'There are many paths to god.'

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TrainingForUtopia, Mar 11, 2002.

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  1. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    I would still like an answer in substantiation of the arbitrary assertion that Jesus-as-myth theory is ridiculous.
  2. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Palpazzar: How many times must I say it? I don't believe I'm right.

    Let me take a step back here...

    MY point is that it is just as logical for God to have one path as it is for him to have many paths. You're no more able to say than I am. Do you disagree with this, Snowdog?

    If we agree on god's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence... I would have to say conclusively that this question is irrelevant. From where god is standing... all paths are leading in the same direction... from him, to him. From birth to death.

    You want to believe in the literality of the Bible... fine with me. You're entitled to that.

    I'm not bound to any preconceived notions of how god works, or who god is... my arguments have never been rooted in Hinduism in the practical sense. That is... I don't base my beliefs about god on the assumption that what Hinduism says about god is correct. The fact is, I don't believe in god in the way that Hinduism presents him. Then again, to be a Hindu, I don't have to believe in god in that way. Even if I were a Christian, I'd still be a Hindu. This is because I was born a Hindu just as you might say you were born an American.

    I don't have to "believe" in Hinduism... just like you don't have to "believe" in seatbelts. They're there. Either you use them, or you don't... or you use them some of the time but not all of the time. There's no requirement that I be completely devotional to Brahma, Shiva or Vishnu to be a Hindu.

    You still did not answer my fundamental question... if there were one right path, why precisely (and don't pull some Biblical scripture out of your butt to answer this)... why do you think, logically, an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being would even make such a distinction? Furthermore, how is it that other paths would exist in the face of his omnipresence? Why is it that all paths deal with a supreme being, but you claim that only one of those paths are correct?

    As I read it, you are assuming the certain existance of multiple paths. Now, as that is your conclusion, I see what you're saying. However, how would you expand that statement in the case of a single path to God?

    1. I didn't assume the existence of multiple paths... I only assumed we agreed on god's omnipotence... then I asked myself what the relevance of delineating between one path and multiple paths is... since an omnipotent being would most likely see all these paths as reaching towards him... in that sense, they are one to him, many to us. I'm not assuming the existence of multiple paths because I am a Hindu. I call myself a Hindu because of the same reason you call yourself an American. I don't have any scripture in Hinduism that pushed me towards a unified view... I agree with Hinduism because I always could never understand the difference between one path and another... at least after having actually researched what they are about.

    2. Your question seemed peculiar to me... because on the one hand you're attempting to break me out of the shell of subjective opinion... but you're attempting it with a subjective question which assumes that there is one path to begin with. Did you ever think to ask myself, or anyone else, "What DO you believe?" No. Why? Probably because your question is self-centered.

    You're asking me a question for the sake of proving your rightness. I've done the same... we all do the same thing here and there. You didn't ask me what I believe because you're not interested to know. If you were, you would have asked. You're really wanting me to hear what you have to say, and possibly accept it as the truth.

    I may be guilty of doing the same. But then, that's the silliness of debate threads... debates differ from discussions because people who discuss like to learn from what other people know. People who debate like to hear the sound of their own voice... and the only reason they listen is because they're waiting for the moment when they can start talking again.

    This is a debate... not a discussion. It's purpose runs o
  3. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    I would still like an answer in substantiation of the arbitrary assertion that Jesus-as-myth theory is ridiculous.

    D_S, do you wonder why no one has tried to post anything yet? It's not because there is no evidence. I could quote you Josephus, I can point out all the minute details that are accurate in the gospels, but I don't think it's worth the time. All I'll get is a "but that's not solid proof." If you refuse to read with an open mind, I'm not going to try and stuff anything down your throat.
  4. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Iella: I could post tons of stuff on Appolonius of Tyana and Mithras that would demonstrate most of the biographical details you present on Jesus' life were really borrowed from stories of other, previous mythical figures.

    So, your offering of "conclusive proof" by quoting Josephus is a bit of a paradox since there's enough historical evidence to demonstrate Jesus was really a conglomeration of other myths and legends (Mithras being the most obviously identical of them).
  5. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, all of the myths that the gospels supposedly copy are dated after Jesus' time, so if anyone did the copying, it was them. And you're really in the minority here. Any respectable scholar these days acknowledges that Jesus did historically exist. The only real debate is whether or not He was who He claimed to be.
  6. Frank Slade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1998
    star 2
    I'm going to regret getting involved in this...

