CT There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side? - The End

That's a bit different - lots of sources, not just Pablo or Filoni, state that stormtroopers are now recruits - though there are still a few surviving clone stormtroopers, so merchandise is not technically incorrect.

 

More like they can't still decide. The problem with group decisions is that nobody totally agrees with each other and will still go on and operate under their view of how things should be. The six original films are always going to be more accurate than the current "nufanon" is. Back in 2005, Pablo did state stormtroopers are clones so he is a flip flopper which makes his statements all the more dubious. Also Him and Filoni disagree on who created the clone brain chips in TCW, Filoni states it is his idea to make Sids plan vulnerable as he thought it was too unstoppable in the films and needed to be fixed. While Pablio claims the brain chips are Lucas's idea, not Filoni's. There is clearly disagreement going on in the story group.

Filoni is clearly going away from the films and is trying to reinstate much of the old EU into the Nufanon. He is also betraying how he is a bigger fan of the OT than the PT. Afterall, he once said that he used TCW to fix Lucas ******ups in the PT, (yes he really did use *****ups), which is a really conceded opinion of his. Ever since TPM was made, Anakin was always the chosen one. But as Shimi pointed out in TPM, fate layed a path out for Anakin, but it is still up to him to chose to flow it or not. He follows the chosen path for awhile, then in ROTS he decides to step off that path and become Vader. By the end of ROTJ, Anakin steps back onto the chosen path and fulfills the prophesy. The films make it clear that Obi's and Yoda's plan is to train Luke or Leia to defeat Vader and Palps as they do not have the ability to do so.

Overall, I found the posted clip too be pretty bad, a nice stereotype of how weak aftermarket spinoff material often is and how it often undermines the films rather than expand on them. A way for outside writers to alter the films to the way they want them to be, including Filoni. It also shows how the nufanon is trying to revert things back to pre PT days. Also Filoni is a self admitted raging EU fan, who saw Lucas as a bumbling creator since he did not fully understand the EU and had to be helped by interjecting as much of the EU into TCW as he could, and he still is doing that with Rebels. Frankly IMHO, I find Rebels to be the Star Wars equivalent to this: NSFW: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/poohs-adventures-of-autism.3646/

 

To me it's clear that after the events of Episode 3, Obi Wan's personal beliefs are that they (The Jedi) were wrong about Anakin because Anakin didn't do what was foretold the Chosen One should do. Because of what Anakin did in E3, Obi Wan believes that Anakin was not the Chosen One, and that it is now Luke.

This doesn't mean that Luke is actually the chosen one, just that because of Obi Wan's own personal experiences he has formed a different belief. So it fits with the OT where Obi Wan still wants Luke to face and kill his own Father, because as Obi Wan believes Luke is the Chosen One, that this is what he must do, kill the Sith, which one just so happens to be his Dad.

In the end, just as Lucas says, Anakin still is the Chosen One, as it is he that kills himself and the Emperor...He destroys the Sith.

 

The problem is not Obi-Wan ceasing to believe that Anakin is the chosen one. The problem is not that he believes Luke is his only hope. The problem is that he believes that someone not conceived by midi-chlorians (Luke) is the Chosen One. That's an oxymoron. You can't believe in the Chosen One by ignoring one of the conditions of the Chosen One to begin with.

 

Not really, people ignore things to fit in their own belief systems all the time. Also there's this:



With Obi Wan, he could be choosing to believe in what Yoda says, and that the Prophecy or at least some parts were misread, and that he now believes it is the Son that is the Chosen One and not the Father.

In the end, it doesn't matter because clearly it is Anakin that fulfills the Prophecy...

 

There's nothing indicating that. They speak that the prophecy could have been misread regarding Anakin being the Chosen One (which is what Obi-Wan questioned). There's no guarantee that he is, but at least he was conceived by midi-chlorians, a condition established in the prophecy itself.

It matters because Obi-Wan is contradicting himself by believing in the prophecy while disregarding that same prophecy.

 

Except that they're not even sure how much of it is true, which would include the Chosen One being born of Midichlorians. All they believe to be certain is that the Chosen One will destroy the Sith and bring balance. It could state that a Jedi who is incredibly strong with the Force, is the Chosen One and Qui-gon believes it to be Anakin because his Midichlorian count is so high due to not having a father and thus being conceived by them.

 

Huh? Are you serious?

If Yoda is admitting that the Prophecy can be misread, than he is admitting that the any part can be misread, not just that part of the Prophecy that they are talking about at that moment. The Chosen One being conceived by the Midichlorians is part of the Prophecy, so as per Yoda telling Mace and Obi Wan there is always that possibility that the Prophecy was misread. Whether you or I believe that or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that it has been put in Obi Wan's head as a possibility moving forward.

