'There are many paths to god.'

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TrainingForUtopia, Mar 11, 2002.

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  1. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one came to the father but through Him. So, he clearly taught that he was the only way to God. If Jesus was just another path to god, then I don't want to believe in that god, because that's a sick god if he would let Jesus go through what He did during the crucifixion process even though there were "other ways." Jesus prayed to God in the garden of gethsemane (probably not spelled right) that if there was any other way, that he would take "this cup" from His mouth. In other words, He said, "God, if there's any other way, then I'd rather do that." He knew the torture He was going to have to go through in the next 24 hours or so. But God's answer to Jesus was basically, "There's no other way. This is what has to be done." So, if you believe Jesus is just one of "many paths to god", then how can you believe in such a sick god that would do that when it wasn't even necessary?
  2. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I believe completely that all of us have fallen short of God's standard - perfection. And I believe that nothing impure can enter into heaven. We need to be cleaned up. I don't believe we can do that ourselves. However good our deeds are, we still can't attain perfection on our own merit.

    How many times have we said to ourselves "Ooops, I wish I hadn't done that" or "That was a mistake". So many times we fall short of our own standards, how much more do we fall short of God's standards?

    But I thank God that he loves us enough that he didn't just leave us to rot. Why should he do anything else?

    There's a price to everything that's broken. If someone breaks my stereo. Fine, I forgive them. But who pays for the stereo?

    God himself, being amazing and merciful that he is, has paid the price for our broken relationship with him. God is like a merciful judge who pays the fine himself when you don't have the money to pay yourself.

    The Bible says that "the gift of God is eternal life". Like every gift, you have to accept it and open it. If you try to give me a present and I say "I don't want it" and refuse it, do I have the gift? Likewise, with God we have to accept his gift of eternal life to receive it. If we don't, it's just as if Jesus never died for us and just as if God had left us to rot.

    Jesus said of himself "Whoever believes in him (the Son of God) is not condemned. Whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (from John's Gospel 3:18)

    I thank God every single day for Christ's sacrifice for me. He is amazing!!!


  3. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    TFU, awesome point. ;) Very well done here.


    GMM, I agree with everything you said. :)
  4. IAmTheDarkSide Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    Didn't Pythagorus think that God was just the ultimate mathematical equation or some such?
  5. DarthPhelps Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2002
    star 5
    Likewise, GMM.

    Furthermore, I would propose that Jesus' sacrifice is better viewed as a reflection of God's love for us, rather than an act of cruelty against His Son (ie Himself for that matter).
  6. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Well guys, i'm with you, i agree with all you said.

    So to add to this i don't think that those who kill saying that they will inherit heaven through it, are on their way to heaven.
  7. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I agree with Phelps. We shouldn't forget that Jesus said that no one took his life from him, but he laid it down willingly - only to take it up again. Wow!!

  8. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    And He had to do that...why? So that only those who wanted to believe in Him would go to heaven, whereas those who didn't could still go to heaven? I don't think so.
  9. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    TrainingForUtopia and Grand_Moff_Monkey,

    I have to say that I agree with you 100%. There is no way to God other than through faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, and repentance. While a person may be able to live a good life without faith and repentance, they will not receive a fullness of blessings that God has to offer us without them.

    As C.S. Lewis points out, either Christ was exactly who he said he was, the Son of God, or he was a liar, a charlatan and a lunatic. There is no middle ground. If a person wishes to claim that there are many paths to God, then they must reject Christ and his teachings.

    Kimball Kinnison
  10. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "how can you believe in such a sick god that would do that when it wasn't even necessary?"

    How could you believe in such a sick god that he would [insert biblical, god-ordered atrocity here]?
  11. No blasters! Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    //wonders where Ender is

    Yes, certainly, I would think most Christians would believe this, hence the name.
  12. McNerf-Burger Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 5
    It seems to me he would be a sicker god to send perfectly good people to hell because they didnt believe in Jesus. Are you saying Ghandi is not in heaven? This is of ultimate rudeness.
  13. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    McNerf,
    No one can prove if at the point of his death whether Ghandi accepted Christ as his savior or not. Therefore, you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions which may not have any basis in fact. :)

    Another point, God isn't looking for the easy way out from anyone. Sacrificing for all of mankind's sins is a rather major undertaking. God could've asked Jesus, "Hey J., would you rather pay me $2.50 and pay for all of man's sins or have to endure crucifixion, death, and ressurection?" How many people would have believed Jesus if he went around "Hey, I paid for your sins, I gave G, $2.50." How big an impact would it have had.

