There is a god

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by EnforcerSG, Mar 18, 2004.

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  1. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
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    Darn double post... If a mod wants to get rid of this, go ahead.
  2. BLACKJEBUS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    Here's a question that I have not thought of until today, and I just thought I would share it because I really know what some of the others here think:

    Assuming a god exists, would we know at all if he/she died or suddenly ceased to exist?

    I know the theists here would say that God is eternal, but it is entirely a hypothetical question. A better version of the question would be: would our lives on Earth be any different tomorrow if God's intervention suddenly stopped? Would anyone really notice?
  3. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Personally, I believe so, since I believe that pretty much everything is happening because God caused it to happen. Whether you say God is continually affecting the universe and all therein or He simply started it all and then backed off, everything has been caused BY Him.

    There's no way aruond it.
  4. BLACKJEBUS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    Interesting. So you think everything will suddenly stop, as if a puppeteer put away his marionettes?

    You don't believe that the world and the physical universe that God built could continue without his constant supervision and maintanance? I am just wondering what the signal to people would be if such a thing were to happen, because as an atheist, I don't see a god involved in day-to-day occurrances and I think the world would be unchanged.
  5. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Interesting. So you think everything will suddenly stop, as if a puppeteer put away his marionettes?

    Well, sort of. I mean if we go with the first scenario, that God is indeed controlling everything, then that's what would happen. If we go with the second, however, that everything is only happening the way it is because of the first cause, then essentially God has already stepped back and let if fly. Therefore, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to notice a change, because no matter what happens it would have been due to God's influence.

    You don't believe that the world and the physical universe that God built could continue without his constant supervision and maintanance?

    It depends; if God designed it to operate on its own, then yes, I of course believe it could, and in fact, if that's the case, that it does. However, my personal belief is that God affected the world in the greatest way imaginable 2,000 years ago by becoming man to defeat sin. And while there were a few neat tricks performed during that time, everything was ultimately done using elements of the natural world. If, then, a significant "change" was not detected in said event, where do we draw the line? We say God intervened with Noah when He flooded the entire earth, yet when we see the local floods from day to day all across the globe, we say it's simply mother nature. We say that the earthquake that destroyed Jericho was due to God's intervention, but not the volcanic erruption in Pompeii. Now as far as I'm concerned, this means one of three things: 1. God controls EVERYTHING, 2. God controls NOTHING, or 3. God controls SOME things, be we ourselves can never be quite certain when it's Him or when it's just the system doing its own thing.

    Given the truth that God's plan is going to happen no matter what, if we go by the Bible, I am leaning towards the first option (with a few slight variations, possibly).

    I am just wondering what the signal to people would be if such a thing were to happen, because as an atheist, I don't see a god involved in day-to-day occurrances and I think the world would be unchanged.

    You say that, but tell me (hypothetically speaking), what would convince you personally that God is involved? Would it be a booming voice from the heavens? Would it be to witness some kind of freaky, uncommon display of a natural thing? Ultimately, for your natural senses to detect God you would need to witness Him in a natural manner; thus, everything that happens that you contribute to chance quite possibly could be God's intervention.
  6. BLACKJEBUS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    You say that, but tell me (hypothetically speaking), what would convince you personally that God is involved? Would it be a booming voice from the heavens? Would it be to witness some kind of freaky, uncommon display of a natural thing?

    I honestly don't know what I would accept as proof of God's existence, mostly because I don't have a reference point to compare a god to and I don't think most theists do either. At the same time I feel I haven't seen any evidence for a god except for what other people tell me about him, including the Bible and stories about Jesus. Most people who believe in God do so with total confidence, even though their faith is more or less blind. Theists, I find, because they believe, look for evidence of their God everywhere and find it in both the simplest and arcane of places. An atheist like myself doesn't see theists' evidence as anything unnatural, unordinary, or even remotely attributable to a divine being.

    Ultimately, for your natural senses to detect God you would need to witness Him in a natural manner; thus, everything that happens that you contribute to chance quite possibly could be God's intervention.

    I know what you mean here. However, let's assume that God does regularly intervene with daily activities. If God ceased to intervene, would rare occurances caused by chance suddenly stop? Would their frequency decrease? If the answer to either of these questions is "yes", then would we notice?

    If a God does exist, his influence must be so subtle that it is completely reasonable and excusable for skeptics to dismiss.
  7. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    Or His influence is so pervasive that we hardly notice it. C.S. Lewis, in his book Miracles, asserts that human reason itself hinges on the existence of the supernatural. We depend on human reason so much that we take it for granted.

