There is a god

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by EnforcerSG, Mar 18, 2004.

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  1. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    But for taking that choice, my soul is damned eternally. It's a threat to /make me/ love god, or at least it seems very much like one.
    I don't see Hell as a place of fire and brimstone. I see Hell as separation from God, and Heaven as nearness to God. therefore, choosing not to love God leads to Hell by nature, just as choosing to love Him must lead to Heaven. It's not a punishment, but a logical result.

    But if he /knew/ they would eat from that one tree, why give it to them in the first place?
    Because everything had to happen if it did. I love life, and I love freedom, and I love mortality, and I would be very sorry to learn that God meant things to go another way in Eden. I'm not a Bible literalist, so I'm speaking in figurative terms as much as literal ones, but I believe that the choice at Eden was a purposeful part of the creation of man, and I for one am not sorry things went as they did.

    -Paul
  2. scum&villainy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 4
    The first point raised, that of morality can be addressed here, with some evidence that morality is genetic - a grossly simplified term for the scientific field known as Evolutionary Psychology.

    A quote:
    "Cosmides & Tooby used the Wason selection task, an experimental protocol developed to study conditional reasoning, in order to test for the presence of social contract algorithms and their predicted properties. The Wason selection task asks subjects to look for violations of a conditional rule (If P then Q), such as ?If a person eats hot chili peppers, then that person will drink cold beer?.

    A conditional rule is violated whenever P happens but Q does not happen (in this case, whenever someone ate hot chili peppers but did not drink cold beer). In the Wason task, the subject is given incomplete information about four people [in this case, one ate hot chili peppers (P), one ate broccoli (not-P), one drank cold beer (Q), one drank hot tea (not-Q)]. To respond correctly, the subject would need to check the person who ate hot peppers and the person who drank hot tea (i.e., P & not-Q). Yet studies in many nations have shown that reasoning performance on descriptive rules like this is low: only 5-30% of people give the logically correct answer, even when the rule involves familiar terms drawn from everyday life. <For sample Wason tasks, and how the mind "sees" them, click here>

    To show that people who ordinarily cannot detect violations of conditional rules can do so easily when the rule expresses a social contract and a violation represents cheating would be (initial) evidence that the mind has reasoning procedures specialized for detecting cheaters. If this succeeds, then one looks for futher evidence of special design

    That is just the pattern found: People who ordinarily cannot detect violations of if-then rules can do so easily and accurately when that violation represents cheating in a situation of social exchange. Given a rule of the general form, ?If you take benefit B, then you must satisfy requirement R? (e.g., ?If you borrow my car, then fill up the tank with gas?), people will check the person who accepted the benefit (borrowed the car) and the person who did not satisfy the requirement (did not fill the tank) ? the individuals that represent potential cheaters. The adaptively correct answer is immediately obvious to almost all subjects, who commonly experience a pop-out effect. No formal training is needed. Whenever the content of a problem asks one to look for cheaters in a social exchange, subjects experience the problem as simple to solve, and their performance jumps dramatically. In general, 65-80% of subjects get it right, the highest performance found for a task of this kind."
    Essentially this research indicates that we may be predisposed to pick up on cheats; those who would make our social relationships and structures vulnerable. In other words, because 'morality' was advantageous to us at an earlier stage in our evolution, we - through natural selection - have aquired it.
  3. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    darth_paul.

    We were not meant to live in the conditions we are living in today!

    Just look around man! If you can honestly say we are supposed to suffer and live in pain like we do everyday all around the world, then you are fit to live in this system and will go down when it all ends!

    Gods purpose for man was to enjoy life !

    It is contrary to Gods love to purposely put us though this kind of life!

    God didn't do it to us, our original parents did!

    Blame them and ultimatly Satan not God!
  4. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Somebody needs to explain to me why God created us and not a race of super-aliens who like to play with our minds.

  5. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    God's primary reason for creating is to share life!

    To share the experience of living!

    But as far as why he created us as mortal is really not known, but I suspect that some of the joys we are able to experience are unique to fleshly creatures.

    Before he created us he created these angelic creatures who are immortal.