    God thinks big, and crucifixion, death and ressurection is a pretty big ordeal. Big enough to accept that such a sacrifice could pay for all our sins. If it was any less, we'd all be going, "Hey, it's no big thing, I can do that too." But, when you make the benchmark crucifixion, death and ressurection, then there's not a whole lot of people who could do that. And you know when they do, they mean business.
  14. Neon_Ninja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2002
    star 1
    At the risk of being the one Christian dissenter here, I DO believe there are many paths to God. When Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me" I believe he was pointing out his function as a member of the Godhead (trinity), not hashing out doctrine. People are able to come to God and it's because of the intervention and spiritual guidance of Jesus Christ. Whether or not the Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. chooses to acknowledge that is irrelevant. Christ died for everyone who wishes to be free of sin (i.e. suffering).

    So what's the point of Christianity? You get a personal relationship with the dude who made it all possible. Many if not most world religions that seem to have a connection with either the Father or the Spirit are very impersonal. "God" is not something or someone you can cuddle with. Not so with Christianity. Then their are the gifts of the spirit which almost no one seems to believe in anymore but are nonetheless available to anyone daring enough to ask for them.

    But as for salvation, no, I don't think Christians have a monopoly.
  15. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    You know, I think Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and anyone else who truly desires to be free from pain and suffering will be in heaven...despite the fact that Christ said that no one comes to the father except through him. My reasons for this are twofold. Number one, the verse does not say that there is only one way to come to know Christ. Two, this verse does not mention salvation or heaven, only being with the father. Therefore, it is my belief that one can come to know Christ or God the father HIMSELF personally in a quiet moment of contemplation or out on the ocean on a surf-board. They may not call him Christ or God the Father, because he didn't choose to reveal himself that way, but in my opinion it is him nonetheless.

    Here's a little support for my position and a little something for all of my traditional Christian brothers and sisters to think on.

    John 6:45

    It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.



    Edit: Here's another good verse on this subject:


    John 15:26
    "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.


    Edit again: Damn Neon_Ninja, you beat me to it! :D



  16. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    As C.S. Lewis points out, either Christ was exactly who he said he was, the Son of God, or he was a liar, a charlatan and a lunatic. There is no middle ground. If a person wishes to claim that there are many paths to God, then they must reject Christ and his teachings.


    You've forgotten the third option - Jesus never existed as a person at all. In that case, he wasn't the son of god, nor was he a liar, charlatan or lunatic. He wasn't anything.

    Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one came to the father but through Him. So, he clearly taught that he was the only way to God. If Jesus was just another path to god, then I don't want to believe in that god, because that's a sick god if he would let Jesus go through what He did during the crucifixion process even though there were "other ways." Jesus prayed to God in the garden of gethsemane (probably not spelled right) that if there was any other way, that he would take "this cup" from His mouth. In other words, He said, "God, if there's any other way, then I'd rather do that." He knew the torture He was going to have to go through in the next 24 hours or so. But God's answer to Jesus was basically, "There's no other way. This is what has to be done." So, if you believe Jesus is just one of "many paths to god", then how can you believe in such a sick god that would do that when it wasn't even necessary?


    God is omnipotent. He deems the sacrifice necessary, just like he sets up the structure of inevitable sin. To say "God was obliged to do X in order to achieve Y" is to abandon the concept of his all-powerfulness.

    But I thank God that he loves us enough that he didn't just leave us to rot. Why should he do anything else?


    It's God who constructed our inherent sinful nature in the first place! He set up a series of rules which humans would, by their very nature, be unable to keep.

    So to add to this i don't think that those who kill saying that they will inherit heaven through it, are on their way to heaven.


    It's fascinating, the number of people who will abandon the justification by faith alone doctrine when it moves outside the realms of the theoretical and is applied to situations in the real world.

