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'There are many paths to god.'

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TrainingForUtopia, Mar 11, 2002.

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  1. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    It's funny how some people believe that for God to be good He has to put up with crap that humans dish out. I'm sorry but God is a Just God, when he "created" man, man was to be as children to Him, but when Adam sinned, man was destitute. Man became a creation of God, meaning that He is the One who gives us life, but that doesn't make humans His children, we are His creation. Jesus stated that His family are those who do the will of the Father, meaning that not because we are created by Him, it means we are His children. The Bible states that we are co-inheritors of heaven with Jesus. But only through the belief in Jesus, NO OTHER WAY.

    Think of it as a father of a household. If the neighbor is beating up and bullying your child you will defend him, and i am sorry to say, God's justice is complete, He does leave us a way towards repentance, but if we as humans decide to reject that forgiveness, then in all fairness we HAVE to pay for our wrong doings. But humans think that in order for God to be "good" he has to abide by our standards of goodness.

    If you read the Bible, every single time when God was going to impart justice (or cruelty as you call it) He ALWAYS warned and gave everyone a way out and a chance to repent, but most of them decided to spit in God's face, but since God doesn't lie, he ends up paying justice to them. Remeber when Moses told the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, he said no, God warned him, through Moses of His power and gave them 10 demonstrations of His power in order for the Egyptians to repent, but they never listened, even to the point of chasing the Israelites even after they were freed, so God drowned them in the sea. Read the story of David, Jonah (In this case the people did repent and God turned His justice away from them, therefore they did not go through any suffering or hard times), Esther (in this case He is not mentioned, but everything that happens is evident of God's influence), Samson, in every single one, God warns and gives them the chance to repent and mostly it was about leaving the Jews alone, but stupid human nature is always to think that we are better than God, and we question everything He says, therefore we suffer.

    In actuality it is still happening, watch the movie Shindler's List, and watch how God helped the Jews, watch when a Rabbi is taken outside to be shot because he wasn't making hinges fast enough, the soldiers's gun jammed every time, and that is a historical fact. Watch in today's news how almost everytime, the stupid palestinians go about making a terrorist attack (remember 9/11?)(if you were God's nation, which i believe that in one way or another you are, but that is a whole different story) on the Jews in some way or another it backfires, one guy even blew himself up without taking anyone with him, because God's hand is over his people. And there are many examples of this.

    Now what would you do in God's place if someone wants to hurt your people, and they don't listen to you even after warning them.
     
  2. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Okay, since you wanna talk about it:

    You mentioned Egypt. Sure, God warned the Pharoah, but the Pharoah is by far not the only one punished. The people of Egypt suffered in all those plagues, and thousands, maybe millions, of innocent children died in the final act of 'justice'. If God had just caused pain to the Pharoah, and the Pharoah alone, rather than to those people who had no power to comply with God's demands, then your argument would hold up. But nah.

    As for the people attacking the ancient Israelites, were the Canaanite supposed to just roll over and let this tribe that they'd never seen before take their land? It's that kind of thinking that lead to the murder of the Native Americans, too. And if you're talking about when Israel was already conquered by the Israelites, and the various tribes that attacked Israel, let's not forget that Israel had done the exact same thing to the Canaanites not mroe than a few hundred years before. Not to mention the fact that God often ordered the Israelites to kill not only those who fought against them, but all the women and children of those people.
    And from the story of Abraham and Isaac, we know God gets off on people killing their kids for him(yes I know God stopped Abe before he actually killed hsi son, but the fact that God would even ask such a thing is incredibly cruel).
     
  3. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    Sorry buddy but if you had read your Bible, you would have noticed that ALOT of Egyptians left with Moses into the desert, because God was fair with the people of Egypt and gave them the option to believe in Him or to suffer, so ALOT of first born children were not harmed because they did as God ordered, and they followed Moses. And those that decided to follow the Pharaoh, suffered with him.

    And as far as Abraham, God tested Abraham to see his faith, that is why alot of people use the phrase "leap of faith" because you dive into something you dont know. Now put yourself in Abraham's place an his son's, they both accepted the will of God and went forward to do what He ordered, and did God let Abraham do that awful deed? that is why Abraham is called the father of the faith. Now look at it more as a lesson than as an act of cruelty, to me it says to trust God, no matter how crazy or off it might seem to us. As far as the Cannanites, i am a little in the dark about that one since it has been a looooooooong time since i have read on them so i can't comment, sorry.
     
  4. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    On the cannanintes story, i will use this as a good excuse to read on it, thanks.
     
