There is a god

EnforcerSG wrote:
"I feel that the pain and unhappiness, although maybe desired for God?s wants, take away from happiness."

Unhappy from a certain point of view. There will be a time when you look back on days of joy and unhappiness and relish them. The seemingly good, bad, happy or unhappy events are part of you and your existence.

The_Fireman wrote:
"1. He has a purpose. Down here, in this universe, we have to experiance pain, physically and emotionally, we have to experiance loss, the need for reconciliation with God, and eventually death. For those who DO become reconciled, when we live in God's kingdom in the finality of it all, we will be able to remember all that was negative, and we'll look and see what we have become."

I would agree with this except for the implication of need. The pain, the loss, the reconciliation with G-D are all wanted...not needed.

EnforcerSG wrote:
"Likewise I can believe that there is a God just like I believe there is a computer in front of me, and that belief does not change the fact one way or another. So why is faith and belief so important when in theory we can have facts?"

Ah, I beg to differ here. Depending on what you believe, the computer in front of you exists this way or that. Any facts you refer to are believed to have existed or happened. So, in truth, not facts, but memories, perceptions....faith. As I've said before, a man could walk on water, do numerous acts to prove he is G-D but for an individual to believe it takes faith on that individuals part. If G-D were to appear right beside you, you would probably be escorted to a specialist or you'd keep it to yourself. Or you'd have faith that you were hallucinating. As I said...it's a failsafe in the system

"I feel God is responsible for there being evil in the universe. Evil is like a gun that God gave to us, we may pull the trigger, but it is still something that God made (at least how I see it). Am I wrong? "

G-D is responsible for anything and everything. I hope I'm not misconstruing that. That doesn't mean evil exists. Perception of evil, the imagination of evil, yes. But there's no evil. There is a high level of freedom though.

"they will say on and on that morality can only be morality if there is a moral God."

Yeah, wordy and a loop-like saying. I'd guess it's taken the wrong way, possible right till the end for some. If I were playin the $100,000 pyramid and the clues were "Morality, jutsified, love, hate..." I'd give an answer of "Words which take an eternity to define". They're nice to discuss but each is so dependant on knowing thyself that as you learn more about yourself each definition becomes more defined. Talk about loop-like sayings.

"And finally, can people tell me if religions, Christianity especially, encourage people to not have faith in themselves or others? We are fallen, imperfect, sinners, etc. We can't do anything without God's help."

Again, words are dependant on how they're read. At some points in ones life, some passages in the Bible, or LotR for that matter, will hold different meaning. As I said, as you learn more about yourself words gain or alter definition.

"Lets say that if I walk down the road tomorrow, a meter is going to fall out of the sky and hit and kill me completely out of the blue. If I know that is going to happen then obviously I will not walk down the road at that point. But I don't know if it is going to happen, so I cannot make the choice I truly want to make. Do I really have free will?"

Firstly, that meter would be falling out of the sky, not out of the blue. It was meant to drop out of the sky. What if I were to tell you that your subconscious may know the exact place and moment the meter is going to fall. That the choice would have already been made previous. So on one hand it seems like no freechoice but really there was a higher degreee of choice than known. This becomes a loop as well. That loop is something G-D probably wrestles with too. What came first, freewill or destiny o

 

Grand Designer

Unhappy from a certain point of view. There will be a time when you look back on days of joy and unhappiness and relish them. The seemingly good, bad, happy or unhappy events are part of you and your existence.

They may be a part of our existence, but that does not mean I will enjoy them nor enjoy remembering and reliving them.

Ah, I beg to differ here. Depending on what you believe, the computer in front of you exists this way or that.

Please give a specific example with facts. Obviously my opinions depend on how I am (such as I think my computer is a good one) but my belief is not going to change the fact that the computer runs XP SP1, has an 18.1" monitor, a 1.3ghz Athalon...etc. How will my belief or faith change those things?

Any facts you refer to are believed to have existed or happened. So, in truth, not facts, but memories, perceptions....faith.

So what is the difference between 'knowing' and 'having faith?'

As I've said before, a man could walk on water, do numerous acts to prove he is G-D but for an individual to believe it takes faith on that individuals part.

