There is a god

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by EnforcerSG, Mar 18, 2004.

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  1. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Therefore, we went against God's plan (a perfect being would make a perfect plan; it couldn't be any other way). If the fault lies in us, then it is still God's fault, since God gave us the capacity to do so. If God's perfect plan isn't fulfilled to the letter, then God isn't perfect.

    Please read post after because I already partially answered.

    Free will is a gift not a mistake, Go the the free will thread and checkout all of the arguments there because I really don't want bring all the evidience back into this court!

    A perfect being can not be anything less; everything that God does would be perfect, even his very thoughts. Humanity is not perfect, therefore God could not even think about creating us.

    Humanity is not perfect because of the choice our parents made. Again go to the free will discussion for that all my arguments are there!

    Free will
  2. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    My whole point is accountability!

    If you don't believe in God you are really not accountable to anyone/anything but yourself. Simple as that end of story.


    I don't see how accountability comes into play where Christianity is concerned. It gives the adherent no reason to be good. Examples? I could be the perfect law-abiding citizen, donate to good causes and be nice to kittens, and I get sent to Hell. OTOH, a serial killer can accept Jesus with their dying breath and go to Heaven. Where is the accountability in this case?

    EDIT:
    Humanity is not perfect because of the choice our parents made. Again go to the free will discussion for that all my arguments are there!

    If Adam and Eve were created perfect, it would be impossible for them to become imperfect. Your point is null and void, I'm afraid.
  3. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I'm going to explain my own theory. You may hate or love it but it is mine. I'm sure others share it.

    I think that the black of space always existed and always will. A chemical reaction occured and the Big Bangs happened. Some came trillions of years before us. Some will come trillions of years after us. God created the Big Bangs. From the Big Bangs the galaxies are created and in them planets. On a select few planets life develops in simple stages. On a few of these intelligent life evolves (following Darwin's Theories) Eventually humanity (and who knowns what else) enters the stage. Intelligent life has a million explanations for what God is and what he wants from us. All of these beliefs share some things in common. God does not effect our lives. He does not create floods or storms, he does not personally decide who dies. God watches over, but does not touch. Then we die and who knows what happens. We could cease, we could be in afterlife. Your guess is as good as mine. Eventually our Earth will be taken by the Sun. New Galaxies will be created, old suns will die, new big bangs will occur far from our galaxy. God and Space were always there. Nothing created them, they were just there and always will be.

    Man is in control of his own destiny!
    Man has morals not because of God but because it is right! And because Man hates Chaos.
    Science is what effects our lives!


    -Seldon
  4. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    We were not meant to live in the conditions we are living in today!

    Just look around man! If you can honestly say we are supposed to suffer and live in pain like we do everyday all around the world, then you are fit to live in this system and will go down when it all ends!

    Gods purpose for man was to enjoy life !

    It is contrary to Gods love to purposely put us though this kind of life!

    God didn't do it to us, our original parents did!

    Blame them and ultimatly Satan not God!
    I don't pretend to fathom the mind or purposes of God. But I don't know why the natural assumption is that He created the world to be a perfect place. Me, for one - I enjoy life. In spite of the pain I find in the world sometimes, I love being alive. I love my absolute freedom to make my own moral choices.

    I appreciate your particularly kind, Christian words in telling me you are happy that I'll "go down when it all ends." Despite your assessment, I know where I stand. I believe in God, I love Him, and when I die (or the world ends), I am going to Heaven to be near Him for an eternity.

    I don't "blame" God for mortality and human pain. I love Him for it. I'm not sure whether or not I'd want any part of a god who really truly wanted to deny me Knowledge. However, I know that my God loves me, and that he made me as I am, and I believe He created the Tree of Knowledge for that purpose.

    If humanity had never left paradise in Eden, then human existence would have been utterly meaningless. It is the world, and our faults, and our mortal lives, that give us meaning, in my opinion. If we truly believe in an omnipotent God, then we must believe that He could change the system on which the world operates if he wished. I don't see why he would. I think our mortal existence is the most beautiful gift God could give us before bringing us to Him in Heaven.

