There are no plot holes in the Saga

Waiting until the time was right. Darth Bane realized one of the key weaknesses of the Sith was the fact that they were impatient. So he adopted the Jedi belief of patience. This would serve them well as they watched the Republic slowly, but surely decay from within. When the time was right, Darth Sidious made his move. This is why Palpatine tells Vader that he has to be patient. If he isn't, then things will go wrong.

But Bane and the generations that followed all died having not achieved power, that's more than patient , where's the greed ? Generations will live and die all for the purpose of waiting until the time is right ?? it doesn't make sense, sure it's something the jedi might do because they're altruistic , but for generations of sith to live and die for the benefit of some possible future sith just doesn't work .
If you were a sith would you be content to wait and die all for the benefit of some guy in the future ? Sith aren't altruistic like that.

I don't keep up with EU , is there any stories about sith between Bane and Sid in the EU ? or any info/



Anakin Skywalker killed Darth Sidious, before dying himself. Because of this, the Sith were wiped out and the Force was brought back into balance. Darth Bane never counted on the idea of a Sith Lord turning back from the Dark Side, thus helping to eliminate the Sith Order.

Yeah I know, but I'm just pointing out that Sid knows a sith can betray his master.

 

If you're looking at it in the sense of time travel. But not everyone will do so. That's why I called it a weak arguement, because not everyone will see it in that light. I certain didn't.

Yes, but as I said, the circumstances are different. Chewie was a leader on his homeworld. Out there, he's just another Rebel soldier and smuggler.

And yet, that is the case. The only greed was when the Apprentice chose to kill the Master, otherwise that was it. They never fought each other. They just had to wait and all that waiting pretty much killed their greedy nature. It isn't until Palpatine starts his rise to power and looking at a replacement for Maul, that the greed factor kicks in. By then, the Sith had control and were fighting to keep it. When the Sith have nothing, they are not greedy. When they are afraid to lose their power, does greed become a factor.

Nope. There's very little after Darth Bane's death and the time period when his Apprentice Darth Zannah, took over as Dark Lord. A couple of names here and there. The possibility that the Sith did try to re-emerge shortly after Bane's death, but that has yet to be confirmed officially. "Path To Destruction" tells the story of Bane's origin. It might cover what happened afterwards. The next time we check in on the Sith, after the Russan reformation, is when Darth Sidious sends Darth Maul out to kill members of the Black Sun organization. Plaugies is only referenced in LOE, ROTS and DL. Mostly in passing, with only bits and pieces of information outside of ROTS.

 

>>> Can I get a show of hands? Who has a problem with Anakin being called a pilot in TPM?<<<

I've never really had that problem. The term pilot is pretty broad, actually. Riverboat captains were called pilots, so too were the masters of dirigibles and some other very clumsy, not very sexy vehicles. Star Wars is a stew of so many influences (yeah, modern North American archetype first and foremost, but not so much that we can't broaden our interpretations, you know, just a little bit).

For me, it's never been an issue. Just One More Thing.

To me, the 'One More Thing' category houses all the stuff that would be let slide in an instant if a person were happier with the broader quality of the movie. The "Jedi Master who instructed me" fooferall is One More Thing. Like Obi-Wan's OT descriptions of Anakin above, it's easy to tell that something else was originally intended, but it's just as easy to let go what you thought you knew because of a perfectly admissible logical jump: i.e. because one was taught by a master does not mean one has not had more than one master, etc.

I find the majority of "plot holes" stick pretty close to One More Thing territory. The other three categories for me, I suppose, would be:

Never Was A Plot Hole. These are mostly lines of dialogue with very cliche story sentiments behind them, that people took literally. "You Father wanted you to have this ...", for instance. Even when I was six years old in 1977, that never sounded to me like anything but a well-meaning old man trying to interest a younger man is his father's trade. And "Ah yes, a Jedi's weapon...", which still sounds to me like nothing more than hero-baiting by the bad guy.

Yes, Virginia, A Big Gaping Plot Hole. Leia's memories, of course. Vader's cowardly lackyism is ROTJ and Dooku's in Sith. And a couple of other, more minor things. Yes, it's possible to come up with explanations, "The Force did this ..." or "In the presence of their masters, they couldn't ..." but the movies do not. That's all that needs to be said: the movies do not. They leave a vital clues left ungiven. I think this must come down to: if you enjoy the ride, you wont be bothered being left to wonder. If you didn't, you have every right to feel a little more irked yet.

The last category is VERY commong: it's Not A Plot Hole, Just a Severe Kick To The Balls Of Story Aesthetics For No Good Reason. In no way are these things actively plot holes, but they're ill-conceived, cheap ways of getting through the story, and thus very often identified by too-hurt fans as plot holes. Threepio's stay with the Larses, for one. Padme's intuiting that Dooku wants to kill her (thinking that's WAY outside of the box to say the least) when no part of the AOTC plot ends up turning on the point, anyway. R2's rockets. Anakin's dream of ending slavery. Qui-Gon's mention at the end of Revenge.

