There is a god

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by EnforcerSG, Mar 18, 2004.

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  1. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Well I sufggest you look up these tales.

    Its not a simple wiping away of a house, it is a global wide extermination of men that is common.

    The differences in the details is explained in previous posts.
  2. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    At best, you've got an incompetent God. But more importantly, you've just demonstrated that the Hebrews just thought their god had sent the flood, and explained the naturally occuring phenonomen in terms of divine intervention, something that all these other cultures did with their deities (unless they got the memo that this was from Yahweh...)

    "Incompetent"? How so? The Bible teaches that after the flood, mankind spread out from one location to many, after generations. Why on earth is it hard to see that as people moved farther apart from each other, and more and more time went by, that they would lose certain details and invent their own? Your bias is showing here, and God still does not look incompetent. Sorry.

    He did what He set out to do.

    This basically reaffirms our belief that this whole god shebang is nothing more than the result of imaginative primitives who used divine intervention as a placeholder. In this case to explain why the house they spent years working on has been washed away... they must have done something to displease the godly one (because God is infallible, it couldn't possibly be that he's bored or a malevolent being could it?)

    I've realized that EVERYTHING reaffirms your belief that God isn't a serious possibility. You people have shifted your perspective to a place of captivity, and you're looking through a bent glass. Ever think that maybe, JUST maybe, instead of a bunch of primitive people who never met each other inventing God to explain their situation, that they were devinely created to know OF God, and thus, their conclusions are natural? Or that it is evidence that we all descended from the same people, and thus basic ideas and beliefs were passed down from them to us from generation to generation? Of course you never considered it. You CAN'T consider such a thing.

    You can argue 'til you're blue in the face, but God is still there, and it IS logical to believe in Him.
  3. Shroom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2004
    star 2
    I'm scared of even dipping my toe in this thread!

    I will say a couple of things though. Firstly, arising from the Flood story, I find God's method of going about things a little surprising/upsetting.

    If I was a supreme being, with absolute control over my world, and I wanted to start again, I could raise a finger (metaphorically speaking of course) and mankind would disappear, leaving only those I wanted to survive. Everyone else could cease to have ever existed - they could turn into ants and scurry away, they could turn into blancmanges and slowly melt in the desert sun. From an infinitely loving perspective, and with an infinite number of opportunities available to me, I have to wonder why I would choose to slowly drown them over the course of 6 weeks or so. It just seems a bit, nasty really. Its all very well being told that God has His own scheme, and He is Love, and He is Good, but generally I tend to judge people by their actions, and that one has never appealed to me.

    My only other point is that there are a vast number of people on both sides of the argument, and only a few of them are still trying to use logic to try and "prove" His existence either way. Frankly, if logic could be used as proof, there would be many more believers, we are not just being difficult for the sake of it!

    I think that that majority of people who have tried this tack have realised that it tends to come out in a no-score draw. My own feeling is that the only evidence a person can use for God's existence is a personal feeling that he must exist. I might argue that you can be decieved by your feelings, but in the end I can never really contradict your own subjective experience of the world.

    But, and there always has to be a "but", my subjective experience of the world does not include God. Is he hiding, am I not looking hard enough, or is he just not there?

    Answers on a postcard please to the usual address....

  4. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    I've realized that EVERYTHING reaffirms your belief that God isn't a serious possibility. You people have shifted your perspective to a place of captivity, and you're looking through a bent glass. Ever think that maybe, JUST maybe, instead of a bunch of primitive people who never met each other inventing God to explain their situation, that they were devinely created to know OF God, and thus, their conclusions are natural? Or that it is evidence that we all descended from the same people, and thus basic ideas and beliefs were passed down from them to us from generation to generation? Of course you never considered it. You CAN'T consider such a thing.

    But it's not like every religion has had the same view of God, most worshipped a God that had attributes like man, some worshipped a god or gods that were humanoid or in the image of an animal. I think man has always looked for answers because that's how we've survived, by the ever lasting pursuit of knowledge. Since we're still at the beginning stages of our evolution I think if we last long enough there will be a time when humans become too smart for religion.

    As far as humans being devinely created to know of God, if God was truly a Christian God why would he put thoughts of other religions in their brain? There have been thousands and thousands of religions, so what would be the purpose?