    Take your watch apart into all the various components. Put them in a box. Statistically you should be able to shake it and all the pieces will once again form your watch in perfect working order.
    This comparrison is specious. The chances that would actually happen are infinitesimal. I haven't done the math (and wouldn't know how), but I imagine that if you shook the box your whole life the odds would still give you less of a chance of reassembling that watch than the average lottery odds. Besides, you're completely ignoring the additional forces you're exerting on the watch by shaking it. I'd say the odds are probably as good or better that the watch would spontaneously reform itself. And your comparrison is invalid besides, because we can see the mathematics behind the watch problem, whereas we have no mathematics to describe God. Bad choice.

    You can't teach morality to wild animals, and they can't learn it on their own.
    I'm not sure I agree. I think it would be very possible to teach a monkey not to grab people's butts, or always to clasp its hands and bow its head before eating. It just wouldn't have a concept of why such things were morally proper. I guess you could argue that understanding is what morality is, but it's so often reduced into a list of rights and wrongs. At any rate, I won't necessarily buy this statement.

    I don't see how accountability comes into play where Christianity is concerned. It gives the adherent no reason to be good. Examples? I could be the perfect law-abiding citizen, donate to good causes and be nice to kittens, and I get sent to Hell. OTOH, a serial killer can accept Jesus with their dying breath and go to Heaven. Where is the accountability in this case?
    I don't really accept this. I can't believe that my universally-loving God damns good people just because they don't believe in Him. Sure, if someone is basically evil and also rejects God, Hell's his final destination. But I really truly believe it's not as clear-cut as believers go to Heaven, non-believers go to Hell. God isn't that heartl
  5. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    I don't see how accountability comes into play where Christianity is concerned. It gives the adherent no reason to be good. Examples? I could be the perfect law-abiding citizen, donate to good causes and be nice to kittens, and I get sent to Hell. OTOH, a serial killer can accept Jesus with their dying breath and go to Heaven. Where is the accountability in this case?

    Not according to my beliefs.
    Your accountability is always to God and God alone! He knows what's in a heart whether or not you are good or bad. Your basing your prejudices because of what men have done and said.

    The only one that has a right to judge anybody is God!

    EDIT:
    Humanity is not perfect because of the choice our parents made. Again go to the free will discussion for that all my arguments are there!

    If Adam and Eve were created perfect, it would be impossible for them to become imperfect. Your point is null and void, I'm afraid.

    Null and void [face_laugh]
    what a cop out!

    With choice comes consequenses. God gave them a free will to choose to do right or to do wrong. They chose the later and suffered the consequenses of death and imperfection.

    If you choose not to believe in God then you are exerciseing your conscience decision based on what you deem to be reality. This is fine by me, not sweat off of my back. In your defense you will not have any retribution for thinking this way if your right.

    I too will suffer not consequences for beileving there is a God, and this is also cool for me to accept.

    However now turn the tables. And view it from my point of view. Are we both still good to go? You be the judge I cannot!



  6. scum&villainy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 4
    The wacth analogy:
    "Take your watch apart into all the various components. Put them in a box. Statistically you should be able to shake it and all the pieces will once again form your watch in perfect working order"
    is quite simply the most sensationally ignorant analogy any theist can use.

    It's as wilfully, grossly thoughtless as atheists using the pink unicorn tactic, and nobody wishing to debate theories or exchange ideas should be going near it.

    This thread is crap.
  7. Mace's Apprentice Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2000
    star 1
    I believe that God exists in another dimension beyond time and space.

    What bothers me is that God would create a massive universe, and place us in a very small and insignificant part of it. What's the use?

  8. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    darthOB1 said
    Just look around man! If you can honestly say we are supposed to suffer and live in pain like we do everyday all around the world, then you are fit to live in this system and will go down when it all ends!

    darth_paul said:
    I appreciate your particularly kind, Christian words in telling me you are happy that I'll "go down when it all ends." Despite your assessment, I know where I stand. I believe in God, I love Him, and when I die (or the world ends), I am going to Heaven to be near Him for an eternity.

    I never said I'd be happy that you'd go down with this system, you are putting words in my mouth.