IMHO, the only reason it requires faith is that the universe does not allow for a man to walk on water (or most other miracles), and we have never observed it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And I am getting very tired of the whole "if you don't accept the evidences of god, then tough." The whole point of this thread is for the evidences to be presented and explained. To EVERYONE, stop hiding behind "you must accept them" and actually talk about them!!!

If G-D were to appear right beside you, you would probably be escorted to a specialist or you'd keep it to yourself.

It depends. If a meter falls on my head, and while unconscious I 'see' God and he tells me to lick my butt like a cat, them maybe I would seriously doubt it (and never watch Shreck 2 again). If after asking for God to show Himself, we actually have an intelligent conversation and He answers my questions clearly and I understand enough, them I would probably take it seriously. And again, read my last paragraph.

G-D is responsible for anything and everything. I hope I'm not misconstruing that. That doesn't mean evil exists. Perception of evil, the imagination of evil, yes. But there's no evil. There is a high level of freedom though.

We have probably been though this, but to you, what is evil? As a word, as a concept, as a lifestyle (the first parts were serious).

Your reply to my morality question: Well, to me morality is just one of many reasons we may choose to do (or not do) something. And what those reasons are varies from person to person, but for me it comes down to as little harm as possible. Keep in mind that this is very arbitrary definition, but so is every word in every language.

Again, words are dependant on how they're read. At some points in ones life, some passages in the Bible, or LotR for that matter, will hold different meaning. As I said, as you learn more about yourself words gain or alter definition.

It was a yes or no question.

Specifically Christianity I feel says that, and I feel that an attitude like that will hold back the human race given enough time.

Firstly, that meter would be falling out of the sky, not out of the blue. It was meant to drop out of the sky. What if I were to tell you that your subconscious may know the exact place and moment the meter is going to fall.

I would say either that no, our subconscious would not know about this meter and I would ask you to show evidence or proof that our subconscious would know something along those lines... or I would say you need to end a question with a ?.

That the choice would have already been made previous. So on one hand it seems like no freechoice but really there was a higher degreee of choice than known.

Was it my choice? And it may help me to know what you mean when you say 'choice.'

Besides, even if we only subconsciously 'know,'(a

 

Psychotic_Sith: Not to mention the fact there's nothing in the Bible to suggest God ever felt bad for the atrocities and crimes he committed, and everything to suggest he actually had no problems slaughtering thousands at a time

People die every day. We are mortal. The time and circumstances of our deaths are in God's hands. From that perspective, a rain of fire from the sky, the bubonic plague, and just plain passing away are all the same thing.

As Bubba said, your problem with God seems to boil down to the fact that you can't accept for some reason that a loving God would make us mortal.

Also, regarding your laundry list of Christian offenses, do you hold all Muslims guilty for the events of 9/11? I see no reason I should have to answer for events that happened hundreds of years before I was born, perpetrated by people who used the name of God as an excuse without actually having a living and loving relationship with Him.

Sitting in my garage doesn't make me a car, and calling myself a Christian doesn't make it so. The Bible says (or is popularly paraphrased as saying) "They will know that you are Christians by your love."

Therefore, if any person is not living with the goal of loving everyone unconditionally (BTW, this doesn't mean liking everyone), they are not living with Christ in their hearts and are not Christians no matter what they say. They are violating the third commandment, taking the Lord's name in vain (i.e. where it has no business being used).

M. Scott

 

Back in the days of old, men were looked upon as fools who did not hold onto a religious belief in God. Now in these days, men are looked upon as fools who hold onto a religious belief in God.

The roles are switching, and amusingly secularists do not see this. Secularism it seems, is becoming the new arrogant "norm".

 

Babies who die are frankly the lucky ones. They don't have to go through the crap we do in this world, they get to re-enter the spirit world immediately

This caught my eye.

What this means, is the Columbine massacre people were fully just in their behaviour;

They went up to people, put a gun to their forehead, asked "Do you believe in lord God Jesus as your Saviour"? If they answered "Yes" they pulled the trigger, and went to the next one.

So, by your logic, and by your belief, this ia a really clever thing to do?!?! Should we start right now?!!??!! (I'll surely pass on that!)

What further baffles me, is this; If your belief is so strong and you know the eternal reward, why y'all don't jump off a cliff or something? You'll be saved, won't you?


