Saga "There is much anger in him"

Sorry I meant Sith Shrine, it's revealed in the cannon book Tarkin, the Jedi thought they can neutralize the Dark side by building their Jedi Temple on top. The Jedi were wrong and weakened by the Darkside flowing through their Temple.

 

It's still not in the film and seems rather important to leave out and make the Jedi just seem like chumps.

It also doesn't explain how Lucas calls this the Jedi at their height and at the height of their powers during this era.

 

It's in writing, but probably not the only reason. The Sith have waited a thousand years planning, coming up with multiple and new methods to destroy the Jedi. The Jedi thought the Sith were destroyed and wasn't prepared for this kind of Sith. They were used to fighting the Sith from over one thousand years we earlier, the Sith adapted new methods. The Jedi weren't ready and totally outplayed

 

What does that mean? That you can make a film that leaves out information that's vital to explain how certain characters do not have the abilities that they are supposed to have (only when the plot needs them not to, conveniently) and the movie can remain inexplicable as long as the missing part that is in writing somewhere else?

The Jedi can't be misguided, unable to perceive the force or use it properly for a thousand years and be at their height at the same time.

For most people, Star Wars is movies first and last. Saying that there are comics and cartoons that devote whole plots and series to justify things that make little sense in the films means that Star Wars movies don't need to be good. They just need books read to explain them.

Well I'm not joining a quasi religious cult of devoutly buying new reading material in order to appreciate some movies that explained themselves quite adequately until about 18 years ago.

 

Your analogy with the clouds is incredibly off the mark.
The Jedi can obviously tell that the Force is currently dominated by the dark side, since that's what they're saying. They can even tell, near the end of the war, that the dark side surrounds Palpatine.
What they can't tell is what's going on within the dark side. Yoda senses Anakin's pain because in that moment, Anakin's emotions are out in the open. He's not being secretive at all. He's all rage. Unlike Palpatine, who keeps his true self hidden.

I'm not sure what you'd expect the Jedi to do about their vague suspicions when they still have no idea what's going on. It's not until Palpatine has been revealed as a Sith and refuses to give up his emergency powers that they actually have something to go on.

 

I keep getting told that The Jedi cannot intuit any potential for danger surrounding Anakin until the very last minute (or after it happens from light years away in Yoda's case).

The new idea that the dark side "clouds everything" making the Jedi incapable of intuiting the true identity of the Chancellor, is at odds with what we are told about the trained Jedi's ability to perceive when the dark side is influencing something. Yoda is impatient at Luke asking him how "You will KNOW." And Luke immediately demonstrates this by detecting the dark side converging within the cave.

According to the PT, Luke needed to be told. "You will not know what's going on because the dark side clouds everything. Your friends, Han and Chewbacca, could be Sith lords and you won't know it until it's too late. Your sister, Leia could be going down the path towards the dark side, but you will never know because the dark side that's influencing her clouds everything."

And you can't blame the dark side clouding everything AND the Chancellor's shielding of his dark nature at the same time to excuse the Jedi being blind.

This contradictory nature of the dark side and is simply an excuse to make things happen or not happen as the plot requires it with no intuitive logic.And it makes the Jedi at their height seem like chumps.

Why then is no caution given regarding Anakin when Yoda feels his pain and suffering? If Anakin is prone to being tempted by the dark side, why is he given such important missions?

There is no rhyme or reason to these things. It's just a big vague excuse used for whenever things do happen or don't happen, often at the same time, to justify an unnecessarily convoluted plot masquerading as a clever one.

 

That's why they have novelization of the movies. Of course they don't explain and show every detail. The movies would be too long.

The Jedi are​ at their height, because they are the only order existing publicly. This is the last time frame the Jedi are in control, before the Sith take over. No one said the Jedi were weak, but they were weaken by the Sith Shrine under them.

If you don't want to gain more knowledge on the StarWars universe that's up to you, but just know others will possess more knowledge on StarWars and the force than you.