    I do believe humans evolved from one place, probably Africa and then traveled all across the world over hundreds of thousands or millions of years. I also believe there was once a great flood, but the story of Noah is not only asinine, it's flat out impossible. No man, not even with all our technology would be able to round up two every animal. Then get them into a boat made of wood??? Yeah, it's fake and silly.
  5. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    Shroom - I belieive that in general God works by using mechanisms existent in the natural physical world. Thus I tend to accept the Big Bang or a similar theory as the process through which God gave rise to the universe, and evolution as the process through which He formed life. Likewise, it is (for me) much more sensible that God would have used the natural mechanisms He created to bring about the purification of humanity through a flood than that he simply vanished them all.

    Cyprusg - I won't get into a lot of detail here, but it's been discussed in other places that it was not necessary for Noah to bring two of every specific type of animal. Also, I'd imagine that he probably didn't in the end get every single variety. The ones he didn't ever see anywhere, no one knew about, so of course they wouldn't be counted as animals he would not bring.

    -Paul
  6. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

    15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

    16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him:

    Darth_Paul...that would be sensible. But that's certainly not how it was told in bible class. But whatever, like everything it's open to interpretation.
  7. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    If I was a supreme being, with absolute control over my world, and I wanted to start again, I could raise a finger (metaphorically speaking of course) and mankind would disappear, leaving only those I wanted to survive. Everyone else could cease to have ever existed - they could turn into ants and scurry away, they could turn into blancmanges and slowly melt in the desert sun. From an infinitely loving perspective, and with an infinite number of opportunities available to me, I have to wonder why I would choose to slowly drown them over the course of 6 weeks or so. It just seems a bit, nasty really. Its all very well being told that God has His own scheme, and He is Love, and He is Good, but generally I tend to judge people by their actions, and that one has never appealed to me.

    I understand where you're coming from, but God doesn't make mistakes. Simply "de-creating" mankind would not have accomplished anything except to start all over - something that was never in God's plan from the beginning. It would have been an admitting of defeat. God is not defeated. Instead, the wages of sin is death; mankind had become SO sinful at that point, that they rightfully deserved what they got. They were warned, they didn't listen (except for Noah), and they paid the price. Life goes on, the "innocent" children get to be with God and out of this sorrowful world, the evildoers get what they deserve, and God is still God. His plan continues unhindered. Also, I highly doubt people drowned slowly over that time. ;) The Deluge was a violent, powerful storm.

    My only other point is that there are a vast number of people on both sides of the argument, and only a few of them are still trying to use logic to try and "prove" His existence either way. Frankly, if logic could be used as proof, there would be many more believers, we are not just being difficult for the sake of it!

    I understand this, too. And for the record, I'm not attempting to use logic to prove that He exists; I'm only trying to show that it is not ILlogical to believe in Him, when you look at it from our perspective. Some people cannot see it from our perspective unless we point it out to them, and even then, they usually don't get the whole picture. And say what you will about me not seeing things from the other perspective, but I HAVE seen it, I've been there, and I have examined things from BOTH sides. For the longest time I switched back and forth, struggling to stay on the side I'm on now, but finding it hard to do so. And then I remembered. I was shown once again why I believed in the first place, my perspective was shifted back. And here I am.

    But, and there always has to be a "but", my subjective experience of the world does not include God. Is he hiding, am I not looking hard enough, or is he just not there?

    A justified question. I tend to believe it is a combination of the first two. You yourself said you aren't exactly fond of Yahweh's methods. Do you really WANT Him to exist? If so, you should have no trouble finding Him. If not, well, you can easily analyze Him out of existence in your own life. As for the first point, it's possible, based on certain interpretations of Scripture, that He has not revealed Himself to you yet. I don't understand many parts of Scripture, this being one of those, but it can be stated that God does the choosing of who comes to believe in Him. Not an idea I'm fond of, and I'm not completely sold on that being the proper interpretation, but it is a Scriptural possibility.
  8. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    "Darth_Paul...that would be sensible. But that's certainly not how it was told in bible class. But whatever, like everything it's open to interpretation."