No, it doesn't matter because in the end, the Prophecy was right, and Obi Wan was wrong.

From what I see in this situation, Obi Wan has come to see and understand the Prophecy differently than others because of what he experienced. He sees part of it as being wrong and has convinced himself someone else is teh Chosen One because of his experiences on Mustafar. He doesn't have the benefit that we do of knowing what is going to transpire when Luke meets Vader. Obi Wan can only shape his beliefs on what he knows, what he has experienced. I mean if you can't understand that, that his experiences and what Yoda said has caused him to step back and rethink what he believes the Prophecy is, I really don't know what else to tell you... If you aren't open to the fact that peoples experiences change who they are and what they choose to believe or not believe in.. well than you will never accept this answer or any answer outside of that Obi Wan is contradicting himself.

It is Yoda that tells him the Prophecy could have been misread, and just hours later the man he thought was the Chosen One does the complete opposite of what the Prophecy says he will do. Your stance kind of conveniently ignores the effect this would have on Obi Wan and what his (not mine, not yours, not any one else) view on the prophecy going forward would be. He personally saw everything the prophecy stated, literally go up in smoke! And you want to act like he should still believe in it the same way he did before?

 

"I believe he was conceived by the midi-chlorians." -Qui.Gon Jinn

"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force." - Mace Windu

Wether the prophecy is true or not is a matter of belief, yes. You either believe in it or you don't. If you do, you don't get to cherry pick the content though. Otherwise the whole point of it being a prophecy is lost. If you believe the prophecy to be true, then you are believing that someone created by midi-chlorians will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. That's the prophecy. Not that someone will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. That's not what was foretold.

 

Maybe it was couched in flowery metaphor, with "conceived by midi-chlorians" being a later interpretation of it, by Jedi scholars.

Twistable prophesies are a common trope:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProphecyTwist

The theory is that because the prophesy is so old, we don't know exactly what was foretold, only modern interpretations of it.

 

I remember a fan-fic where Luke and Leia travelled back in time to ROTS and Yoda (I believe was told or found out about the relationship) and mentioned that there was a part of the prophecy that the Jedi ignored because it mentioned a relationship and or kids and as we know, the Jedi did not do those.

 

It's may not even be a matter of that.. Something that I explained that I stated in a thread in the Prequels section,, All a prophecy is, is a foretelling of a future event. That's it. It seems obvious that at some point, someone with the ability to use the Force (Jedi or not), saw the future and foretold of the Prophecy Of The Chosen One. We know from the movies that those that can use the Force to see the future, don't always get a full or clear picture. Anakin had a Prophecy of Padme dying in child birth. Yet, what he doesn't see is that he and his actions are what put her in that situation.

So when Yoda says the Prophecy could have been misread, it's entirely reasonable that once Obi Wan goes through what he did on Mustafar, he now believes that the specific part of the Prophecy that points to Anakin being the Chosen One is wrong and was misread (as per Yoda putting the possibility in his head) because of Anakin's actions. He may still believe the rest of the Prophecy to be true. His understanding of the prophecy has changed.

No one can stop him from believing that, there are no Prophecy police, there is no big book of laws on Prophecies that states people can't cherry pick what they want.


Slicer87

I am hoping that this isn't another contradiction of Lucas's intent. I've already stopped taking anything that Pablo Hidalgo says seriously.

 

Or maybe (shocking) he said that because at that time, Lucas HIMSELF actually DID think that Revenge of the Sith was going to be the last Star Wars movie ever and changed his mind on the matter LATER!

I don´t know about you but I for once can´t read people´s minds and can´t possibly know what Lucas actually thought or didn´t.

 

We do know what was foretold, that's why and how we know it was fulfilled. What the characters don't know (and the prophecy doesn't tell) is who's the Chosen One. They believe it's Anakin, but they could be wrong. What isn't up to debate is how the chosen one was conceived and what he's destined to do. That's what's the characters tell us, the audience, in the dialogue. That he's conceived by midi-chlorians, will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. If you put one of the premises in question, then you question the whole thing. If you question the whole thing, there's no chosen one to talk of.

 

Which is what happens in ROTS and carries into "The Clone Wars" and"Rebels". They question if the prophecy was misread or not. Given that the Chosen One turns into a Sith, then the prophecy was wrong. But then he had two children, which then raises the question of whether they might be, if it was misread. You can question the whole thing and still have a belief in the Chosen One prophecy, but think that it was off.

 

Cool, yeah, we're basically in agreement. Nothing I typed contradicted that Lucas changed his mind. I said he was spit-balling, meaning he was making statements that he didn't really have to commit to.

