has to live with the knowledge that her husband is now a monster and she'll never see one of her kids again.

    Thus, my scenario as mentioned at the beginning of this thread:
    (a) Palps tries (again) to have her killed, Obi-Wan/the Jedi prevent it, yet use it to hide her and the Skywalker twins, yet Palps convinces Anakin she has died, or

    (b) Obi-Wan/the Jedi fake her death to hide her and the twins.

    I think (a) is more likely, but it's still just a theory.

    I agree that Palps having her killed is the most likely result we'll see.

    Y'know, just one time, I'd love to hear Lucas say "Wow, I thought I had this great idea for Episode III, but then I read this debate in the non-spoiler forum at theforce.net. It totally made me change my mind about ____!"

    It would make all of this debate worthwhile. :D
  12. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Thank you. :p


    Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad explanation, but why wouldn't Luke have "Force memories" of Padme as well?


    Oh there could be lots of explanations for that. Maybe it is to cover and inconsistancy, but I don't know. I buy the Force memory thing. I mean Leia couldn't grasp onto any solid memory. Perhaps Luke was born first and immediately taken away, but when Leia came Padme refused to let her go without holding her first. Maybe Padme did attempt to travel away with Leia, after giving Luke to Obi-Wan, and somehow dies trying to protect her.

    But again, not having her die because of this minor "inconsistancy" (which maybe it is, maybe it isn't) would be a cop out.
  13. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

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    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Fair enough, but isn't the simplest solution usually the best?

    The Force memory explanation becomes increasingly convoluted to explain twists in the plot.

    Simply judging by Luke and Leia's conversation in ROTJ, I always thought that Luke went to Tatooine with Ben Kenobi, and Leia went WITH PADME to Alderaan.

    Come to think of it, I always that little piece of dialogue was somewhat strange: why bother telling us about Luke's mother vs. Leia's mother?
  14. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    As I recall, GL really debated long and hard about whether to include Leia's memory or not. In the end he decided it was important to mention their mother.

    The easiest explaination? Tell that to some of the folks around here [face_laugh] ;)

    I think it will be explained easily. And it can be through my way of thinking. As I said before perhaps Luke is immediately taken away and Padme has more time with Leia before she is also taken away. Or perhaps it was her intention to accompany them to Alderaan but before, or on the way, she has to go somewhere and gets killed. Maybe she hears something about Anakin- a trap to lure her to her death. Maybe there's a moment before she's taken where Obi-Wan sends a imbeds a Force message in Leia's mind, so at least she will remember something. I don't know, that's reaching, but it's still simple and quick.

    I don't think any of those are getting too convoluted. But GL shouldn't take the easy way out anywhere, just to literally explain a line is all I'm saying. I'm sure the man has PLENTY up his sleeve that will surprise us, but we'll be pleased all the same. Stuff we never thought about or didn't think could work. Well shall see, I am definitely expecting to be surprised by things.
  15. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Maybe it has to do with the mother-daughter, and father-son connection. There is usually a higher/better connection with the parent of the same sex. Which is why Obi took Luke to Tatoonie, which is in the outer rim of the systems.
  16. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

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    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Good point. Luke has a strong connection with Vader/Anakin while Leia had a stronger one with Padme.

    Simple.
  17. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Now quick side Question:
    How come Vader couldn't recognize the force in Leia, especially when she refused to cooperate w/ Vader and Tarkin on the DS?
  18. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Who's to say he didn't sense it? But it would have been raw, unfocused and untrained, therefore no threat to him. If he didn't realize he ever had a daughter then he wouldn't see that as suspicious. He's probably run across "force potentials" before but there's no one to train them. He's interested in Luke's potential because he's his son, and he's going to be very powerful.

    Why didn't he sense that Leia was his daughter? I don't know if you can sense that through the Force, but I would think so. Perhaps he does sense it on some deep unconscious level and that's why he doesn't kill her.
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    UP. I still think this is a possibility.
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