/Z

 

Not all of them ... at least, I don't think so. Don't some people believe that suicide's a mortal sin, the sort that gets a person excluded from Heaven?

 

Force of Nature: I was always under the impression--Christians always tried to drill to this point home--that once you made the decision to follow Christ, it was irrevocable? At least that's what I've always been taught.

What good is a decision like that if there are stipulations that limit whether or not you can still be admitted into Heaven once you reach the point of death?

Your defense of MasterZap's stellar point has caused you to contradict the entire foundation of born-again Christians view of unconditional love, or the finality of your decision to accept Christ into your heart.

And once again, MasterZap brings up a excellent point. With the prior statement, I would be in the right to go out on the streets this very second, and blow a hole in the head of someone deep in depression because of the world we live in.

<[-]> Saber

 

Back in the days when I was at school, I'm fairly sure we were taught that suicide was a mortal sin, presumably because a person who killed himself would probably have no opportunity to repent. However, that was a Catholic school and (a) I may have misunderstood/misremembered, (b) it may not apply to other Christian denominations and/or (c) the party line may have changed. I know it used to be very common for inquests to return a verdict of 'suicide whilst the balance of the mind was disturbed', meaning that the person mayn't have sinned deliberately and might be forgiven.



Incidentally, despite the impression given by the current fashion for 'suicide bombing', I've an idea that Islam also takes a very dim view of suicides.

 

There is a serious difference between an infant dying of natural causes and you killing someone on the belief that you're doing that person a favor.

The difference is this: being our Creator, God has every right to determine the length of time each of us spends in this world. Being omniscient, God actually knows whether a person's mission on this earth is fulfilled, and whether it is a legitimate act of mercy to bring that person's earthly life to a close.

The human act of euthanasia is the height of arrogance; it is an act of humans pretending to be God. We have no claim on the lives of others, thus it's not our say when an innocent life is to be ended. We aren't omniscient, so it's arrogant of us to act as if we know for certain whether someone's life is going to be miserable.

Think of the lepers and blind men and lame men who were healed by Christ. Had their "friends" ended their lives prematurely, they would have robbed them of the opportunity to meet God Incarnate on this earth.


Truly, my life after this one will be Paradise, an eternity with the Heavenly Father who loves me much more than I deserve and much more than I can fathom. Scripture hints at a second physical body and at reunions with the dearly departed. Beyond walking with the Father -- a blessing that would be more than enough on its own -- I'll be reunited with deceased family members who have also accepted God's grace, and I'll have an opportunity to meet and thank those Apostles, saints, and Christian writers who have had such an impact on my life.

My eternal life in Paradise won't be any shorter if I live another 70 years, so what's the rush?

More to the point, when God wants me home, He'll take me home. Until then, I must assume I'm here for a reason. He still has work for me to do.

One thing that many contemporary churches miss is this: God wants to adopt us as His children, and we are to be His children in every way, not just enjoying His good gifts, but joining Him in His good works.

Hence, the Great Commission. Hence, the parable about the vast harvest and the sparse number of workers.

My local church rightly emphasizes Jesus' words as recorded in John 5:17.

"My Father is working still, and I am working."

If I am truly my adoptive Father's child, I too must get to work. I do Him no honor by shirking my responsibilities, leaving the field, and going to the mansion before He's bidden me to come home.

In this case, as in all others, my Father knows best.

 

The human act of euthanasia is the height of arrogance; it is an act of humans pretending to be God. We have no claim on the lives of others, thus it's not our say when an innocent life is to be ended. We aren't omniscient, so it's arrogant of us to act as if we know for certain whether someone's life is going to be miserable.

But wait, you just step into a gaping contradiction here.

Assuming omniscence, God knows that person X will die on may 3rd. Being omnipotent, and the creator of the world, it's really God who set the date may 3rd in the first place, right?

So, assume person Q dies an may 3rd... by a bullet to the head. This means it was Gods plan, all along, that this bullet should be there (or, he is not omnipotent/omniscent).

Hence, person Z shooting person Q isn't "arrogant", he is just performing a job that God at the dawn of time pre-built into the universe.

It happened. Since God is never wrong (omnipotent) it was always supposed to happen. So the murderer did nothing wrong, just performed an act of God, by proxy.