    I'm a Christian. If I were to say that I believed that Jesus's sacrifice covers all of humanity, regardless of whether you believe in the historic events surrounding his life, and that the true test of salvation is a person's abject humility in the face of God's awesome power, regardless of how you, your family, your country, or your community articulates that power...

    a) how many Christians would take issue with that?
    b) how many non-Christians would take issue with that?

  7. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    I'm sure Christ existed as a human being. However, much of the supernatural attributes given to him are debatable... and certainly many of those aspects are echoed in Appolonius whose life not only parallels, rather closely, Christ but he existed about the same time. Furthermore, there are accounts that have shown both Appolonius and Christ having had visited northern India at some time during their travels.

    Now, just because Christ was born two years earlier, or so people say, doesn't mean anything because when the scriptural accounts of Christ were actually written isn't necessarily at the same time. As with the case of the Pentateuch having parts written long after Moses' possible life... the known history of Christ could have been created and/or altered well after his actual death.

    The historian Plutarch, for that matter, dates a band of pirates having practiced Mithraic rites in 67BC. Furthermore, Mithras is very likely a derivative of the Vedic demigod Mitra, who predates Christ by several thousand years.
  8. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    "I'm sure Christ existed as a human being."

    Okay, sorry, I must've misunderstood you then, because I thought you were one of those people who thinks Jesus never existed at all to any capacity.
  9. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    No, I'm just one of those people who thinks that the Christian claim of uniqueness based on the life and times of an individual whose biography has been "borrowed" (to put it mildly) from the pages of various other mythologies throughout recorded history is rather peculiar.


    :D
  10. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I just started reading a great book, "The Jesus Mysteries" that Ender told me about. All about the traditions and myths that could have been combined into the story of Jesus. Good Stuff. Unfortunately, they aren't serious scholars, they are numbskulls because they question whether Jesus existed. I guess you can't have a contrary opinion and still be a serious scholar. Good to know.



    Jesus Mysteries
  11. McNerf-Burger Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 5
    Behold the wise Hindu saying, "Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti," which is translated as "The truth is One, but different sages call it by Different Names.
  12. Darth Dradus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 3
    Thanks Nerf, too busy looking at the hand to see it's pointing at the moon.
  13. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    It is useless to argue with D_S he has no idea where he is coming from or where he is going, he has no evident faith in anything.
  14. Jedi_Cyana Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    I'm a Hindu...and sort of not. I was born in a family of Hinus, but the code that I was taught, was very flexible, even allowed us to believe in teachings and prophets from other religions, as long as we dishonored no religion. One Indian once said, "Water is water, despite the language." to explain the many paths of God.
    This means that although everyone has different beliefs in God, and have different Gods, they are all lead up to the same God, just seen in our personal POV.

    Don't hold anything against me, I'm just posting this, because, it just came out. I'm not forcing this on anyone. Just merely stating.
  15. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    "It is useless to argue with D_S he has no idea where he is coming from or where he is going, he has no evident faith in anything."

    [face_laugh]

    I think he's made it pretty clear that he's a Hindu. If you can't understand such a simple fact, perhaps it is you who it is useless to argue with.
  16. Neon_Ninja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2002
    star 1
    Hey all,

    I personally believe that there are indeed many "paths" to God. The fact that, at their cores, many religions basically adhere to the same basic beliefs and practices (i.e. there is something beyond and above the 5 senses, self-sacrifice, reverence of nature, etc.) points to a common truth. There is a God.

    Many religions and cultures have myths and legends which are very similar. To me this speaks of a common truth.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not naive. To be sure most religions don't agree on the particulars (theology), timelines, the basic story of how and why the world is in the state it is in, rituals, etc. Why they don't agree is a result of what aspect of God these religions have access to. Because I come from a Christian faith, I subscribe to the Trinity doctrine which states that there are three aspects of God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christianity focuses on the Son, keeps a safe distance from the Father, and gets freaked out by the Holy Spirit. Sad, but true.

