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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT "There are alternatives to fighting ..."

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by There_Are_Four_Lights, May 22, 2014.

  1. VictoryClassWoman

    VictoryClassWoman Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Regarding alternatives to fighting, I found this in a book called Beowulf & Other Stories:

    "The exorcism of "Theoden King" [...] misses Tolkien's point. In the film we are presented, essentially, with a contest of wizardry between Gandalf and his fellow wizard Saruman, who, having turned to evil, has somehow possessed Theoden and who is finally exorcised from the king by Gandalf. In this show of strength Gandalf reveals that he is no longer Gandalf the Grey, but Gandalf the White, appropriating Saruman's erstwhile colour, the symbol of the purity he has now lost. The reason the scene is unfortunate -- apart from its simply departing from the book -- is that moral uprightness and freedom, and their opposites, are presented as imposed from outside. All that is needed to solve the problem is a powerful enough magician to impose his will on the situation. In other words, might is right -- a principle which Tolkien explicitly says Gandalf refuses to adopt. In the book, Gandalf persuades the king to relinquish the counsel of Wormtongue. This isn't as visually dramatic, but it is far more adult and, what is more, it is an important part of Tolkien's message."

    There's so much fighting in movies because it's cool-looking, yes nicely choreographed fight scenes are fun to watch and a "strong" character seems to usually have to be someone who does physical fighting ... but really, I would love to see characters resolve conflict using their words, using logic, using persuasion. Lying or Jedi mind tricks are more of a grey area. It's a bad thing but sometimes lying or bending the truth is the lesser of two evils, when the alternative is physical violence. But it's neat to see characters solve their problems in a mature manner without it being a boring movie. :)
     
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  2. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Ideally, if a Jedi truly is able to assimilate what he/ she has been taught and is able to directly and experimentally feel that all beings are part of the Living Force, then compassion would arise even for the worst of characters, and alternatives to transform them instead of destroying them would be sought.
     
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  3. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Interestingly, many of the Jedi during The Clone Wars were deceived. According to the Jedi Code, "There is no chaos, there is harmony." In context, this is explained as being in harmony in oneself and not letting the chaos of the Dark Side to cause you to fall prey to fear and the emotions of the dark side. (The Jedi Path). Because the Jedi during the Prequels were so afraid of the Dark Side, they betrayed this tenant and thus were plunged into the darkness headlong. Palpatine actually was not the greatest threat, it was the fear of him that made him the greatest threat. Had Mace Windu not been afraid of Palpatine's power in the Senate, he would not have attempted to kill him, and thus Anakin may not have turned to the Dark Side.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi is not exempt from this deception. Throughout the Prequels Obi-Wan is caught up in War, and then later in OT Kenobi is worried about Luke being "The Only Hope," and fears the Emperor & Vader's power. While caution and concern should be in Kenobi's heart, he since the Clone Wars has lost the harmony and feeds the Dark Side with his fear that Luke will fall as his father did. I am not arguing that Kenobi is a fool. On the contrary I am saying that an alternative to fighting for Kenobi could have been to not buy into the fear of the Dark Side and thus get caught up in the many conflicts surrounding the Sith Lord.
     
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  4. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I always thought Obi-Wan's line about "there are alternatives to fighting" was less him suddenly getting philosophical on Han and instead telling him "Hey, let's go hide, dammit!" "There are alternatives to fighting" just sounds less wussy. But he was totally saying to go hide somewhere instead of Han going in guns blazing.
     
  5. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Or even ... sometimes alternatives other than fighting can be more effective.
     
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  6. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Not fighting doesn't equal being a wuss either. Often resolving a conflict without violence is the mark of wisdom and maturity.
     
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  7. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    Are you saying that only the "dark side" is chaotic?
     
  8. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    To me the Code as stated is *unlivable*, it basically lies about the sapient condition and implies emotions are evil. So glad I'll never be a Jedi.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Yes. The Jedi, in both the canon films and in the old EU, never start wars. They respond to immediate threats and get involved to try and resolve them quickly and with as minimum loss of life as possible. A Jedi has master of their emotions while fighting. They are not afraid for their loved ones. They have no anger and hatred towards their enemies. They have focus and clarity of the mind.

    No, they don't think emotions are evil. They believe rightly that uncontrolled negative emotions will lead them astray. Fear of loss. Jealously over someone interfering with those relationship. Obsession over those attachments. Anger and hate for when something happens that is out of their control. The Force is fueled by emotions. That is why Yoda says that the dark side is quicker and easier. That it will join you in a battle because all you feel is your negative emotions. When Anakin fights Obi-wan, he is filled with uncontrollable anger and hatred for his former friend. To use anger and hate is to give yourself to the dark side. Look at Luke when he fights Vader at Endor. He is willing to kill his father because he let his anger and hatred carry him away. He's got a sinister look on his face right before he snaps out of it the first time. The next time he loses control, he's almost lost to the dark side but backs away because he realizes that he is becoming Vader. Hence looking at his hand and then his father's stump.