  5. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    "You mentioned Egypt. Sure, God warned the Pharoah, but the Pharoah is by far not the only one punished. The people of Egypt suffered in all those plagues, and thousands, maybe millions, of innocent children died in the final act of 'justice'. If God had just caused pain to the Pharoah, and the Pharoah alone, rather than to those people who had no power to comply with God's demands, then your argument would hold up. But nah."


    Nine/11. The people in the WTC, as well as their families, suffered for the Taliban's sins. I hate to say it, but sometimes others suffer for the mistakes we make.
     
  6. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    That true about suffering, unfortunately, but thankfully in the Bible it's called a gain, it says "to live is Christ but to die is gain", it means we go to heaven.

    Also the Bible states that here in the world there will be suffering, never does it state that it will all be a bed of roses, but that is until Jesus's return, where there will be absolute peace.
     
  7. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 18, 2001
    A criminal takes hostages. Says he'll kill them if they don't pledge to serve him for the rest of their lives. They say no, he shoots them.

    Who's fault was it that they died?
     
  8. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    Satan's fault, he is the ruler of the earth for now, Adam gave him that priviledge, until Jesus's return when he takes the earth back. The only reason why the earth is still existing is because of God's children, that is why you still have a place to sleep, but when the tribulation comes and we are taken away the earth will suffer and then the end will come, the end of suffering for all that is.
     
  9. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

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    May 14, 2000
    As C.S. Lewis points out, either Christ was exactly who he said he was, the Son of God, or he was a liar, a charlatan and a lunatic. There is no middle ground. If a person wishes to claim that there are many paths to God, then they must reject Christ and his teachings.

    There?s even a forth option: that he was a Prophet, but nothing more. Unfortunately, his followers corrupted his teachings (either intentionally or unintentionally) and caused a great deal of misunderstanding. Fortunately, Muhammad(peace be upon him) was provided with a true account of what happened by the Archangel Jibril.
     
  10. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    "Fortunately, Mohammad was provided with a true account of what happened by the Angel Gabriel."


    Hmmm...
     
  11. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "There?s even a forth option: that he was a Prophet, but nothing more."

    Surprising that c.s. lewis, one of the main people christians bring up to defend their position, never cosidered this common sense option.

    Elaborated by thomas paine, more common sense:

    "I am not one of those who are fond of believing there is much of that which is called wilful lying, or lying originally, except in the case of men setting up to be prophets, as in the Old Testament; for prophesying is lying professionally. In almost all other cases it is not difficult to discover the progress by which even simple supposition, with the aid of credulity, will in time grow into a lie, and at last be told as a fact; and whenever we can find a charitable reason for a thing of this kind, we ought not to indulge a severe one.

    The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar not many years before, and they generally have their origin in violent deaths, or in execution of innocent persons. In cases of this kind, compassion lends its aid, and benevolently stretches the story. It goes on a little and a little farther, till it becomes a most certain truth. Once start a ghost, and credulity fills up the history of its life, and assigns the cause of its appearance; one tells it one way, another another way, till there are as many stories about the ghost, and about the proprietor of the ghost, as there are about Jesus Christ in these four books."

    Now back to the topic of the thread, in my opinion there shouldn't be a path at all. Why have a path? Shouldn't it be enough to just be human? Why isn't our criminal justice system enough to take care of wrongdoing? Why must there be even more punishment after death? Why punish someone for thinking, something that all moral people would fight against on this world? Why why why? And so on.
     
  12. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "Fortunately, Mohammad was provided with a true account of what happened by the Angel Gabriel."


    Hmmm... "



    lol.
     
  13. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "Do you doubt that such people as Stalin, FDR or Hitler existed? Josephus was far less removed from Christ (in time) than we are from them."

    There are still people alive who remember Stalin, FDR and Hitler. We have videotape and personal records. Jesus never wrote about himself, and neither did anyone who knew him.

    "Josephus is a non-scriptoral account (and admittedly he does make only a passing reference to Christ) but he does provide a separate verification that such a person did exist."

    The authenticity of Josephus' account has often been called into question, and with good cause. The most comprehensive historian of his day, Josephus wrote entire pages on individual beggars and cutthroats, and at one point devotes forty pages to the life of a single king. Jesus, who the passage's author calls "the Messiah," gets--one paragraph. Not only that, but the passage interrupts the narrative around it, strongly implying that it was wedged into Josephus' works at a later date.

    Furthermore, Josephus lived many years after the time of Christ; even if the passage is authentic, it's still hearsay. If a passage that brief and that questionable is a verification of the existence of Jesus, then Thomas Malory's Morte d'Arthur is a verification of the existence of Merlin.