 

All Yoda senses is that Anakin is in pain, what he doesn't know is why. he doesn't know that Anakin decided to go to Tatooine. The Jedi can sense that something is wrong, what they don't know is the sources of theses disturbances in the Force in the same way that Palpatine didn't foresee Luke on Endor but Vader did. By the time of RotS, the Jedi are very suspicious of Palpatine so saying that they are completely clueless is not really supported by the movies.

 

Plausible and non-contradictory motivation is not just "detail". If the plot defies the values and qualities of the Jedi and the Force set up by the movies already, then this needs to be convincingly justified IN the movie.

 

But the Force is not like a metal detector, unless they reach out to find out who it is they can't know for sure and in this case, the darkside is clouding their vision. There is nothing contradictory with what the OT established about the Force.

 

Martoto77: What you say doesn't add up. At all. Nowhere has it been stated that because you can detect the dark side's presence you can also detect the secrets of those who use it. You made that up.

 

I never said they can detect their secrets. They can intuit their motivation. If it's fear, hatred or anger. And from that they can consider their strategy and how they handle people.

If the conditions are such that the Jedi are incapable of inferring these things in individuals, then they would also be unable to sense it among themselves and not just Anakin, Palpatine and whoever.

But it only seems to be unclouded whenever the plot needs something to happen or not to happen with no real logic.

 

I think you just want all the Knowledge to be given to you by the movies. If you want to know further details you have read and watch the TV shows. Apparently you were interested in having your theories on the OT justified, because you did watch the PT. When you read a book about different characters or watch a TV show, of course they're going to show a connection to the main storyline.

 

He would have issues because being a ghost does him no good, when he cannot use it to stop Padme from dying. He cannot train himself to be a ghost because right now, he is not completely selfless. He is selfish. To become one with the Force, he must become a completely selfless and compassionate individual. He must know himself, his true self and then let go of it. Right now, he is far from that. It is only when he has turned back from the dark side that he is ready and able to become a ghost.

He's properly trained. He just lacks the emotional and mental discipline.

He is ignorant because the boy is hiding from him his true feelings the same way that Dooku hid from him. He also trusts the boy enough to try and work it out, because there have been other Jedi who have come close and manage to turn back.

Yoda is talking about when a Jedi knows between the good and bad in themselves, not in others. Luke realizes the darkness within himself when he's fighting Vader the second time, which is why he pulls back like he does. Anakin sees it in himself, but only after he has done the deed. Such as after killing the Tuskens, he realizes that what he did was wrong, but it had also felt good. After he nearly kills Rush Clovis, he snaps out of it and realizes again that he was wrong. When he goes to kill Dooku, he knows that it is wrong, but feels justified when he does it. Then feels remorse afterwards. The lines between good and evil become blurred within Anakin's mind and this is why he has trouble distinguishing between them.

What Yoda senses in the Force is an outburst of emotional pain and a sense of death, but he is unaware of the true nature of what it is that he feels. Also remember that when Luke is near the tree cave, he feels cold and death. A place or a person strong with the dark side, like the tree cave or a Sith Lord, gives off a strong negative vibe. It is the antithesis of the Living Force, which is life that makes it grow and that everyone is a luminous being. Ezra Bridger also feels the same when he encounters Vader, for the first time.

It never enters his mind, nor Mace's, nor any other Jedi, that Palpatine is Sidious. They just see him as a corrupt politician.

They have tried to get at the truth. That's why they want Anakin to spy on Palpatine, to see what his agenda is. The thing is that Mace is unaware of the depths of Anakin's deception. Of his attachments. He senses Anakin's fear and confusion about Palpatine, but mistakenly believes it is because he has looked up to Palpatine for years and has just now been betrayed by him. That he is a man who he once considered a respected and trusted friend, only to find out that he is the enemy. He doesn't trust him to be objective in dealing with him. He has no clue that the boy's true feelings is for his wife who is dying and that he will come there because he believes that he's caused her death by telling them.