    It's kind of like light. Light is everywhere, and we see everything else because of light, but you can't see light itself.
  8. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    It's kind of like light. Light is everywhere, and we see everything else because of light, but you can't see light itself.

    not with the naked eye, you can't, but you can observe photons under lab conditions.

    If a God does exist, his influence must be so subtle that it is completely reasonable and excusable for skeptics to dismiss.

    given that, it would be completely unreasonable and unjust for any such god to expect us to believe in him, to disregard all the evidence of reason and our senses and accept a bizarre and ultimately not-very-useful theological mishmash as literal truth.

    honestly, if when i'm dead, some self-important bully wants to show up and tell me i should have ignored everything except a book written by a bunch of ignorant dirt farmers thousands of years before i was born, which all evidence suggests is collection of fables and at-best half-truths, he can kiss my behind.
  9. Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 4
    diz, even under lab conditions you cannot observe photons. All you can do is observe their effects in a different way.


    Again, I suggest that it's not necessarily the case that God's presence is so subtle as to be reasonably disregarded. You appeal to reason, but it's possible that things like human reason are completely untrustworthy without the existence of the supernatural.


    honestly, if when i'm dead, some self-important bully wants to show up and tell me i should have ignored everything except a book written by a bunch of ignorant dirt farmers thousands of years before i was born, which all evidence suggests is collection of fables and at-best half-truths, he can kiss my behind.

    And if a loving, morally perfect Being makes clear that the entire natural universe points to His existence and that the evidence available to you in your lifetime does support the historicity of the Bible, you will be utterly incapable of such childish defiance.

    If you want to suggest my hypothetical situation doesn't further the discussion, just what is the point of your hypothetical?
  10. Force of Nature Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 3
    Don't know about diz, but I long since concluded that, if an omnipotent Being (of whatever nature) exists, we're utterly incapable of doing anything about it anyway.
  11. zaphod_beeblebrox Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2001
    star 1
    I can't help but laugh at religious people and atheists. Both seem so ignorant to each other to the point of not yielding through pride.
    That's partially why I remain safely agnostic. I have absolutely no reason to believe that any type of God exists and absolutely no reason to believe that any type of God doesn't exist.
    I'm quite happy with the notion of never knowing anything.
    All I have is inclinations. For example, I'm more inclined to believe in the theory of evolution over the creation story in the Bible, purely because it seems to have been thought through more and makes a lot of common sense(but, when did that ever matter, look at the Copernican revolution) in todays society.
    Religion-wise, at the moment I'm more inclined to believe that Christianity is an illusion conjured up by Loki (the trickster God from what is now called Asatru) than that it is actually true.
  12. AnthonyMorrow Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 2
    There is no god, you see him point him in my direction ok??
  13. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    You've already decided God doesn't exist; why, then, did you bother to ask for evidence?
  14. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    I'm quite happy with the notion of never knowing anything.

    Ahh, but you do know one thing, at least, zaphod. And, I'd propose 2 things. But at least you know one thing.

    Loki (the trickster God from what is now called Asatru) than that it is actually true.

    I read a book with Loki in it. He was an amused evolved monkey! One in the same?

    honestly, if when i'm dead, some self-important bully wants to show up and tell me i should have ignored everything except a book written by a bunch of ignorant dirt farmers thousands of years before i was born, which all evidence suggests is collection of fables and at-best half-truths, he can kiss my behind.

    Thats assuming G-D is some self-important bully, hmm? How would G-D treat you when you're dead, or 'passed on' then? If some bullyish stereotype doesn't make sense, then what does make sense? Because, you probably realize, if G-D did want to say hi or show himself to you after you've passed on, it very well may make sense to you. For instance, He may look at you and say "what took you so long?" or "how did you like the ride?" or simply enough "welcome back". Thats what would make sense to me. If I do say so myself ;)

    If a God does exist, his influence must be so subtle that it is completely reasonable and excusable for skeptics to dismiss.

    I'd say, to some, it's so infinitely sublte, that it takes till the moment they pass-on to realize G-D was there the whole time. And then, when remembering their life, shake their head at how obvious it was. To others, the knowledge of G-D is seen during the lifespan. And it, too, is so subtle, that when trying to communicate the occurence, the signifigance of it, to someone else, some may result in being laughed at. But those doing the laughing will, at some point, look back and realize G-D has been there the whole time.

    There is no god, you see him point him in my direction ok??