    So maybe he wanted to try something completely uniqueand different. :D

    Of couse its just speculation!
  6. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Maybe the question should be phrased:

    Explain why we chould believe that God created us, and that we were not created by a race of super-aliens that like to play with our minds.
  7. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    I suppose that works a little better, womberty.

  8. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Well then that leads to the question of who created the aliens?
  9. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    They are super "Q" type aliens from Star Trek. They are omnipotent. They created themselves by using time-travel.

  10. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    created themselves how, from what, in what time-line, in what universe?
  11. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I'm with JediFlyer. I can just imagine Q laughing his ass off at us now. ;)
  12. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    created themselves how, from what, in what time-line, in what universe?

    I would ask the same question of your god.

  13. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Yeah, but god is timeless, he exists outside of our universe. Nothing created god, he just became aware. :eek: Luckily I don't buy that kind of BS. [face_mischief]
  14. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    God always existsed is a reality that is impossible for us to comprehend because we are finite. We had a beginning. Can't say more than that because of that limitation!
  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    That's nice. I'd argue that point, but I don't feel like getting into and insistence argument.

    Proving your god exists. ;)
  16. MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    The irony is most of those points don't even disprove God exists, they just ask why one god is better than any other. It's more of an argument for agnosticism or theism than for atheism. The fact that the guy used outdated, generic questions (why would God create the bad things in nature? why would his creations suffer?) doesn't help matters, nor does the fact that he concluded it with very faulty mathematical logic (does anyone really believe that shuffling cards is more unlikely than life forming on this planet?). Oh, and to his point about what most people believe not determining objective reality- what about those with religions that believe in the concept of consensus reality?
  17. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Given that this guy's a programmer of sorts (I believe) I'm taking his mathematic equation at face value. ;)
  18. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    thinking and causing are to different things!

    Just look at string theory. Mathematically it is the closest thing to a grand unifiction theory of all the forces in nature than anything else. Can we prove it, or reproduce it in a lab?

    No.

    Do an experiment.

    Take your watch apart into all the various components. Put them in a box. Statistically you should be able to shake it and all the pieces will once again form your watch in perfect working order.

    Let me know when it happens!



  19. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    The irony is most of those points don't even disprove God exists

    The point was not to disprove the existence of God, but to demonstrate that reasons given to support the existence of God are illogical and unconvincing.

    As he says at the beginning of the page - no one has to disprove the existence of God; rather, it is up to you to prove his existence if you want to state it as fact.

    If I want to say, "The sun is driven by a big green bunny in the sky", I'd have to back it up with something more than "lots of other people believe the same thing."


    the guy used outdated, generic questions

    But he's applying them to a religion many consider "outdated", so it seems appropriate. ;)

    If God and religion haven't changed, why should the questions the nonbelievers ask have to change?
  20. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    Fireman

    You can't teach morality to wild animals, and they can't learn it on their own.

    We learn by doing. Want to know why you shouldn't touch a hot stove? Touch it, learn your lesson, and warn everyone else; the knowledge spreads. Yes, Morality is passed down from our parents. It is also shaped by the world around us in general, and by our experiences. It is possible to think that "A" is wrong at one point in your life, but later on, you may change, and realise that "A" was quite alright all along.

    Since there was no time, there was no "before". Do I understand that? Not really.

    Ok, work with me here... You can't understand how the universe could exist without God, and that's a problem for you... BUT... You can't understand how the universe could exist with God, and you're fine with that? Why does God get all the special treatment here? :p

    God, I think, just was. "Then", He created the
    universe.


    If there was a time before the universe existed, then there was time before the universe existed.

    Point A - Nothing exists except God

    Point B - God decides to create the universe

    Point C - God creates the universe

    Point B is the interesting one. Before this, God simply was, and there was nothing else. However, for some reason, he spontaneously decided to create the universe, leading to point B. Point A is now in the past, whilst point C is still in the future. It could be argued that time is an abstraction; simply humanity's way of marking events that have gone before. Can God remember what it was like before the universe existed? If he can, then he is clearly showing that time did exist before he created the universe. If he can't, then I'd imagine he's just as confused about origins as we are, and therefore not fit to call himself God. ;)

    Darth OB1

    If you do not believe in God then you have absolutly no accountability to anyone. None what so ever. You could slit two peoples throat and get away with it, and life goes on!(can you say OJ)

    Are you trying to suggest that you would go on a kill-crazy rampage if you didn't believe in God? It would appear that religion does have a valid purpose afterall.