    Other religions are very comfortable with the Spirit aspect of God (like traditional Native American Indians) but don't necessarily recognize the Son. Why? Because most Christians do a very poor job of representing Christ and what he was all about. Still other religions like perhaps Taoism focus on the Father aspect of God and embrace the infinite, all-powerful, unknowable, beautiful, paradoxical, nature of God.

    Like Christianity, I believe many other religions have access to God. What they have learned from and about Him deserves some serious attention from believers of the other faiths.

    I am a Christian primarily because I was born into a Christian church. However, I have chosen to remain a Christian because I have found the seeds of what I believe other religions have to offer within the Bible, although I have to admit that my church-given theology has all but disappeared. Modern Christianity is very incomplete, and in my opinion one must visit other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism in order to begin reassembling what 2 thousand years of organized Christianity has dismantled.

    To address something else entirely:

    It is useless to argue with D_S he has no idea where he is coming from or where he is going, he has no evident faith in anything.

    R2D2-PENA, what are you trying to accomplish with outright slander? This is exactly the sort language and narrow sightedness that makes nice, logical, reasonable people want to choke us believers. In my opinion, Snowdog is one of the most informed writers here on the Senate Floor so you might do well to deal personally, reflectively, and patiently with his positions before giving the sort of knee-jerk response quoted above. How can you expect anyone to give serious consideration to your arguments when you clearly have no interest in dealing thoughtfully with theirs?
  17. DarthPhelps Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2002
    star 5
    I think he's made it pretty clear that he's a Hindu. (Referring to Darth_Snowdog).
    Yes, this is true.
    In my opinion, Snowdog is one of the most informed writers here on the Senate Floor...
    Also true.

    Perhaps R2D2-PENA was referring to Darkside_Spirit, (the other D_S), who has made it pretty clear that he's an athiest. That would explain the 'no evident faith in anything' line.

    Confirm/Deny??
  18. Neon_Ninja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2002
    star 1
    Ah! Good point, DarthPhelps. But it really doesn't matter who was being addressed. The point is, as believers, we cannot resort useless slander. It is petty and only leaves people with opposing views believing that they have won the debate because, well, if all we can come up with is to personally attack the individuals themselves, then the argument for the other side must be better.

    It also makes us hypocrites seeing as how this is the opposite of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy Christ would have us practice.


  19. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    I stand corrected.

    Instead, I shall say that an Atheist is not 'faithless', only that their faith is based not upon a deity, but something else. Nature, government, whatever. It is no more or less a valid system of beliefs than any other here. An atheist knows precisely where they are coming from or where they are going, despite PENA's vastly uninformed opinion.

    If anything, it's Agnostics who don't know where they are going or where they are coming from 8-}
  20. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    no its agnostics who are smart enough to realize that a human mind cannot comprehend certain things in our universe :p
  21. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Sorry i havent come back to this one, but when i said there is no faith, i was referring to him saying that he doesnt believe he is right, but we are not right either, and he is a hindu but doesn't follow the hindu religion, he believes all religions are correct but christianity isn't.

    I mean all the previous posts were contradictory to each other, therefore what is his faith? and if he is right and wrong at the same time what gives then? to me it's like taking a position of just being contradictory for the sake of being.

    And i think my tone came out wrong, since i was just questioning those fact due to the reason that my faith was questioned despite me posting my reasons for my belief.
  22. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    I think he believes all religions are corretc, he just ahs a probalem with christians who think that theirs is a superior faith.

    If i got this wrong you can correct me darth snowdog.
  23. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Nobody knows jack squat. Agnostics are honest about it. Believers fight against it, after all faith is believing in something when there's no evidence to back it up.
  24. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    How Socratic of you, cydonia ;)

    Then again, Socrates was executed for heresy...amazing how such a simple concept is so dangerous to many people, even today.
  25. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    "Faith is believing in something when there's no evidence to back it up."

    That's very true. I think more people need to understand that, rather than trying to "prove" their faith to others. It's self-defeating IMO.


    "Nobody knows jack squat."

    As George Lucas said, "Even the cavemen thought they had it all figured out. But on a scale, they were at about 1. Today we're up to about 5. But what most people don't realize is, the scale goes up to a million."
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