    He's there always. No need for anyone to point him out to you. For all you know, he could be typing to you thru The Force...dot net. As I have said before, thats the beauty of the design :)

    G-D
  15. AnthonyMorrow Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 2
    Hmm.. comical, that was a joke, where is the evidence that god does exist? and if so why does he favor some over others?
  16. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    For instance, He may look at you and say "what took you so long?" or "how did you like the ride?" or simply enough "welcome back". Thats what would make sense to me. If I do say so myself

    You know what death is like, the first few billion years that you missed before you were born... God is a fairytale, and a rather humorous one at that. It's unfortunate that when we die you won't be able to think "oh crap, I wasted my life believing in that junk".

    When I read through this threads I just find myself laughing at the complete absurdity of it all.
  17. AnthonyMorrow Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
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  18. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    God job Cy!

    A G-D job, Cy! What an interesting compliment.

    where is the evidence that god does exist?

    Thanks for asking. All I can say is when you see G-D, you still may do a few double-takes. When it becomes quite apparent, you'll then notice and remember the infinite amount of times G-D has been there. You can shake your head, joke it away, do whatever till the end of your life. But you'll see it and you'll know it. You may even remember this and laugh. Laughter is G-D. And yes, good job.

    You know what death is like
    Now death is funny! Talk about a joke.

    ... the first few billion years that you missed before you were born... God is a fairytale, and a rather humorous one at that. It's unfortunate that when we die you won't be able to think "oh crap, I wasted my life believing in that junk".

    There's a level of humour, no doubt. But you're telling me that if when you die, and there is some G-D and all that, that you think it makes sense that everything is just a fairy tale and that the first words out in your mind will be to the tune of "oh crap..."

    I dont know the complete terms and conditions of this forum, so if this is prohibited please edit it, but I would bet you that the first words in your mind will not be "oh crap..."

    Some words I can imagine are "holy ********" or "you've got to be kidding me..." or "By G-D, he was right..." or "pinch me, am I dreaming?"

    [EDIT] Another phrase which I can imagine is "For Pete's sake, can I not get a minute of rest??" [/EDIT]

    So, I suppose this is somewhat relavent. Lets propose there is Heaven and an afterlife and all that. What would really make sense to you, as to how it will be? Does it really make sense that everyone is gonna be put in the slammer? Does it make sense that there are beings with wings? Thats possibly a whole separate topic? To me, it's ludicrous to imagine an afterlife where there is agony. I cant imagine I'm alone on that. Maybe I am?


    G-D
  19. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    Cyprusg: I would argue no one could live without believing in something. You believe in the non-existence of the supernatural, that is what you've centered your beliefs around.

    Human life is contrary to this. Love is supernatural; love is not an organic phenomenom that has occcured from the neurons functioning back and forth throughout our brain.

    True love is a selfless act. An act contrary to the entire cornerstone of the Evolutionary Theory: man's development hinged on the survival of self at the expense of all else, period.

    Without the existence of God, sex is a means of mere procreation, not means of enjoyment in sharing your love through a physiscal means with your partner as an outward expression of your bond.

    The stakes are too high to build your foundational beliefs on a thought that our existence is based entirely on random implosion into existence that has yet to be adequately explained to this point.

    The idea that a explosion could make all that encompasses what we see is preposterous. Pandemonium is not a means of gaining structure and order.

    <[-]> Saber
  20. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for asking. All I can say is when you see G-D, you still may do a few double-takes. When it becomes quite apparent, you'll then notice and remember the infinite amount of times G-D has been there. You can shake your head, joke it away, do whatever till the end of your life. But you'll see it and you'll know it. You may even remember this and laugh. Laughter is G-D. And yes, good job.

    Haha! God has always been there huh? Well I was a christian for most of my life but grew up to recognize it for what it is, BULLCRAP.

    Arguments purely based on faith are the funniest, it's been like that for every religion before and probably since. It's so sad that people waste their lives believing in such nonsense.
  21. Mr_Boba_Jango Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    It's so sad that people waste their lives believing in such nonsense.

    How does the belief in a creator equate to a waste of ones life?
  22. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
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    SaberGiiett7

    Although you were not replying to me, what you did say is something I have been debating with for a long time.

    I would argue no one could live without believing in something.

    I have to disagree to a point. In one way you are right, and that way is a practical way. I must, in a practical, way believe that the sun will come up tomorrow (not counting things like weather or whatnot). Does that mean I have faith that the sun will come up. To me, no since I am not saying that the sun will undoubtedly come up tomorrow.