    It seems to me he would be a sicker god to send perfectly good people to hell because they didnt believe in Jesus. Are you saying Ghandi is not in heaven? This is of ultimate rudeness.


    Exactly. Which is worse - crucifixion (which is nasty, but not the worst way to die) or eternal damnation?

  17. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Darkside you did a good job of ignoring my post and Neon_Ninja's post, but that's ok I still think you're saved.
  18. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    I beleve that there may be more paths to God other then blind adheriacne to the dogma of one sect of Christanity or another.
    I beleve to get into heaven you must be kind to your fellow man, forgive others if they have wronged you, and be accepting of others even if they are different.
    I dont know any other way into heven, but I'm pretty sure there are others.
    Im not sure if you can get into heven if you are a bigot, or if refuse to forgive others, beacuse the God I was told of forgives all.
    I guess that is where my idea of purgitory comes in, sorta like a cosmic rehablitation center. ;)
  19. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    1. God doesn't send anyone to hell. Hell was created for Lucifer and the other fallen angels. We all have the choice of whether we want to go to heaven or hell. Satan just wants to take as many of us down with him as he can before it's too late. Think of it like this: have you ever been at a pool party, and there's someone there who like won't get in the pool, so they're just sitting off to the side? Sometimes, everyone else will get together and try to throw that person in the pool against their will. But if that person is smart, they're gonna try and pull as many people down into the water with them as they can. That's exactly the same principle as what Satan is trying to do to you.

    2. "How could you believe in such a sick god that he would [insert biblical, god-ordered atrocity here]?"

    What does that have to do at all with whether or not you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? Or, whether you're going to heaven or hell?

    3. No one has answered my original question. If Jesus was just one of "many paths to god", then how could god be so sick as to let Jesus be crucified when he that there were other ways?

    4. No one can say for sure whether someone went to heaven or hell when they died. You don't know what God could've done in that person's heart in the last moments of their life.
  20. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    3. No one has answered my original question. If Jesus was just one of "many paths to god", then how could god be so sick as to let Jesus be crucified when he that there were other ways?

    Because this was one way. This was something that Jesus had to go through, for himself, and maybe even for humanity. It was his test and his burden. Just because there are many paths to god, doesn't mean any of them are easy. Each path is different and individual. The crucifixtion was the path Jesus had to follow. Our paths are different but will have their own tests.
  21. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "2. "How could you believe in such a sick god that he would [insert biblical, god-ordered atrocity here]?"

    What does that have to do at all with whether or not you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? Or, whether you're going to heaven or hell?

    3. No one has answered my original question. If Jesus was just one of "many paths to god", then how could god be so sick as to let Jesus be crucified when he that there were other ways?


    I answered your question with a question. God calls all people his children. If he could do all that stuff(I can name specific examples if you want, but there's really too many to list, and might get the thread offtopic) to his other children, is it such a stretch to believe he could do it to his 'special' son?
  22. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Only those who believe in God are His children, the rest are not. And the "attrocities" you call, was God defending His people, and when you defend, unfortunately someone has to pay. And those nations that attacked God's people, were basically calling God a fool, useless, dead, worthless, etc etc.

    And like He said. Vengeance is His.

    Like it or not, those are the rules.
  23. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    You've forgotten the third option - Jesus never existed as a person at all. In that case, he wasn't the son of god, nor was he a liar, charlatan or lunatic. He wasn't anything.

    I'm sorry, but there are contemporary sources (such as Josephus) that also reference the fact that there was a person as "Jesus, also called Christ". Josephus was a historian who lived during and witnessed the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Do you doubt that such people as Stalin, FDR or Hitler existed? Josephus was far less removed from Christ (in time) than we are from them.

    Josephus is a non-scriptoral account (and admittedly he does make only a passing reference to Christ) but he does provide a separate verification that such a person did exist.

    Kimball Kinnison
  24. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    R2D2, your beliefs scare me. Everyone is a child of God and has rights to their divine heritage.
  25. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    Well, Pena, I don't wanna get into it here, because I don't wanna get the thread off topic. I might make a seperate thread for it.
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