    But love is encouraged, only not at the expense of jealously and possessiveness.
     
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  10. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I agree with sinister about the way the Jedi code is intended to be read regarding emotions. Obiwan views Anakin as a brother. Yoda says that he will miss Chewbacca. Yoda is mortified when he discovers the slain younglings. These are not the reactions of people who believe emotions to be out and out wrong.

    I can see where others are coming from in the sense that this isn't necessarily what's portrayed on the screen, though, particularly with regard to Anakin and his attachment issues. Miss them do not? Mourn them do not? The shadow of greed? This sounds a lot more absolute to me and not very realistic.

    Anyway, I'm getting off topic and off forum!
     
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  11. There_Are_Four_Lights

    There_Are_Four_Lights Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 30, 2014
    After review, it is not clear that Luke was using a mind-trick on Vader. I could swear that I remember those fingers moving, but maybe it's just that the novel came to life in my mind.

    He turns his back on Vader, and his hands become visible in the shot, but does he actually move them, mind-trick style? Not sure anymore.
     
  12. Thuro

    Thuro Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2013
    EDITED OUT.

    Cool idea for a thread.

    Apologies to the mods. I quoted that before I saw your dismissal. Editing now.
     
  13. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I disagree. Lying is never necessary.
     
  14. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 11, 2013


    Sorry Cushy, I couldn't resist.
    :D
     
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  15. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    "don't let your personal feelings get in the way".
     
  16. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004

    All respect to your stand on this, Cushy. But how about where the alternative to being dishonest with someone is very honestly killing them?
     
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    With regards to lying.



    Well, in those terms, it is that one shouldn't let the fear of loss cloud their judgment. Anakin already had Padme dead and buried, when one of the tenants of Jedi training is that the future is always in motion. The desire to keep your loved ones from harm can easily become less about their welfare and more about yours, which is where greed becomes a factor. Selfishness, obsession and possession rears its ugly head from this.
     
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  18. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I agree with that in principle. I'm just not sure that those particular words convey that message. 'Don't allow your natural feelings of grief to consume you and cloud your judgment,' would. 'Miss them do not'? Not so sure.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It again goes back to how one misses them. Are you missing them before they're gone? Is all you're doing because they're gone and you're unable to move on with yourself? We see it as a slap in the face because we're normal people. We're not governed by a power that can control and corrupt us. However, as humans, we do have flaws and weaknesses. There has been a history of people who are unable to deal with their emotions and instead turn to something else to find comfort, though said comfort is just an illusion we become dependent on.

    In this case, Anakin misses his mother and the drawback is that he cannot let go of his feelings of failure and loss. Anakin transfers that to Padme whenever she's threatened ("Blue Shadow Virus"/"Mystery Of A Thousand Moons"), or when he has his visions of her dying in ROTS. He applies the same axiom of "I lost my mother, I will not lose my wife" and that gets him into trouble.
     
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  20. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I'd simply not answer.
     
  21. VictoryClassWoman

    VictoryClassWoman Jedi Knight

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    Jun 4, 2006
    I think Obi-Wan was just following the "know your audience" rule by phrasing it in a way that would avoid violence while not sounding "wussy" to Han personally (who has a fair bit of pride). That way everyone could escape the situation in one piece.

    What did Obi-Wan mean by "you can't win" if I remember that line correctly? Was it "you can't escape the magnetic field right now" or "you won't be able to avoid getting captured when we land" or "you can't win if you try to fight your way out"? I think I read it as the latter and that that's why he pointed out the existence of alternatives. When I was a kid I thought Han looked so disturbed or something. ;)

    Oh, do you mean "there is no emotion, there is peace" and/or "there is no passion, there is serenity?" I only remember reading about it from the older EU comics and books when I was a kid, and at the time I thought it was some sort of ancient "alien" code that humans and similar peoples tried to live up to when they created the Jedi. Is the code canon still?
     
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  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The movies mention the Code - but not in the same detail. Mostly as "forbidden things"

    "An apprentice you have. Impossible to take on a second. The Code forbids it."

    And so forth.
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Answer what?
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012


    I think it was a reply to this post:

     
  25. There_Are_Four_Lights

    There_Are_Four_Lights Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 30, 2014
    Kenobi distracts the stormtroopers talking about the T-37, getting them to turn their heads one way, while he escapes the other way. Another alternative to fighting.

    "They're for sale, if you want them." This is a lie ... a whopper, perhaps the biggest falsehood Obi-Wan could possibly tell.
     
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