Qui-gon senses their fear because they're not hiding their emotions from a Jedi. They don't even know that there are Jedi on board until after this scene. The point of this dialogue is that they're sensing the fear because they're afraid of Sidious, more than they are of getting caught. It also shows that in TPM, the Jedi's powers are still at optimum levels, but as Palpatine climbs up the ladder to become Emperor, his actions cause the Force to become unbalanced and the Jedi's powers weaken. This is a call back to the earlier drafts of ANH and the final film, where the Jedi's powers are weakening and it is combined with the notion that the dark and light can have an influence on all people. That the dark has grown stronger over the light and thus causes all of the things that are bad in the galaxy.

Anakin lied to the Jedi about what happened on Tatooine. He just told them that he had found his mother had been kidnapped and died, but not what he did afterwards. He then took the time following the Battle of Geonosis to become a better Jedi. These actions lead the Council and Yoda in particular, to believe he was ready to become a Knight. The Jedi begin to trust in Anakin, because he gives them a reason to trust him. This trust leads to giving him a Padawan and it ultimately lead to the kinds of missions such as rescuing Palpatine. The trust is eroding in Anakin because he displayed a growing arrogance and an emotional outburst. Yoda also tells Anakin what to do with his fear of losing someone, because he is not the first Jedi to feel such emotion. He just trusts that the boy will listen and learn before it is too late. Not unlike with Luke. Remember, they task Luke with facing his father, knowing full well that he has attachment issues that he has not mastered and is still prone towards falling.

 

Not according to Lucas. Not according to Yoda who refused him the standard youngling training, including dealing with separation. He was instead made an instant Padawan to a newly knighted Jedi, who hadn't even faced "the trials" according to the council. Because he was assumed to be the chosen one and corners were cut.

And you are trying to shift over to training himself to be a ghost. That's clearly not what I'm talking about.

His first introduction to Yoda. Yoda immediately sense his fear of losing his mother.

First scenes in Attack Of The Clones Anakin admits to Obi Wan that he is fearful, as Obi Wan can sense, and he can't sleep because of his feelings about his mother. It's established as a chronic issue.

Revenge Of The Sith - Anakin goes and tells Yoda that he has deep feelings of fear regarding premonitions similar to those he had before his mother died. Before that, Dooku remarked on the great anger and hatred that he is controlling and not using against him. Clearly controlling those feelings does not conceal that one has them then.

At not point in and around these way-points is there any indication hat he's mastered concealing his feelings to the point hat his peers remark that he must have overcome the them if they are no longer so easily detectable.

Plus. Thoughts are not the same as feelings. Nobody ever said that the Jedi should detect thoughts easily. They can detect inner feelings about things and interpret what someone is thinking about in context. Except for in a mind probe situation, which requires a considerable metal and physical concentration. Like an arm wrestle. It's not just something that happens.

The only times that feelings cannot be inferred between Jedi and Jedi, or Jedi and Sith and Jedi and potential Sith is whenever the plot cannot proceed without it happening. No logic applies or is even alluded to which subverts the numerous instances of feelings being apparent to other force users

Just plain wrong. Luke's detection of the dark side within the cave is immediately used to illustrate Yoda's point. This was the whole point of that scene and the sequence in which it was written.

If what you are saying is correct. And since Palpatine has already spread his evil all over the senate and Coruscant, (and if you believe that stuff about a Sith shrine is underneath the temple, by god!) then Yoda should not be able to sense that Anakin has fear or anger in him at all. The conditions are already there which supposedly dictate Yoda and the council's ineffectiveness. But the plot does not require Yoda to be insensible regarding Anakin yet so....

Because they are supposedly hopeless at sensing the dark side, because the dark side clouds everything, yet they continue as if they do not have a problem with anything except the Separatists.

Make your mind up. Is the Jedi's ability to perceive feelings clouded by individual safeguards or the dark side in general. This is just catch-22 rubbish. No disrespect.