    I simply stated that if you believe it is gods original purpose for mankind to suffer the way we do today , then you are better suited to live in this mess than I, and if you are god fearing and even know what that means you shoould also know the this system is not going to be this way forever and it will not last! But I suspect either way you do not!


    Take your watch apart into all the various components. Put them in a box. Statistically you should be able to shake it and all the pieces will once again form your watch in perfect working order.
    This comparrison is specious. The chances that would actually happen are infinitesimal. I haven't done the math (and wouldn't know how), but I imagine that if you shook the box your whole life the odds would still give you less of a chance of reassembling that watch than the average lottery odds. Besides, you're completely ignoring the additional forces you're exerting on the watch by shaking it. I'd say the odds are probably as good or better that the watch would spontaneously reform itself. And your comparrison is invalid besides, because we can see the mathematics behind the watch problem, whereas we have no mathematics to describe God. Bad choice.


    For you and scum:

    Not even sure we are disagreeing on this. However it was meant as an illustrative rebutle to F_I_Ds post about proving god exists. Thats all.
  9. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    I never said I'd be happy that you'd go down with this system, you are putting words in my mouth.
    I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I was slightly twisting what you said in the interests of sarcasm. Consider it retracted.

    I simply stated that if you believe it is gods original purpose for mankind to suffer the way we do today , then you are better suited to live in this mess than I, and if you are god fearing and even know what that means you shoould also know the this system is not going to be this way forever and it will not last! But I suspect either way you do not!
    I wouldn't precisely say I'm God-fearing, for I don't really see God as someone to be feared. I'm God-loving, and I think that's what counts.

    Concerning the system - Yes, I do know there will be an end to human suffering. I don't pretend to know, however, whether it will come in this world or only in the next. In the interest of hedging my bets, I plan to make good use of the wonderful life God has so generously given me.

    -Paul
  10. MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    "The wacth analogy is quite simply the most sensationally ignorant analogy any theist can use."

    Just be glad no one's brought up Pascal's wager yet...
  11. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    He didn't know! There was no reason for God to think that they would disobey.

    So he's not omnipresent?
  12. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    Hello,

    a few notes...

    If Adam and Eve were created perfect, it would be impossible for them to become imperfect. Your point is null and void, I'm afraid.

    For Adam and Eve to be created perfect, they would be just like G-D. That's correct.

    Your accountability is always to God and God alone! He knows what's in a heart whether or not you are good or bad. Your basing your prejudices because of what men have done and said.

    The only one that has a right to judge anybody is God!


    G-D is the only one who has every right to judge anyone and everything. That doesn't mean G-D would want to use that right.

    If you don't believe in God you are really not accountable to anyone/anything but yourself. Simple as that end of story.


    Try spinning that statement a bit and you would get something like this... "If you do believe in G-D, you really are not accountable to anyone/anything but yourself."

    I don't see how accountability comes into play where Christianity is concerned. It gives the adherent no reason to be good. Examples? I could be the perfect law-abiding citizen, donate to good causes and be nice to kittens, and I get sent to Hell. OTOH, a serial killer can accept Jesus with their dying breath and go to Heaven. Where is the accountability in this case?

    All the information in regards to a case like this is not presented here.

    I believe in God, I love Him, and when I die (or the world ends), I am going to Heaven to be near Him for an eternity.

    Where else could anyone possibly go? (thats a rhetorical question)

    If humanity had never left paradise in Eden, then human existence would have been utterly meaningless.

    When did we ever leave paradise? I suppose some are still convinced this isn't paradise. That's their right but it doesn't mean this isn't paradise.

    I think our mortal existence is the most beautiful gift God could give us before bringing us to Him in Heaven.

    I'd say this slightly differently since going to be with G-D in Heaven is also anyones choice. Well, when it occurs is anyways.

    I stated before that Hell is isolation from God and Heaven is nearness to God.

    I'd propose that Heaven isn't exactly the same to everyone. There are those who'd find isolation from everything as being Heaven almost as much as there are those who'd find being in great company being Heaven. And there are those who'd feel Heaven would be a place where one could be utterly alone when wanted and in great company when wanted. The perception of choice is Heavenly. As to being near to G-D, it's impossible not to be.