    Thats not how you remember it being told, possibly. But the person who was describing the events may have read the story in a different way. As I said before, the stories and words change meaning as one gains experience. It is open to interpretation. That is something they should teach in bible class maybe? Maybe thats a part forgotten or misinterpreted. That's part of the reason the Force, as described in the Star Wars movies, is very appealing. The fact is the Force isn't overly described. It allows people to see it...from their own point of view. And how else could it be seen, really?

    "Since we're still at the beginning stages of our evolution I think if we last long enough there will be a time when humans become too smart for religion."

    Thats a bit backwards, as I see things. In time, humans will understand what believing is and what belief incorporates. But, if you're referring to organized religion, thats slightly different.

    "my subjective experience of the world does not include God."

    As I've said before, yes it does. :p In fact, you could spend your whole life trying to convince yourself that you've decided G-D isn't in your world, but in the end realize G-D's been there the whole time.

    "Is he hiding, am I not looking hard enough, or is he just not there? "

    G-D is before you every moment of your life. You've looked hard enough, I'm sure, but sometimes things are hard to recognize if not knowing what to look for. G-D's definately there.

    [EDIT]"Frankly, if logic could be used as proof, there would be many more believers"
    You dont know that for certain. Logic is as contestable as hearing a billion people say they just know G-D is there. As I said before, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink it. If you ask if G-D is there, I'll always remind people He is, but it takes each person to believe it. And logic is just another philosophy. And logic is quite personal. Not everyones logic is the same. Odd.

    G-D
  9. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know if I want god or God to exist, but one way or another I want to know. Yeah there are some concepts in the Bible I disagree with, as well as most religions. But one way or another I want to know the truth even if it is what I don't want.

    To me, it looks like the only 'proof' for God is personal evidence. People have had an experience that has showed them that their current idea of a literal God exists. How do you know that that God is truly perfect? How do you know He is perfectly good? How can you really know anything about Him? And if you don't know, is not your faith blind?

    If God showed Himself to me today, I probably could not trust Him right off the bat. Like in any relationship, trust, friendship, caring comes with time and experience. So if God would stick His finger down and chat with me, it would only be the start of my faith. Trust, love, and the relationship needs to be developed; I will not just blindly love Him the moment I 'see' Him.

    G-D

    G-D is before you every moment of your life.

    I only met you here on these boards, so you have not been in every moment of my life. :p

    Or prove it.
  10. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    EnforcerSG: While I agree that personal experiances are the only *definitive* evidence for the existence of God, I believe the intricacies of the known universe and our world are, as well. :)

    <[-]> Saber
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
  12. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    "Trust, love, and the relationship needs to be developed; I will not just blindly love Him the moment I 'see' Him."

    Though, from a point of view, you cant not love G-D all the time, in some views it seemingly takes an eternity to realize it.

    "G-D is before you every moment of your life.

    I only met you here on these boards, so you have not been in every moment of my life."


    While this may seem true from a certain point of view, you could say you met G-D through the Force... dot net ;)

    Or prove it.

    I'll message you a bit later.

    G-D
  13. My favorite Ithorian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 1
    On a message board, there is always a God.

    And that's the Mod.
  14. MistofAvalon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 4
    Most definatly. If you look around, you'll notice it. This world was not created through random chance. The very fact that we are alive is a miracle.


    I'll state my reasons later, because I have to be up bright and early tomorrow. ;)
  15. Shroom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2004
    star 2
    Following on from my comments on The Flood-

    I appreciate to an extent the point that God would use a natural process to bring about the end of mankind, although I am not entirely convinced. If God is not in any way bound by the laws of physics (like parting the Red Sea) then the options available to him were not limited in any way. Whatever he did was going to be a miraculous intervention in the usual order of things.

    Most of mankind was destroyed, and it was known that God brought about that destruction, and by implication could do it again. That would surely be lesson enough for the people that came later. Whether he did it by miraculously altering weather patterns, or by making people simply drop dead where they stood seems too have little real relevance. Unless of course it was important for people to live long enough to be terrified by the coming of the Flood, in which case I suppose it would be justified as retribution, but I then have difficulty in squaring that with an apparently loving God.