    God did not plan for mankind to sin!

    God made a mistake? How is that possible? By its very nature, a perfect being needs nothing, and wants for nothing; it is complete already.
  21. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Are you trying to suggest that you would go on a kill-crazy rampage if you didn't believe in God? It would appear that religion does have a valid purpose afterall.

    NO! Like I said in a post after someone else asked that. It make makes it easier to do if you are not accountable for your actions.


    God made a mistake? How is that possible? By its very nature, a perfect being needs nothing, and wants for nothing; it is complete already.

    Who is saying God made a mistake? Certainly not me!

    The original sin has nothing to do with want or need. It has everything to do with desire and fulfilling that desire despite of the consequenses.


  22. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    NO! Like I said in a post after someone else asked that. It make makes it easier to do.


    It would? Hmm...I guess I'm secretly a murderer then because I don't have religion. ;) Since it's soooo easy without religion. Have you seen prison population statistics?

    Here you read that and then you tell me with a straight face that Atheism makes it easier to kill people or commit any other crime for that matter.

    To use the quote from the page.

    "Considering that nonbelievers make up approximately 10% of the population of the USA, you'd expect the evil fiends to be better represented in the prison population. No doubt they use their diabolical atheistic powers to influence judges and juries, or escape capture?"
  23. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    Who is saying God made a mistake? Certainly not me!

    But you said:

    God did not plan for mankind to sin!

    Therefore, we went against God's plan (a perfect being would make a perfect plan; it couldn't be any other way). If the fault lies in us, then it is still God's fault, since God gave us the capacity to do so. If God's perfect plan isn't fulfilled to the letter, then God isn't perfect.

    A perfect being can not be anything less; everything that God does would be perfect, even his very thoughts. Humanity is not perfect, therefore God could not even think about creating us.
  24. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Boy this got sidetracked, but it was inevitable :)

    Look, in today?s world, we blame the media for us choosing to watch it and getting messed up by it. We blame the gun makers for people shooting each other. We blame the fast food industry for people getting fat. Why not blame God for creating the tree? :p

    On to some points.

    epic

    You said that it is a simpler explanation to say things are natural than made by a god, but I am not arguing about the creation of the universe. I am arguing about human nature, and asking which is a simpler explanation, some god decided to make us moral, or we developed it?

    Also, why do we believe that there is objective modality?

    it doesn't come from nothing, no, it comes from something slightly less complex, and so on

    Yet everything we see in nature is either A things become less complex, or B everything else becomes more complex due to life. Actually that?s not true, crystals and chemical bonds for one. Hmm.

    Dani1138

    You keep saying good is supporting something, survival, but I can keep asking like a little annoying kid why is whatever you say good.

    Although I probably could with god as a reason to.

    The Fireman

    You said that all morals come from God, but I must disagree. We are indeed taught morals by our parents, but we can also think on our own and disagree with our parents, and even be right at times! Give humans more credit than that.

    Also, we may become moral because we want something. Not so much trained as just figuring it out. We want to get food, so it is good to be nice to our neighbors so we can borrow some sugar or something.


    As for the origins of god, the question stands where did god come from? Or more to the point, why do you make a special exception for god? Show proof for 'God being outside the universe' and what not, and why 'everything (only) in the universe has a beginning' and not things outside too? Simply because it must be? Simply because that is what your religion says? Those are not good reasons. Anything can in theory be justified by those two things.
  25. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    My whole point is accountability!

    If you don't believe in God you are really not accountable to anyone/anything but yourself. Simple as that end of story.

    Some say wrong, your accountable to society.

    Ok what about lying?
    Stealing?
    Cheating?

    Things that people get away with all the time where is the accountability there when society doesn't catch you? THERE IS NONE, ONLY TO YOURSELF!!

    As far as society is concerned you appear to be a good person, so you have fooled society at their own game good for you you just thwarted your accountability to them!

    People justify why they do these things all the time. Does that make them right? Of course not.

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