    I believe that God exists in another dimension beyond time and space.

    G-D can exist wherever and whenever G-D wants to exist. That includes being right here, typing to a message board.

    What bothers me is that God would create a massive universe, and place us in a very small and insignificant part of it. What's the use?

    For fun....do you realize there are ameoba feeling your vibes and wondering what is bothering you? After humans have spread to more areas and occupy half of the Universe, will that question be answered? I would say not.

    I know this isn't directed at me but...

    I simply stated that if you believe it is gods original purpose for mankind to suffer the way we do today , then you are better suited to live in this mess than I...

    You're better suited to live in this "mess", as you call it, than you're aware. Actually, you ARE living right now. Suited enough? I'd say so.

    Take your watch apart into all the various components. Put them in a box. Statistically you should be able to shake it and all the pieces will once again form your watch in perfect working order.

    A solution to this would be to build a device that will continually shake a box until the watch reforms itself. But I'd be sure to make observers aware that it probably would take till the end of time to achieve it.

    you shoould also know the this system is not going to be this way forever and
  13. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Just be glad no one's brought up Pascal's wager yet...

    Don't worry, they will. ;)
  14. Dani1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 3
    Darth OB1

    Not according to my beliefs.

    You've got no problem from me then.

    what a cop out!

    With choice comes consequenses. God gave them a free will to choose to do right or to do wrong. They chose the later and suffered the consequenses of death and imperfection.


    It isn't really a cop out. You stated that things aren't going the way God planned, I stated that if things aren't going that way then God isn't perfect. Free will and choice are pretty irrelevant to this point.

    If you choose not to believe in God then you are exerciseing your conscience decision based on what you deem to be reality.

    How could I possibly choose (not) to believe in God? Do you think that I have the ability to change my deepest held beliefs on a whim? Would you be able to choose not to believe in him if you wanted to?

    G-D

    A solution to this would be to build a device that will continually shake a box until the watch reforms itself. But I'd be sure to make observers aware that it probably would take till the end of time to achieve it.

    To add onto this slightly, the results would parallel the universe much more closely if we had a countless number of boxes shaking until the end of time.
  15. Earthknight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2002
    star 4
    There is always the infamous discussion on whether there is a God or there isn't. Personally, I believe there is a God. But one day I sat down and I began think deeper into each theory on how life was created. And each time when I thought deep on the topic, I ran into a brick wall, until the question finally hit me. How did all creation happened!? I mean first, one theory is that life created from a big bang. But then here comes next question. What caused the big bang to happen? So we can say that the big bang was caused from tiny little particles. But then we come to the next question. What created the particles? So we head to the next theory. God created all life and the universe. But then I asked myself many questions. Like this. What created God? What created the thing that created God? And what created the thing that created the thing that created God? Finally after looking at every single theory we come to the inevitable eerie brick wall question. How did all this begin? You see I believe there is a God and he created everything, but I also sometimes think that there's something else that started this whole thing. I don't know what but I do know that everything has an origin. We had an origin and I feel that God, our father, had one as well.
  16. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    With choice comes consequenses. God gave them a free will to choose to do right or to do wrong. They chose the later and suffered the consequenses of death and imperfection.

    I know this has very little to do with what you guys are talking about. But what's always bothered me about heaven and hell is the bible's assumption that there is such thing as true free will. Through psychology we've come to understand that people do things for various psychological reasons, a criminal doesn't become a criminal through a clear choice of circumstances. Usually he becomes a criminal because of his environment, his predetermined personality traits, his parents, his intelligence level, and other external factors.

    But the whole idea of a hell is that he made the choice to commit crime, that he knew the difference between right and wrong and he chose to be do wrong. Which to most people reading this right now they're thinking "he clearly made a choice, commit a crime or don't commit a crime". But it's not that simple, the bible assumes we're all on a level playing field, and when we live our lives we choose everything we do. But we're not on a level playing field, you put someone with low intelligence in a bad environment (abusive parents for instance) and in an environment where the only thing they know is to do bad things, chances are they're going to be bad people. But they don't directly choose to live that life, that's all they were raised to know. So basically God is sending them to hell because of a situation he put them in.