    Additionally, none of the historians who lived during the time of Christ wrote a single word about him, despite his supposed status as a legend in his own time.

    "Watch the movie Shindler's List, and watch how God helped the Jews, watch when a Rabbi is taken outside to be shot because he wasn't making hinges fast enough, the soldiers's gun jammed every time, and that is a historical fact."

    What a lucky guy. Where do you suppose God was for the six million others who died?
     
  14. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Blasphemy!

    This is why my idea i brought up some time ago makes sense. Why didn't God send a Western Jesus, Eastern Jesus, Northern Jesus, and Southern Jesus, all at the same time, all across the globe? Not only that but he could have a specific God only language that he would deliberately teach to everyone, in order to prevent mistranslation. It may sound nit picky, but if it had happened there would have been no doubt. But it didn't, and so you have it.

    That's one thing about "many paths to god" that i haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to. This is the big time, the Son of God coming down to earth. The king of the entire planet, here to save us from satan. As long as you lived in the general vicinity of the holy land. What about the people on the other side of the world? They were chopped liver? Did god just think, "Oh well, i'll give them a pass for now until the inquisition convinces them how loving i am and they leave their pagan witch demon gods." What was so special about the Jews that the rest of the planet didn't have? Anything substantial? It makes no sense, why were they God's chosen people when God made people all over the place? Blah.

    Edit- Geist, they were just better people than the other 6 million, indeed favored you might say. It's in Schindler's List for Pete's sake quit being such a skeptic.
     
  15. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    There was only ONE language in the beginning but as you fail to read the Bible you are not informed of such. Remember the tower of Babel? there was originally onne language but God changed that and scattered the people across the earth, that is why there are many nations and many languages. Also Jesus died for everyone not just Jews, but He went to the Jews because that is His CHOSEN nation, but that doesn't exclude the rest, if you READ your Bible you would know this. And why is Isreal God's people? Because He felt like it (again we question everything because we want a logical, human, convincing, statistically plausible, humanly moral, mathematically correct, politically correct, evolutionary scientific, favored by the odds, etc etc answer), and also because in the Bible it says that He chose the most insignificant of all nations to show His power, and look at the Jews, they still stand after all this time and are the MOST prosperous people in the world. Need more?
     
  16. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    You know what, you're right about the tower of babel. But unfortunately i'm talking about something else.

    In fact i was talking about Jesus. If any time was a time for a universal language it was 2000 years ago. Why didn't jesus 1-4 have a specific, never before seen language for the sole purpose of converting the entire planet to christianity? What, God couldn't pull it off?

    Don't take things so seriously or get too offended, if it's not obvious i'm semi playing around then now you know that's what i do. But at least respond to the point i was making?
     
  17. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    What was this one language?
     
  18. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    Sorry i didn't understand your point, but like i have stated before, why do we want to change the past? if it happened this way, it happened this way, why didn't God choose another? i don't know.
     
  19. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I keep forgetting that it happened that way and is proven.
     
  20. 1stAD

    1stAD Jedi Youngling star 5

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    May 10, 2001
    Well, there exists the possibility that this never occured at all and exists today as part of the greatest fictional account known to mankind.
     
  21. R2D2-PENA

    R2D2-PENA Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 6, 2001
    I don't know which language it was, it is not stated in the Bible, and also when He changed everyone's language that original language must have been lost, i assume since no one could communicate with anyone else, they couldn't pass that knowledge along, and that was the purpose of God's confusion of words, that is what it was meant to be.
     
  22. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    No we've already ruled that option out 1st AD.

    Well since the Jews are God's chosen people (which i still would like a reason for, out of all the people on earth why them?) it was probably hebrew?
     
  23. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "I assume since no one could communicate with anyone else, they couldn't pass that knowledge along..."

    Then how does anyone still know about it?

    EDIT: Ah, but Hebrew is still around, you see. If God had indeed intended to destroy all communication between any two people, he would have had to eliminate this language from people's minds, or else they'd have gone right back to it.
     
  24. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I always thought it was just to stop the specif tower from being built, i didn't know it had global ramifications of making communication difficult. Actually if anyone knows i'm curious what is the oldest know civilization with a written language? Is it really hebrew?
     
  25. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    It's said to be Sumerian, which has written records dating back as far as 3100 B.C. (some time before the Tower of Babel, interestingly enough). Chinese is a close contender, with intact records dating back to the Shang dynasty (1766-1123 BC), and by some accounts the language goes back much further.
     
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