It was always supposed to happen (omniscence). God knew the minute the first corpuscle of the universe was willed into existance this would happen. So it was ultimately Gods will.

The murderer is faultless, just doi'n what murderers do best.


Or are you trying to say that God "wants" some deaths and not others? That would be a problem in the omni-department again.

Whats the big differnce between dying of old age, cancer, or a bullet really? 'tis death, either way.

Explain.

/Z

 

ah, the ol' theistic free will/determinism debate (as opposed to the non-theistic one, which is another matter). 'tis a classic. i've always liked: if god knows everything, then he already knows, right NOW, whether i end up in heaven or hell. so what's the point? where's this muchly needed free will that christians base the presense of sin with? if god knows NOW that i'm gonna end up in hell, then how can i ever NOT end up in hell? to do so would to prove god wrong, and we know that can't happen...

i've heard many alternate defences, but they all fall short.

 

Assuming omniscence, God knows that person X will die on may 3rd. Being omnipotent, and the creator of the world, it's really God who set the date may 3rd in the first place, right?

Wrong. Just because God is all-powerful and can do everything, it does not logically follow that He does do everything.

Foreknowledge does not equal causation. Omnipotence does not equal causation either. All you have is the ability to cause such an even to occur. You have to establish that God does cause it to occur (as opposed to merely letting it happen).

Kimball Kinnison

 

epic(and to some extent Zap): I said this in the atheism thread but since the topic of discussion has come up here again:

Just because I know the end of a book does not mean I wrote it. Similarly, as Kimball said, just because God CAN make happen anything He wants to happen doesn't mean He does.

Yes, God knows what will happen to you in the end. But it is still a result of your choices. Knowing the inevitable conclusion of your life's journey AS YOU MADE IT does not equate to forcing it to happen.

If God "knows someone is going to Hell" that is because in God's perspective it has, essentially, already happened. He sees all time in one eternal moment. God cannot be "proven wrong" because the outcome has already occurred. However, there is no reason to ask "what's the point," as you can always change your mind. Yes, God will know that too, and yes, He will always have known you would do that. But He didn't MAKE you do it. He COULD have, but He doesn't, and some people don't. That's free will.

M. Scott

 

As usual, I think I'm confused ...

Suppose that someone is going to shoot me dead on Thursday; if God's omniscient, he must know that, mustn't he? I realise that doesn't mean he has to cause it to happen, but doesn't it mean that whoever's going to shoot me can't change his mind? Surely if he did, it could only mean that it was never going to happen anyway - it was something he might have done but never could (at least not on Thursday!)

 

Very well put DorkmanScott.

God is outside of time itself, therefore he sees everything, from start to finish.

 

God knows when we change our minds, but he also knows the final outcome of our decisions.

Get a piece of paper, start from one end of the paper and draw a zig-zagged (up&down) line to the other, making the ending point end vertically higher or lower than the starting point. Look at the sharp edges of the zig-zagged line, imagine those are times in someone's life when they've changed their minds/lifestyle/etc. The ending point determining where that person ends up in the afterlife. Does this mean that this was unexpected to God? Nope, because God knows everything.

 

Suppose that someone is going to shoot me dead on Thursday; if God's omniscient, he must know that, mustn't he?

Yes.

I realise that doesn't mean he has to cause it to happen, but doesn't it mean that whoever's going to shoot me can't change his mind?

No. What it means is that the person who is going to shoot you WON'T change his mind. He has the freedom to do so until the moment he pulls the trigger, but he won't, and so he shoots you, and God knows that outcome.

If he were to change his mind, from the beginning God would have known that he was never going to shoot you. But He knows because it happens that way; it doesn't happen that way because He knows.

M. Scott

 

Dorkman: If God "knows someone is going to Hell" that is because in God's perspective it has, essentially, already happened. He sees all time in one eternal moment. God cannot be "proven wrong" because the outcome has already occurred.

okay, so, right now, god knows whether i end up in heaven or hell. so, let's say, hell. right now, god knows that i end up in hell, because he knows everything, and, as you say, to him it may aswell have already happened.