 

That's my feeling with many of the faces of SW as of late. It's hard to take their answers because I feel, they lack a certain key understanding.

 

With George, I don't think any idea was ever firmly locked down if he felt a better idea existed.

For better or worse, he didn't like the idea of Han shooting first, so he changed it, because he thought it was too cold. With the stormtroopers being clones, apparently back in the 70s there was some kind of mention of them being clones in a magazine or something. I've seen people mention it and post images of it, but don't recall the source. Then in the EU, they were largely conscripts until AOTC, which heavily implied the clones would go on to become stormtroopers. In the AOTC commentary, George even mentions that Jango hitting his head was meant to be a humorous nod to the stormtrooper that later hits his head in ANH.

George had done an interview with MTV about ROTS in 2005

here

In which when asked if the stormtroopers are clones, George says yes. But then when questioned on why they sound different, he then backtracks and explains that there are also clones of other templates besides Jango clones, as well as conscripts mixed in.

Then when Rebels rolled around, Pablo had said that by this time the clones were replaced with conscripts because the clones proved too independent, and he suggested this idea originated with George as a commentary that blind patriots have less individuality than clones and could be more easily controlled. That doesn't really make sense to me, since the clones were shown to be conditioned to be obsessed with serving the Republic, but for better or worse George wanted to have this point be that the clones were too independent compared to those getting swept up in patriotic fervor.

In ROTS, there was originally a scene between Yoda and Qui-Gon's spirit, where it's revealed that the Sith will never attain the power over death, because love and compassion are the key. Then in the Mortis arc of TCW, George had given Dave the instruction to include a couple of Sith spirits that would serve as the big bad guys that corrupted Son to the Dark Side. But then he decided against that idea again.

He wasn't above changing his mind, sometimes flipping on an issue multiple times, if he came across an idea that was better. My understanding is that Savage was originally supposed to be a stand in for Darth Maul, but then George just decided he wanted to bring Maul himself back.

So when it comes to things like the prophecy or what it said, we have no idea. And I wouldn't have put it past George to even flip on the idea of who the Chosen One was. Early drafts of Star Wars apparently included mention of the "Son of Suns." If the Story Group is treating that as part of this prophecy in universe, it's possible that Obi-Wan took that to mean that Luke is the Chosen One. Obi-Wan did not feel that there was hope for Darth Vader and wanted to train his son to kill him. That Obi-Wan would be so compassionate to Maul, going as far as to say he had no intention of fighting him is something I myself have a problem with, but that's an entirely different discussion.

In ROTS, Yoda insists the Sith must be destroyed. When Obi-Wan shares misgivings about destroying Anakin, Yoda explains that Anakin is already gone. In ROTJ, when Luke has misgivings that he can't kill his own father, Obi-Wan echoes the same sentiment that Yoda once shared with him, that Anakin is gone. All that is left is evil. Now you have Maul who was trained to be evil since childhood. There was never a good man in there. Nothing to be appealed to or reached. Yoda says that the Dark Side will forever dominate one's destiny.

But in Rebels, we have Obi-Wan saying he had no intention of fighting Maul. Attempting to comfort Maul after being pressed to fight and delivering a mortal blow. In TCW we had Asajj abandon the Dark Side and apparently help the Jedi strike at Dooku in Dark Disciple that was based on scripts for an unfinished episode. Something that George likely would have had to have signed off on.

In Season 2 of Rebels, we have Yoda talking about how the Jedi gave into fear during TCW and that the Dark Side spread



It's retroactively painted as though the Jedi were doing this terrible thing by fighting, when George never gave me any kind of impression like that with the PT. When the Jedi are rescuing Palpatine, or joking around in the beginning of ROTS, or when Yoda goes to confront Palpatine to try and kill him, George really didn't set a tone that was conducive to making me think the Jedi were being consumed by the Dark Side. They were outplayed by Palpatine, sure. But I seem to recall people in the audience cheering when Yoda takes out the two guards. It was this big battle between good and evil for the fate of the Galaxy that Yoda lost. Now it's retroactively being shown that Yoda thinks fighting was a big blunder during TCW, and seems confused as to how to win.

Then in ESB and ROTJ, which come after Rebels chronologically, we have Yoda right back to telling Luke he must confront Vader and that Vader will be forever consumed by the Dark Side. He seems all on board with the belief that the Sith need to be destroyed. Which is the same belief he had in ROTS. But you got Rebels in the middle awkwardly where he seems to be wavering on the matter of fighting.

It doesn't make the most sense to me, but something tells me that if the story is good, George wouldn't care.

In ESB, we have Luke get destroyed by Vader. He runs off before his training is complete, he gets his butt handed to him, and Vader then drops a traumatic truth on him. Vader then tries to use their relationship to convince Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor.