    Another problem I have, which may well come from ignorance of the text, is why humanity was killed in the first place. My knowledge is rather sketchy, but I understand that it was because mankind had sinned. However, God had given mankind free will, and would have realised at the time that a consequence of excercising that free will is that mankind might sin. Those that did sin would presumably be judged at the end of their natural life. I don't understand why the rules suddenly changed, why did God intervene and effectively say that although I've given you all free will, I don't like what you are doing with it so I'm now going to kill your physical form, and then presumably your "soul". Given that time had no meaning to him, why would he need to rush things by killing everyone together? And why could he not leave well alone to give these people a chance to repent, or for their children and ancestors to mend their ways? It seems rather a betrayal of free will to kill people for using it in ways you disapprove of. Killing them removed the responsibillity they had to choose how to live their lives, as they were only given one choice, my way or the highway! Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

    On the various points that have been made about the impobability of this universe existing as evidence of supernatural intervention, I think the argument has already been made that this sort of thinking just cannot apply here. There could have been an infinite number of universes we don't know about which developed in ways that couldn't support life. But across that infinity of universes, it only takes one to develop life which becomes conscious and self aware. At some point that creature will think "Wow, isn't it amazing that everything is just right to allow me to exist. I need air to breathe, and its all around me! I need food to eat and its growing here as well! What are the chances..."

    But they think this without really appreciating that if things had been slightly different other, completely unrecognisable life could have developed in their place. If things had been very different, "their" universe might simply have joined all those countless others which collapsed before they got going, or became barren, echoing voids.

  16. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    It wasn't just that people were sinning; they were wicked beyond redemption: "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that the had made men on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have mamde them" (Genesis 5-7 KJV). Genesis 11-12 explains further: "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (KJV). Basically, things were so bad God was sorry that he had made the world, and decided to unmake it. (This was not a thing unheard of; I believe that according to some Jewish legends, our world was not the first that God created, but that the others were all destroyed.) Why are we still here, then? God may be quick to anger at times, but he's not heartless. He looked upon Noah and his family and saw that they were still righteous, so he would not destroy them with the rest of the world, but rather, saved them to seed the new human race. Since they were to live and creation was not to be destroyed, God therefore needed Noah to bring the animals along. Originally they would have perished with the Earth, but God wanted to preserve the world as much as possible for Noah and his family to live in. But if what happened to the world seems too severe a punishment, it's actually a reduction of sentence, since originally the world was going to be completely obliterated for the wickedness perpetrated by man.

    -Paul
  17. Vaders_leash Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I think that this god would have had more of a reason to destroy mankind with the flood following WWII. Now that I think about it, he probably should have.

    There is a god if you're a type of person to believe in him. And the tpe of person you are determines what you intend to do about it.

    In my 34 years, I've never encountered a group of people more obtuse or easier to offend than Christians.
  18. Marcus-Aurelius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 2
    I believe in a God who has no gender. I think God is a God of Love first and foremost. Since non-Christians are on these forums, I shan't say anything else about my beliefs. This isn't a pulpit!
  19. Jedi_Master_Anakin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    "There is a god"

    God or god?

    There is a big difference you know.

    Peace

    JMA
  20. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    I think that this god would have had more of a reason to destroy mankind with the flood following WWII. Now that I think about it, he probably should have.
    Possibly true, although we don't get too much detail on exactly how the human race had gone wrong. Then again, God did promise that He'd never do it again, so fortunately we were spared that.

    -Paul
  21. -Z- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2003
    star 2
    I think a little levity is in order.

    So, ever hear of the agnostic insomniac dyslexic? Yeah, he stayed up all night wondering if there really was a dog.
  22. BLACKJEBUS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    God or god?

    There is a big difference you know.


    Well if you want to get technical, God IS a god or the god.

    There may be none, one, or many gods. Many people call their god "God". Their God is still a god.
  23. Marcus-Aurelius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 2
    I think the capitalisation of the G is out of respect for Him. Why else do we say capitalise the H in He or Him?

    If you're wondering why I'm calling God He after I just said that I don't believe God has a gener in my last post, it's because everyone else does it. I wouldn't want to call God He/She/It!
  24. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    darthOB1

    You are next on my list of people to reply too... just not tonight.

    Others. If you read my first post, you would see why I used 'god' and not 'God,' because yes, there is a big diffrence.
  25. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
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