    The other problem is how the bible says the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Well what about those that have never heard of Christianity? I've heard people argue that God makes sure everyone gets a choice in life, to follow the righteous path of Christianity or not to. So even if someone lives in the Congo, at some point in their lives someone is going to try to preach them the words of Jesus Christ and they have to make that choice right then and there.

    Ok, let's say God does make sure everyone hears the words of the bible, that is still not a real choice. If someone goes up to me and says "follow the path of Jesus Christ or you're going to hell" and I say "no thanks", is that a real choice? The only real choice would be if God came down and said "believe in me you'll go to heaven, if not you'll go hell". Without knowing the possible outcome, it's not a real choice. Meaning if I choose to not be a Christian it just means I'm choosing not to be a Christian based on the information given to me, not that I'm denying Christianity itself, I'm denying what that person has asked me to become.

    If everyone here knew Christianity was fact, that would be a choice. It's hard to explain on a forum, so it probably isn't coming out right.

    The fact is that most of the people on here that are Christian were probably raised by Christian parents. Any one of you could just have easily been born in Iran and could be on here arguing for Islam. If that doesn't bring home the point I'm trying to make nothing does. We are who we are because of factors that we have no control over, so there is no such thing as true free will, we're bound by a set of circumstances that predetermined what and who we'd be.
  17. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    I know this has very little to do with what you guys are talking about. But what's always bothered me about heaven and hell is the bible's assumption that there is such thing as true free will. Through psychology we've come to understand that people do things for various psychological reasons, a criminal doesn't become a criminal through a clear choice of circumstances. Usually he becomes a criminal because of his environment, his predetermined personality traits, his parents, his intelligence level, and other external factors.

    But the whole idea of a hell is that he made the choice to commit crime, that he knew the difference between right and wrong and he chose to be do wrong. Which to most people reading this right now they're thinking "he clearly made a choice, commit a crime or don't commit a crime". But it's not that simple, the bible assumes we're all on a level playing field, and when we live our lives we choose everything we do. But we're not on a level playing field, you put someone with low intelligence in a bad environment (abusive parents for instance) and in an environment where the only thing they know is to do bad things, chances are they're going to be bad people. But they don't directly choose to live that life, that's all they were raised to know. So basically God is sending them to hell because of a situation he put them in.


    You're assumption is incorrect. There is actually a lot of evidence in the Bible for predestination. Heck, it uses to word several times. I'm struggling with the idea, but it's getting continually harder for me to not believe in it. Yet I still have found a way to believe in freedom of choice...

    The other problem is how the bible says the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Well what about those that have never heard of Christianity? I've heard people argue that God makes sure everyone gets a choice in life, to follow the righteous path of Christianity or not to. So even if someone lives in the Congo, at some point in their lives someone is going to try to preach them the words of Jesus Christ and they have to make that choice right then and there.

    Ok, let's say God does make sure everyone hears the words of the bible, that is still not a real choice. If someone goes up to me and says "follow the path of Jesus Christ or you're going to hell" and I say "no thanks", is that a real choice? The only real choice would be if God came down and said "believe in me you'll go to heaven, if not you'll go hell". Without knowing the possible outcome, it's not a real choice. Meaning if I choose to not be a Christian it just means I'm choosing not to be a Christian based on the information given to me, not that I'm denying Christianity itself, I'm denying what that person has asked me to become.

    If everyone here knew Christianity was fact, that would be a choice. It's hard to explain on a forum, so it probably isn't coming out right.

    The fact is that most of the people on here that are Christian were probably raised by Christian parents. Any one of you could just have easily been born in Iran and could be on here arguing for Islam. If that doesn't bring home the point I'm trying to make nothing does. We are who we are because of factors that we have no control over, so there is no such thing as true free will, we're bound by a set of circumstances that predetermined what and who we'd be.