However, there is no reason to ask "what's the point," as you can always change your mind. Yes, God will know that too, and yes, He will always have known you would do that.

no, i can't change my mind. or i can, now, at this instant, but in the end, because god knows i end up in hell, i must end up in hell, be it through a series of "choices" or whatever. that cannot be changed. he will always have known that i WOULDN'T change my mind, that i would never have chosen to go to heaven.

if god knows something NOW, if he knows that the lakers are going to win the NBA Finals, that fact CANNOT be changed via free will. the lakers can NEVER not win the finals this year. i can NEVER not end up in hell.

 

if god knows something NOW, if he knows that the lakers are going to win the NBA Finals, that fact CANNOT be changed via free will. the lakers can NEVER not win the finals this year. i can NEVER not end up in hell.

This is a matter of semantics. If God knows something, it is not because it cannot be changed. It is because it WILL not be changed.

Additionally, we cannot know what God knows. We cannot assume, for example, that the Lakers will win because we do not know. So they have to play their best. Likewise, yes, God knows if heaven or hell will be the final abode of your soul.

God knows the inevitable conclusions of your choices. They are, indeed, inevitable. But they come from your choices, not God's.

M. Scott

 

This is a matter of semantics. If God knows something, it is not because it cannot be changed. It is because it WILL not be changed.

now that is semantics.

however what i said is not. i mean, it's my eternity we're talking about. my point is that if god already knows that i end up in hell for all eternity, even before i'm even toilet trained, even before i'm BORN, then... uhh... well, what kind of god is that who would ALLOW me to be born in the first place, knowing (through the "choices" i would make) the ultimate pain and suffering that would come for me?

great god you have there.

Additionally, we cannot know what God knows. We cannot assume, for example, that the Lakers will win because we do not know.

oh i know. i wish i did know, i would be putting down all the money i have. but if god knows, then the pistons, wolves and pacers NEVER had the chance to win, despite all their best efforts and intentions.

Likewise, yes, God knows if heaven or hell will be the final abode of your soul.

yet, if we stick with one or the other and say "hell", he still "allows" me to be born. thanks a million, god!

God knows the inevitable conclusions of your choices. They are, indeed, inevitable. But they come from your choices, not God's.

i've admitted that. however they are my "choices", unbeknownst to me, yes, but ones that god already knows i will make. it's like saying that you have the choice to either reply to this post or not, but god already knows, right now, before i even type this sentence, that you will reply. so, while it may appear to you that you have the "choice" to either reply or not reply, if god already knows you're GOING to reply, how can you ever NOT reply? if you don't reply you prove god wrong. that can't happen, so you MUST reply. so what's happened to your "free will"? out the window.

one last thing: i never CHOSE to be born. i never CHOSE to be set upon this inevitable lifespan which can never NOT result in a trip to an eternity in hell.

so, like, sucks to be me, eh? and sucks to be all those people in hell right now. if god knew they would end up there before he even created them, their choices could NEVER have resulted in them ending up in heaven. so much for this "god intended everyone to end up in heaven" speel, then. sure, he may have intended it, but he knew it was a pipedream right from the get-go. yet his ego still made him create humanity. he'd rather sacrifice a large percentage of humans to hell for the praise and love of a few believers. ego-loving, indeed.

has the fallacy sunk in yet?

 

Just because I know the end of a book does not mean I wrote it. Similarly, as Kimball said, just because God CAN make happen anything He wants to happen doesn't mean He does

Glad you put this here because I was almost going to comment on it here anyway;

But God *did* write the book.

He created the universe; being omniscent, at the "moment" of creation, he alreaedy knew the outcome of it. Since everything is a consequence of that creation, everything is initially caused by it, and hence, with omniscence, meaning that God did it intentionally so (making it any other way would not be omniscent).

Being "outside time" also means that God did not just create the "start" of the univese, but actually sculpted the whole chain of events as a whole (to God, a seed that grows and becomes a tree then falls and dies is one single 4-dimensional object along the "time" axis, which to God is just another dimension), and hence totally deterinistically decided everyting from the getgo. That we "perceive" it as "time" is a mere illusion from our point of view.

Yes, God knows what will happen to you in the end. But it is still a result of your choices. Knowing the inevitable conclusion of your life's journey AS YOU MADE IT does not equate to forcing it to happen

False; he created the universe and caused every cause that eventually causes me to do what I do, hence he is ultimately responsible for every action I do. Otherwise, he is not omniscent, or not ominipitent, or neither.