We move onto ROTJ, and Vader insists he must obey Palpatine, he tells Luke that Palpatine will be his master, and Luke is inexplicably much stronger, despite never finishing his training with Yoda. Yet, on the commentary, George still talks as though what was established in ESB is still firmly in effect. He says that Vader wants Luke to kill Palpatine so that he can rule the Galaxy, and he says that because Luke didn't finish his studies, he has a difficult physical challenge ahead of him in fighting Vader, even though Vader was not shown to be much of a challenge for Luke. There's almost a disconnect on those two points between ESB and ROTJ, and the foreword for the Making of The Return of the Jedi book draws attention to these points too. That Luke's abilities have progressed to the point that he's uncharacteristically sure of himself at the beginning of ROTJ, when last we saw him he was humbled by Vader. Though despite showing us this, George still remarks that Luke isn't prepared to fight Vader due to never finishing his training. And despite having all dialogue in ROTJ pointing to Vader and Palpatine working together, and that Vader concedes that Palpatine will train Luke (where in ESB, he said he'd train Luke), George insists that Vader and Palpatine are still trying to turn on each other.

But in the end of ROTJ we have thiis story where Luke can destroy Vader, but that he must resist the temptation to do so and instead reach out to him with compassion. Had Luke still been weaker than Vader, then that story couldn't have happened. So what we were shown was these emotional climax that wouldn't be possible if Luke were still where he was at the end of ESB. He almost completely walked back on who these characters were at the end of ESB in order to get the climax that he wanted. George seemed very flexible with what the story was/is if it could be made better in his mind.

 

But Lucas never changed his mind on Anakin being the Chosen One. He was consistent with that since 1999 when he first talked about it and all the way up to when he sold his company. He may have been open to other ideas if something came along that felt like a better option, but he wasn't completely against it. As to Obi-wan showing compassion for Maul, how is that a problem? He's let go of the animosity that he felt towards him and doesn't want to create a disturbance in the Force that the Sith can sense. He knows that Maul was used as a puppet and feels bad for him. Lucas even says that a Jedi should feel compassion for their enemies, including the Sith.

It also shows that the Jedi were wrong. That the Sith can be reached. Not all of them, but some can be. Maul showed his weakness with Sidious killed Savage and Ventress started to change because of Ahsoka and later Quinlan Vos. If they can find something to care about other than themselves and their ambitions, the dark side loses his hold on them.

 

I honestly hated how Obi wan handled Anakin yes he was dark at that time, but if he had tried to talk to him maybe tried to help him get better it wouldn't have ended like that not saying its all Obi wan fault.

 

He did try to talk to Anakin. He tried to get him to understand that the man that he was serving was evil and that he himself was now evil. Anakin knew deep down that he was evil, but he also had a lot of anger and hate within him and he couldn't bring himself to listen to Obi-wan. Especially because in his view, Obi-wan had betrayed him by siding with those who would stop his efforts to protect Padme. And worse, turned her against him. But Obi-wan also swore an oath to the Republic and to destroying the Sith.

 

So now Ben is required to see things as you do? Ben can still believe in it, even if he admits to himself that he doesn't understand it completely.

No...ROTJ shows us that the Prophecy wasn't wrong. What it shows us is that the context of the Prophecy was not completely understood. Whoever foresaw the "Chosen One" defeating the Sith didn't understand that the person who did so wasn't a Sith, himself.

I'm reminded of these lines from the Kevin Bacon movie Stir of Echoes:

NEIL: Tom, you're what they used to call a medium. You're like a man in a dark tunnel with a flashlight, but the light only goes on once in a while. When it flickers on, you get a glimpse of something, but not enough of a glimpse to know what it is. Just enough to know it's there.

TOM: What about my son?

NEIL: The ncxt generation. Much better flashlight.

Or that one's own understanding of it is way off.

 

Right, but I'm speaking from Obi-wan and Yoda's point of view.

 

He's required to either believe in the prophecy (and all it entails) or not. Not believing in only parts of it for no reason whatsoever.

No, it shows that the prophecy was right. Someone conceived by midi-chlorians destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force.

?!

Wether he became a Sith or not is irrelevant. Anakin didn't need to become a Sith to be the Chosen One or fulfill the prophecy. He became a Sith and was able to destroy his Sith persona. He destroyed the Sith, as was foretold.

There's nothing ambiguous about someone being conceived by midi-chlorians destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. It is what it is, and people either believe in all that or not. Obi-Wan believing Luke will one day save the galaxy is one thing. To believe he's the chosen one is another. The latter implies assuming the prophecy is true. And the prophecy states that the chosen one is conceived by midi-chlorians. Luke wasn't.