There are a lot of these--thanks mostly, one suspects, to the "paint a little, stand back, paint a little more, stand back again" technique that Lucas admitted to employing this go round. To be expected, I guess.

 

If you're looking at it in the sense of time travel. But not everyone will do so. That's why I called it a weak arguement, because not everyone will see it in that light. I certain didn't.

You're still missing the point. What was the final SW movie made and released in theaters?


Yes, but as I said, the circumstances are different. Chewie was a leader on his homeworld. Out there, he's just another Rebel soldier and smuggler.

Wasn't he some sort of political and/or military leader in the Clone Wars? Were these not the people who were heading up the Rebellion?

 

Yes, I know. But again, not everyone is going to see this in a time travel type way. They're just seeing a story set before the others.

Nope, he wasn't a political figure, as far as I am aware of. That was a different Wookiee. He was just a military co-leader, during the two or three Battles of Kashyyyk. The Rebellion was being headed up by Alderaan, Chandillia (sp), Corellia, Kuat, Sullust, Dac and a few other systems. Humans, Sullustians, Mon Calamari, Ishi Tibs and some others. With soldiers from both the Alliance based worlds, the Outer Rim and former Imperials. Kashyyyk became occupied after Order 66, thus they couldn't help out during the Clone Wars. Chewie got offworld before that happened and eventually hooked up with Han, to be a smuggler. This is why we never see other Wookiees in the OT.

 

And yet, that is the case. The only greed was when the Apprentice chose to kill the Master, otherwise that was it. They never fought each other. They just had to wait and all that waiting pretty much killed their greedy nature. It isn't until Palpatine starts his rise to power and looking at a replacement for Maul, that the greed factor kicks in. By then, the Sith had control and were fighting to keep it. When the Sith have nothing, they are not greedy. When they are afraid to lose their power, does greed become a factor.


"When the Sith have nothing, they are not greedy"

What are these people - lazy hippies?
I thought the sith were driven by their passions, by their own selfish desires for power etc. darkside emotions if those pasions had died away then what kept it going?
I mean imagine it's 500 years ago and the apprentice says:
"what are we doing again?"
and the master responds:
"well, we're sith, and we ... y'know wanna rule the galaxy and we're driven by passion and lust for power ... I think . and ... *sigh*, y'know what , I can't remember anymore . "

If they lost their greedy desires then how's it gonna keep going?

no wonder there are no stories about them in the 1000 year gap .

 

Hey, gez. I have to admit, that was pretty funny.



- TOSCHISTATION

 

The Sith had their hate, controled by their patience. It was the only way to go. These two things kept them going for all that time.

 

Yeah, its seems that the Sith became mindful/patient. Lucky for them the Jedi after all the years of their dominance obviously failed to realize the Sith still survived.

 

Yes, I know. But again, not everyone is going to see this in a time travel type way. They're just seeing a story set before the others.

It's not a matter of when it was set, but when it was told. Stories told after what happen before tend to pull charactes from the original story merely because they were in the original story, as you said earlier, usually due to fan expectation.


"Wasn't he some sort of political and/or military leader in the Clone Wars? Were these not the people who were heading up the Rebellion?"

Nope, he wasn't a political figure, as far as I am aware of. That was a different Wookiee. He was just a military co-leader

Which was my point. I wasn't sure which of the two he was, but I was guessing military co-leader, as you said. So he was a military leader in one intergalactic war, but suddenly in another intergalactic war he's just some guy.

Tatooine isn't a leading Rebellion world, yet a young farmboy from there is given leadership status because he demonstrated his abilities to be one. Lando does some cool stuff in a battle once and they make him general in in the greatest space battle they've engaged in thus far. Chewie help leads the defense against the Seperatists, helps the last of the Jedi escape Order 66, helps rescue the Princess and destroy the Death Star along with Han and Luke, and for that he gets the rank of team mascott.

 

Hi, Darth-Stryphe.

Well, with that last part, you seem to acknowledge that the "Chewie problem" goes back to the Original Trilogy.......



- TOSCHISTATION

 

Hi Toschi,
The Chewie problem goes back to ANH when he doesn't get a medal. However, in the context of the OT alone, one can assume Chewie wasn't cut out for leadership and just accept that, but then we see ROTS and realize Chewie already had a healthy war record with leadership experience prior to ever meeting Ben.