    You believe in the non-existence of the supernatural, that is what you've centered your beliefs around.

    Again, for me, no. In a practical way I do not believe in a god. I don't pray (except to ask if there is a god to show herself). I don't go to a church/synagogue/mosk (sp)/whatever... etc. Yet I have no faith one way or another yet.

    Human life is contrary to this. Love is supernatural; love is not an organic phenomenom that has occcured from the neurons functioning back and forth throughout our brain.

    Prove it.

    True love is a selfless act. An act contrary to the entire cornerstone of the Evolutionary Theory: man's development hinged on the survival of self at the expense of all else, period.

    Even if that was the cornerstone, was you seem to assume that helping or loving others will not help the self. It is obvious that what greatness humanity has is from everyone helping each other. If a man and a woman would not love each other than odds are they won't have kids, but the ones that do love each other will and either though chemicals in the brain passed down or behavior taught by the parents, the kids will love as well. To that small degree, survival requires love and if you would like I will come up with bigger examples where society to a points requires at least respect to others to survive.

    Without the existence of God, sex is a means of mere procreation, not means of enjoyment in sharing your love through a physiscal means with your partner as an outward expression of your bond.

    Why not? If both givers and receivers give and accept the love, how is it not a sharing of love through a physical means?

    The stakes are too high to build your foundational beliefs on a thought that our existence is based entirely on random implosion into existence that has yet to be adequately explained to this point.

    That is faith out of fear and building your faith on that is even worse than what you say. Besides, those random whatever?s are the best explanations we have for how the universe came about.

    The idea that a explosion could make all that encompasses what we see is preposterous. Pandemonium is not a means of gaining structure and order.

    Well a mushroom cloud has some order and structure and it does come from an explosion. Even so, you may be right, but please present a better explanation of how the universe came into being that explains the observations we have made of the universe.
  23. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    How does the belief in a creator equate to a waste of ones life?

    The actual belief in a creator does not equate to a waste of life if that's the only factor in play. But more often than not those that believe in a creator participate in some organized religion.

    Why is that a waste of life? For many reasons, could just be a waste of time (although the communities that form as the result of religion is a huge payoff for just a few hours of your week), it's a waste of sexual resources (haha), it's a waste of money at times, etc.. Also I know from my own experience since I've become an atheist I've cherished life a lot more knowing that there isn't something waiting for me when we die.

    But I really shouldn't make such a blanket statement considering religion often gives people a positive direction in their lives, and in just doing that it's not a waste. But it is unfortunate that people need to believe in some fictional God to do good deeds.
  24. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
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    Please present a better explanation of how the universe came into being that explains the observations we have made of the universe.

    OK... God. With the innumerable amount of complexities, I don't see it is possible of every solitary piece of being being placed together to establish a fine-tuned universe. Every minute detail compounds how much of a miracle our very existence is.

    I don't know if you have a child or not, but I can never imagine seeing a mother holding a weak and helpless child, holding it in our arms, and claiming it is anything other than a gift from God.

    Love is a feeling invoked directly from our spirtuality. My proof that it's not the interaction of brain-waves is the fact that individuals would die for others.

    I'm not real good at putting my opinions into words. If I didn't know within myself that what I believe is a fabrication, I'd concede defeat in the snap of a finger. I'm a reasonable person, and I take everything as grain of salt.

    Let me recommend you read The Case For Faith be Lee Strobel. It's comprehensive analyization of every point and counterpoint to the top ten main barriers to individuals' faith in Christ.

    It's not the Bible, but it sure did a lot to help give me some insight in a time when I was struggling. I still have questions that are a hinderance to my faith.

    How could a loving God make profound torment indefinate?

    How is the very creation of man not the ultimate act of selfishness by God himself considering he had prior knowledge the vast majority would reject him, and omnipotence empowered him to be devoid of fellowship to begin with?

    I'm only human; I'm fallible. Once you embrace the fact you're finite being, living in a world where it seems as though a plethora of beliefs can be seen as canon, you just need to trust God.

    <[-]> Saber
  25. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    'God' is not an explanation. I may as well say the universe is natural; it would be on par with just 'God.' If you say something like 'God's word/breath made the universe' that would be like me just saying 'the big bang made it all.' What I want is a blow by blow explanation of what steps the universe took in its formation. Assuming it was God, I want to know exactly what steps God took and how those steps influenced the universe to be what it is today. Until that is done then I feel you have not explained anything.
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