    From my observation, here in America most Christians claim it as their beliefs because their parents do. However, most Christians in the WORLD were raised under the worst conditions for someone to accept Christianity in. People growing up in abusive families, folks living in the Congo, or in Iran, etc. Read up on it some time. It's quite amazing. ;)
  18. Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 6
    Didn't God also say that His second coming would be when "The word of God was preached all over the world" or something to that effect? That would show who is ready and who is not, yes.

    Since we are on the topic of free will I would like to present my theory.
    There's many things that God and Jesus commanded people in the Bible where the end result isn't what they told the person to do, like when Jesus would tell a man not to tell a certain crowd/city what he did for the man(I forget the details) yet the man did it anyway. Even though God would give many people an edge in some situations, His testing of their human quality reveals their faults that are to be corrected before they enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Life on Earth is a preparation for eternal life and the fact that people fail isn't because God "didn't set anything up right", because Lucifer and the angels that followed him weren't brought up with any 'bad group' like those who were raised the wrong way on Earth by fellow humans.
    Earth is like a trial version of Heaven and to ensure there won't be any other 'Lucifers' in Heaven some need to be 'filtered' in an almost Spartan way to get there, though unlike the Spartans you have a longer time and more choices to ensure you're not disposed of.
  19. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    You're assumption is incorrect. There is actually a lot of evidence in the Bible for predestination. Heck, it uses to word several times. I'm struggling with the idea, but it's getting continually harder for me to not believe in it. Yet I still have found a way to believe in freedom of choice...

    I'd like to see evidence of this. If we're all predestined to be who we are, then there is no free will like I've been saying. So how can God choose for a predetermined outcome for our lives to happen but send us to hell because of it?

    As far as your last point about most people in the world being converted to Christiantiy and not being raised into Christianity, you put anybody in a bad situation and you offer them a chance for their life to be better, a chance for them to have something to live for, and you're going to get followers. Unfortunately that seems to be the only time people actually look to God, is when they need something, when they want something, when they're feeling down, when their life is going the way they want it to.

    Look at all the Christians on Death Row, they want something to believe in, they want comfort when they die. That's why religion exists in the first place. But the point I was trying to make about Christians being Christians because of their parents is that they didn't choose that path, their parents chose it for them. That's not free will, and as I've been saying we're predetermined to be who we are because of factors we have little control over.
  20. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    Edit: Nevermind.

    <[-]> Saber
  21. scum&villainy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 4
    There've been some valid points made since I last posted - ones I;d love to hear a Christian's views on - namely, why, given that we can quite clearly see that upbringing and environment greatly affect personal behaviour, does Gos allow people to be born int o lives whereby they're almost doomed to repaet the mistakes of their parents?

    Why make The Test (because that's all life is, ultimately) harder for some, ie the poor, the abused, the disadvantaged, the neglected, than others, ie the comfortable?
  22. Vagrant Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 3
    Objective morality? Sure, there could be such a thing, but why should the Judeo-Christian version be the One True Objective Morality? How do we know it's the Morality for mankind?
  23. Mister_Bunny Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 3
    Morals are temporary constructs of society.

    It used to be moral to stone your son for being a rebellious drunkard, I have learned from the bible. It also was moral to attempt to blood sacrifice your children to please God in a "test".

    Apparently, it's also was moral to cause the deaths of all women, children, unborn children, men, chickens, polar bears, cacti, and fungus on the planet except for those whom boarded Noah's ark. (Think of all the wonderful Sequoia trees drowning horribly in seawater).

    It also was moral to be married to a bunch of women at once... etcetra, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of the Judeo-Christian morality.

    Have you thought that if Eve did not yet taste of the fruit, that she had no knowledge of "evil" and thus had no free-will in deciding to eat the fruit? She had no knowledge that disobeying God's command was bad, because it was only after eating the fruit that she .... oh, waitasecond, keep on believing, if that is what keeps you from slitting my throat.
  24. danmcken Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2003
    star 3
    god is an excuse for people who cant except what they really are!
  25. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    My point is not that there is objective morality and therefore a god (not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God, just some general god); I am asking why do many of us believe or act like there is objective morality? If we have just been raised to? Well at some point people were not taught to be that way, someone had to start to raise us that way? Or why is it natural, and are the natural answers to this question simpler than god made some sort of objective morality?
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