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That's fine fore people that don't mind plot holes if external material (other than piror or later Episode in the saga) fills it in. But it's not in the films, so the films don't make sense if that's what's required.

 

We don't know if Anakin took any trials or not. The trials vary for Jedi to Jedi. A mission that he underwent shortly after the Battle of Geonosis, resulted in his becoming a Jedi. Just as Obi-wan's victory over Maul resulted in his becoming a Jedi and Luke defeating Vader was his. Yoda didn't exactly refuse to train Anakin, since Obi-wan chose to fulfill the promise of training him. Yoda trains many of the Jedi, but that isn't always something that happens since Yoda cannot be everywhere.

No Jedi training. He doesn't even know until then that they can sense his feelings.

Obi-wan senses Anakin is nervous, not afraid. And that is due to his not trying to guard his thoughts and feelings. Obi-wan says that he can tell that Anakin is tired and says that he doesn't sleep well. Obi-wan then asks if it is the recurring dreams about his mother. He never says that he cannot sense his feelings in that moment.

But Yoda doesn't sense that it is around Padme. And he has to tell him, not that he can sense it himself. He doesn't even sense that Anakin is very obsessive about this.

When one loses control of his feelings, then yes. When Anakin is calm and more centered, he can hide his thoughts and feelings. He just provoked a response out of Anakin why nearly killing Obi-wan.

Yet, they do not know the depths of his feelings and thoughts.

No, it's not wrong. Yoda's point was in regards to Luke asking how he will know what is good and bad with the Force. Luke then starts to ask why he cannot use the dark side to empower himself and Yoda cuts him off. Afterwards, Luke realizes that he can sense it in the tree cave and this is his test to understand why he should not use it.

And yes, the Jedi Temple being built on top of and old Sith Shrine is canon. It was an idea that stretched back to "Dark Empire" in the old EU, where it was stated that there was ancient Sith writing in the lower levels of Corsucant. Later in "Enemy Lines", it was specifically states that the Temple was built on a nexus of dark side energy, similar to the tree cave. The novel "Tarkin" retained that idea and the notion that all that dark side energy had a slow, but subtle influence on the Jedi. Mostly that it helped to diminish their abilities.

As Lucas said, the dark side is like a thick fog. They can sense it, but they cannot see clearly through it. Yoda can sense some of Anakin's turmoil, but not all of it.

The Jedi have made the wrong conclusion about the Sith and the Separatist threat. That is due to arrogance in thinking that the Sith wouldn't change tactics this time and play the long game politically. Not when they have always followed the same patterns. The Jedi know that their powers are diminishing, but they expect the attack from without. Not from within.

It's all things. There is no one cause.

1. Nute and Rune fear Sidious and that is the fear that Qui-gon senses, but he doesn't know why he senses that fear. Hence it is an unusual amount of fear. When he and Obi-wan see the large number of Battle Droids, they believe it is because of the planned invasion. But as time passes, Qui-gon suspects that something else is behind their actions and behind their fear. Maul's attack and Anakin's origins cement that for him.

2. The Jedi cannot sense the Sith's return, which is due to the Force starting to go out of balance and diminishing the Jedi's ability to use their powers to their fullest.

3. They cannot sense that Palpatine and Dooku are evil, because they've buried their feelings and thoughts. Dooku is only sensed by Yoda once he has stopped hiding himself. Mace can sense the dark side surrounds Palpatine, but has no idea as to why. To him, it is that Palpatine seems to be corrupt and that he needs to be dealt with.

That has nothing to do with the EU, but just plain common sense. The Jedi wouldn't have kept him around, Chosen One status or not, if they knew what he had done. They wouldn't have tried to kill him, if they still believed that he was going to destroy the Sith after joining them. Anakin flat out tells us in AOTC that they can hide their marriage from the Jedi. That means that it is possible to hide these actions, these feelings and thoughts and the Council be none the wiser.