If God "knows someone is going to Hell" that is because in God's perspective it has, essentially, already happened. He sees all time in one eternal moment. God cannot be "proven wrong" because the outcome has already occurred.

Exactly, so if you are going to heaven when you die on may 3rd it doesn't matter if it was by a bullet or by old age, because it was determined and Gods will it should happen. Hence God wanted me to put a pullet to your head.

He COULD have, but He doesn't, and some people don't. That's free will.

He caused everything, and is therefore responsible to all actions performed after that, because by virtue of creating the universe in a certain way, caused the events to play out a certain way, and is ultimate causation of every decision YOU make. Antying else would not be omnipotent, nor omniscent.

Denying this is futile.

I.e. your model doesn't fly.

/Z

 

I'm going to give my view, but I will be careful to warn you that I am LDS (Mormon), and this is a view that is not shared by all Christians. I don't want this to become a debate over LDS beliefs. This is just to show that there are other perspectives on this matter.

We are all literally spirit children of God. We existed before we were born and lived with him as spirits (pure intelligences). However, we were unlike God in two ways. First, God has a physical body (that our physical bodies are created in the image of). Second, God has progressed a lot farther than we have spiritually (to the point that He is omniscient and omnipotent).

Because of these two problems, God presented a plan for us, where we could have to opportunity to come to Earth, gain a body, and gain experience as well. We gain this experience through making choices, both good and bad. In those cases where we make bad choices, He has provided a way that we can repent of those choices and make up for our mistakes (thanks to Christ as our Savior).

The purpose of this life is for us to gain experience, to learn and grow to be more like God. That is why we are commanded to be perfect, even as God is perfect. That is why, in one of our scriptures (not used by other Christians) it states "For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

God does not make us do things. He provides us with the opportunities to learn and to grow, as well as the tools to let him correct our mistakes. However, God will not force us to learn, nor will He force us to do anything that we choose not to do. As one of our hymns says:

Know this, that ev'ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be;
For this eternal truth is giv'n:
That God will force no man to heav'n.

God is our father and teacher, but He will not force us to follow.

Kimball Kinnison

 

epic: This is a matter of semantics. If God knows something, it is not because it cannot be changed. It is because it WILL not be changed.

now that is semantics.

Uh...yeah. That's why my first sentence was "This is a matter of semantics." Your point?

however they are my "choices", unbeknownst to me, yes, but ones that god already knows i will make. it's like saying that you have the choice to either reply to this post or not, but god already knows, right now, before i even type this sentence, that you will reply. so, while it may appear to you that you have the "choice" to either reply or not reply, if god already knows you're GOING to reply, how can you ever NOT reply? if you don't reply you prove god wrong. that can't happen, so you MUST reply. so what's happened to your "free will"? out the window.

This is circular. Let's use another example.

On August 6, 1945, the United States under Harry S Truman dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. We know this because it happened. But did Truman make that decision because he "had to"? No. He made that decision of his own free will. The fact that we know it does not mean that we in any way caused it.

Zap: Glad you put this here because I was almost going to comment on it here anyway;

But God *did* write the book.

No. The principle of free will means that, for all intents and purposes, we write the book. Each of us writes the "book" of his own life. God supplies the paper and pen.

He created the universe; being omniscent, at the "moment" of creation, he alreaedy knew the outcome of it.

Yes.

Since everything is a consequence of that creation, everything is initially caused by it, and hence, with omniscence, meaning that God did it intentionally so (making it any other way would not be omniscent).

No. Does not follow.

From dictionary.com:

Omniscient: Having total knowledge; knowing everything

Where does it say that knowing = causing? He set events in motion, He knows how they will turn out as a result of human decisions, but that does not mean He in any way orchestrated those decisions, and that is not a violation of the principle of omniscience.

False; he created the universe and caused every cause that eventually causes me to do what I do, hence he is ultimately responsible for every action I do. Otherwise, he is not omniscent, or not ominipitent, or neither.

False. He is regarded as the First Cause but not the constant cause. And whatever happened to your championed logical discernment? Even if He was specifically behind everything that happened in your life, it is still your choice and determination as to how to handle them. He does not force you into anything.