 

Luke joined the Alliance officially once he arrived on Yavin 4. He recieved the rank of Commander after two years of service, working his way up to it. Han did not join the Alliance until they arrived at Sullust, at which time he was made General and voluntered to lead the mission to Endor. Lando officially joined and was made General, because as he said, someone probably heard about what he did at Taanab. Chewie joined the Alliance at the same time Han did, officially, but as far was we know he was not given a rank. Han being identified as Captain Solo refers to his being captain of his own ship. Perhaps Chewie didn't want a rank. He didn't have one on Kashyyyk.

 

True, true.





- TOSCHISTATION

 

GL and/or LFL may be saying Han had no standing/position in the Alliance until ROTJ, but I don't buy it. The interaction in Hoth ESB's segment alone tells us all we need to know. When you're a part of an illegal originization that doesn't official exists, you're as official as you want to be. Han was pretty official in ESB.

 

Yep.









- TOSCHISTATION

 

Can't we all just get along and be friends? isn't that what George wants us to do? let's all take a deep breath and hug..

 

Han had rankings, ergo he was not official. He was there to help only because he was being paid to, because he wanted to get with Leia and didn't mind hanging out with Luke. As Han said, he wasn't there for their revolution. He was their to be rewarded. He only stayed because he liked a couple of people. He didn't join the military itself until his debt with Jabba was cancelled.

 

For me, it's never been an issue. Just One More Thing.

To me, the 'One More Thing' category houses all the stuff that would be let slide in an instant if a person were happier with the broader quality of the movie. The "Jedi Master who instructed me" fooferall is One More Thing. Like Obi-Wan's OT descriptions of Anakin above, it's easy to tell that something else was originally intended, but it's just as easy to let go what you thought you knew because of a perfectly admissible logical jump: i.e. because one was taught by a master does not mean one has not had more than one master, etc.

I find the majority of "plot holes" stick pretty close to One More Thing territory. The other three categories for me, I suppose, would be:

Never Was A Plot Hole. These are mostly lines of dialogue with very cliche story sentiments behind them, that people took literally. "You Father wanted you to have this ...", for instance. Even when I was six years old in 1977, that never sounded to me like anything but a well-meaning old man trying to interest a younger man is his father's trade. And "Ah yes, a Jedi's weapon...", which still sounds to me like nothing more than hero-baiting by the bad guy.

Yes, Virginia, A Big Gaping Plot Hole. Leia's memories, of course. Vader's cowardly lackyism is ROTJ and Dooku's in Sith. And a couple of other, more minor things. Yes, it's possible to come up with explanations, "The Force did this ..." or "In the presence of their masters, they couldn't ..." but the movies do not. That's all that needs to be said: the movies do not. They leave a vital clues left ungiven. I think this must come down to: if you enjoy the ride, you wont be bothered being left to wonder. If you didn't, you have every right to feel a little more irked yet.

The last category is VERY commong: it's Not A Plot Hole, Just a Severe Kick To The Balls Of Story Aesthetics For No Good Reason. In no way are these things actively plot holes, but they're ill-conceived, cheap ways of getting through the story, and thus very often identified by too-hurt fans as plot holes. Threepio's stay with the Larses, for one. Padme's intuiting that Dooku wants to kill her (thinking that's WAY outside of the box to say the least) when no part of the AOTC plot ends up turning on the point, anyway. R2's rockets. Anakin's dream of ending slavery. Qui-Gon's mention at the end of Revenge.

There are a lot of these--thanks mostly, one suspects, to the "paint a little, stand back, paint a little more, stand back again" technique that Lucas admitted to employing this go round.

Bravo, R12. Bravo.

 

Here's my take on it:

There may or may not be tons of plot holes in the saga caused by the PT. Either way, who gives a #$^#? You either enjoy the films and suspend your disbelief, or you don't. Just listing all the supposed plot holes is one of the most exiguous ways to attack the PT, IMO.

 

DarthDubya05, no, we must fight to the death!!!

Sinister, that's one interpretation, but as I watch ANH/ESB, that's not what I see. I see that he was given a butt-load of cash with no promise of more, but stuck out with the rebels anyway. As Leia said "I knew there was more to you than money". He was taking a big risk by sticking with the rebels. Eventually, the risk became too great for him. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a member. He ordered people around, was considered a natural leader - why shouldn't I think he was a member? ROTJ just says they made him general, it never said he joined for the first time.

Homer, I enjoy TPM/ROTS just fine, but the things in those movie that don't add up to the OT irritate me and do take away from the enjoyment some, not a lot, but enough to be made note of. I wouldn't critize them if I didn't feel bothered by them.

 

Han received an acting rank of captain in the Alliance, and accompanied the Rebels on numerous missions and adventures.--starwars.com--Han Solo databank

 

Acting rank, just as good. I have no desire to split hairs on the type of rank. Other than "Captain Solo" the movie does not give specifics.