Exactly, so if you are going to heaven when you die on may 3rd it doesn't matter if it was by a bullet or by old age, because it was determined and Gods will it should happen. Hence God wanted me to put a pullet to your head.

You're basing the entire argument of this post around the fallacy "God knows = God chose" which has been addressed and I'm addressing again. Again, say I've read a book before. I know that a character I really like is going to be killed on page 274. Does that mean it's my will that he be killed on page 274? No. But it happens, so I know about it.

He caused everything, and is therefore responsible to all actions performed after that, because by virtue of creating the universe in a certain way, caused the events to play out a certain way, and is ultimate causation of every decision YOU make. Antying else would not be omnipotent, nor omniscent.

See my above arguments, which have already addressed this.

Omnipotence, HAVING the power to do anything, does not = using it. That is tyranny.

Denying this is futile.

Again with the kindergarten arguments. Holding your hands over your ears and going "LALALALALALALA!!!!" doesn't make you right.

I.e. your model doesn't fly.

You have yet to prove this satisfactorily, no matter how hig

 

He set events in motion, He knows how they will turn out as a result of human decisions, but that does not mean He in any way orchestrated those decisions, and that is not a violation of the principle of omniscience.

Yes it does. Since each event is a consequence of the preceeding event, we perceive free will, but to God we do not have free will (just as we perceive time but to God there is none.

So free will is just a perceptive joke played upon us by God. This follows logically from Omniscence.

Since God caused the first cause, and the manner in which this cause was caused dictates all following causes (at least with omniscence present) then in absolute terms, there is no free will, only the illuson of free will. There is no choice, only the illusion of choice.

I still see it as you are painting yourself more and more into a corner with your "arguments".

But tell you what, this isn't the point!

The point is THIS; If God knows person X is going to die on may 3rd, and this is the day God always intended him to die (how could it otherwise), and this is the day that he is supposed to be lead, by God, by the hand into the kingdom of heaven, then, does it really matter, now, the manner he died?

If God had decided the death was 3rd of May, this is Gods decision. It's the day for the graceful welcome and all that.

So this death, on may 3rd, is THE death.

Surely, it doesn't matter if this person happens to cross the path of a bullet, or hit by a car, or dies from pneumonia? Does it?

Either death, if decided by God, is the Right One(tm)?

But if I pull the trigger, this must, by definition, be part of Gods Grand Plan, because surely, I, as a mere human, am incapable of going AGAINST Gods Grand Plan(tm)? Am I not?

If I am, God surely is not omnipotent!

If I am not, then it is part of Gods Grand Plan that I pull the trigger.

So lets go out and tell people to believe in Jesus and blow them away, because by definition (Christians definition, mind you, not mine) what you do is part of Gods Grand Mysterious Plan(RegTM) and who are YOU to question Gods Grand Plan? And who am I to question it? I just do the trigger-pulling?


/Z

 

So free will is just a perceptive joke played upon us by God. This follows logically from Omniscence.

No. It does not. At all. As I have explained, and you choose to ignore.

Since God caused the first cause, and the manner in which this cause was caused dictates all following causes (at least with omniscence present) then in absolute terms, there is no free will, only the illuson of free will. There is no choice, only the illusion of choice.

This argument just plain makes no sense. You're using omniscience to mean something it purely and simply does not mean.

I still see it as you are painting yourself more and more into a corner with your "arguments".

You've long since made it clear that you see what you want to see.

The point is THIS; If God knows person X is going to die on may 3rd, and this is the day God always intended him to die (how could it otherwise), and this is the day that he is supposed to be lead, by God, by the hand into the kingdom of heaven, then, does it really matter, now, the manner he died?

I suppose not, but that's not how it works. For the millionth time, foreknowledge DOES NOT EQUATE to predestination.

So lets go out and tell people to believe in Jesus and blow them away, because by definition (Christians definition, mind you, not mine) what you do is part of Gods Grand Mysterious Plan(RegTM) and who are YOU to question Gods Grand Plan?

If you did that, you would be acting of your own free will, not as a puppet of God (of which He has none). This is your choice. God has prepared the welcome for the heaven-bound that you will kill, because He knows that their death will be at that time and manner, but He did not pull the trigger. You did. You would be committing the sin of pride, presuming to know the mind of God. His will is for Him, not you, to decide.

M. Scott