Theroy on Anakin and bringing balance to the force

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Rebel_Loyaltist, Jan 24, 2003.

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  1. Rebel_Loyaltist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2001
    star 2
    I just thought of this as I was reading another thread. But anyone way here it is.

    Anakin is the Chosen One. Well all know that. And what is he supposed to do? Bring balance to the Force. Anakin also has high respect for Palpatine. But when he is with Padme on Naboo he express on how the Republic should work. Padme says what he is saying sounds awful like a dictatorship. Now with will fast foward to sometime in episode 3. We know that Anakin has to be influenced by Palpatine some how and eventually accepts the teachings of the Sith Order. What's one of the rules of the Sith Order? Only two at a time. But one thing is still present. He is the Chosen One and must balance the Force. So with the Sith teachings this becomes balance the Force by killing all the Jedi and having on two Siths. But this doesn't seem enough for Vader. Fast forward about twenty four years where he is fighting his son. He tells Luke that they can bring order to the galaxy by him and his son ruling and eliminating the Emperor. So his plan is not complete. But then of course Luke rejects the offer, fights Luke again, loses, kills Palpitine, redems himself, dies, brings balance to the Force so on and so forth. :)

    So what do you all think.
  2. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    I do agree with you that in order to bring balance, all of the jedi (regretfully) had to be killed (except yoda, but hes dead anyway). Then all the sith had to be killed. Leaving Luke, thats it, and you have balance.

    I think vader was just being greedy on bespin anyway. He was still in the grip of the darkside.
  3. merlin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 1999
    star 4
    [color=663300]I don't think we'll ever know what "bringing balance to the force" is really supposed to mean, but I don't think it has to do with the Jed, the Sith, or the number of each on either side. I think it only has to do with the force itself, some crazy whacked up thing George Lucas cooked up some night when he was bored in his dorm room and should have been out picking up girls and having a life. ;) :p[/color]
  4. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    There was an awesome theory I heard ages ago about this.

    Instead of having balance by numbers, ie Jedi and Sith we have balance of Force itself. Many of the Jedi follow the unifying Force, except Qui-Gonn. Fast Forward to when Luke is being trained by Yoda he starts teaching Luke about the Living Force. Yoda previously was a follower of the Unifying Force. It seems that the Jedi have forgotten about what the Force actually is. The Living Force is about the here and now and doing the will of the Force, its also about life and how it makes it grow. When you follow the Unifying Force you forget about the will of the Force. When Vader dies Luke is the last of the Jedi and he has been trained to use the Living Force and Unifying Force, bringing the way the force is used and followed back into balance.
  5. Adchyrch Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2002
    I have to agree that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by killing the Emperor because if you stick strictly to -Just- the movies the darkside of the force was gone when Vader killed Palpatine thus destroying evil in the galaxy. Lucas himself said something to this effect in an interview I dont remember if it was in the Original Trilogy where they had that Episode II stuff or in the Episode I DVD. Now, I think Palpatine was the ultimate evil I think that through the SW Universe there was no Sith Stronger than Palpatine. But the thing is, We only know there is a prophecy but we dont know what that prophecy says.... We just know there is a convergence in the force and that they think the chosen one brings the force into balance. So overall I think its kinda vague.
  6. zeaband Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2003
    star 1
    I think Luke ultimitly is the one who destroys Palpy becuase Luke made Vader into Anikan again, and only "the one" could do that.
  7. merlin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 1999
    star 4
    [color=663300]Lucas has made it pretty clear that Anakin is the one who brings balance to the Force. There's no arguing that.

    As seen here in this article.

    Also, follow This Link to a TF.N Article on related topics. Here's the part about Anakin and the Balance of the Force:

    (interview with George Lucas)

    CUT: In Episode 1 Qui-Gon Jinn said Anakin would bring balance to The Force. What does that mean?

    GL: Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this.

    CUT: I see....

    GL: In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!

    CUT: When I think that Anakin will become Darth Vader, I feel it is better he not be trained as a Jedi - has Qui-Gon Jinn made a mistake?

    GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.
    [/color]
  8. zeaband Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2003
    star 1
    Oh, i dont listen to interviews or anyhting beside the movies and trailer in theaters. So looks like I'm wrong...
  9. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    I, at one point, thought the same way. I felt that things were akin to a scale and that if there are 2 Jedi then there should be 2 Sith. Balanced. I've realized this is only partially correct. I also think that what's occuring in the SW movies is an echo of what happened 1000 years prior when the Sith rose against the Jedi. But, to stay more on topic, I'll just say how I think the balance is brought about.

    I said partially correct because there is a balance between 2 things. But it's not between Jedi or Sith. It's not between Dark or Light. It's between the Unifying Force and the Living Force. The terms Sith and Jedi are secondary. If one follows the Unifying Force completely, he is, in fact, knowing of how events can occur and can become manipulative of others just as Sidious is. Most so-called Jedi are closer to the Unifying Force but also consider the Living Force. Qui-Gon is very important in illustrating that his views, which are closer to the Living Force, are shunned by the Council and, most likely, other Jedi. This indicates that the Jedi we see would rather be closer to the Unifying Force than the Living Force. Vader only ends up wiping out these 'so-called' Jedi and the galaxy is actually better off without them.



    Thats a link to a thread about the Force. It's old but maybe new thoughts could be shared.

    Isurus the White
  10. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    The Jedi follow the Will of the Force, and don't disturb it's flows.

    The Sith (or Dark Siders, to be specific) use the Dark Side of the Force, will happiily manipulate it for their own ends, and in doing so disturb it's balance.

    The Sith have to be wiped out to restore balance.

    IMHO.

    :)
  11. Rebel_Loyaltist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2001
    star 2
    Guess I didn't explain it right. The idea of all the Jedi being wiped comes from a Sith prospective of balancing the force. Since Palpatine warped Anakin's mind from just (Light Side)balancing the force to his Sith ideals that all the jedi had to die to balance the force is what I'm saying. But a little bit of the light side prospective is still with him when he tells look they can kill the emperor and bring order to the galaxy. :)
  12. DarthWeenie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    I hate, HATE explaining the balance of the force thing to people. Anakin killed the emperor. Thus bringing balance. Thank you Merlin for posting that article so I didnt have to.

    Now,
    "The idea of all the Jedi being wiped comes from a Sith prospective of balancing the force.

    There is no evidence of either Anakin or Palpatine knowing ANYTHING about the prophecy, or that Anakin is the chosen one.

    But, if BOTH Palp AND Anakin DO know, this could be a catalyst to turning Anakin. Palp could make his own explation to what the "balance" would mean (destroying the jedi), then convince Anakin that thats what this means, then encourage him to fulfill his destiny.

    Makes sense. Possible.

    You might be onto something.

    "But a little bit of the light side prospective is still with him when he tells look they can kill the emperor and bring order to the galaxy.

    I have to say, youre a little off here. Vader's idea of "order to the galaxy" is just he himself being emperor. He made it sound appealing though to Luke, to tell him what he wanted to hear. You know how Dooku tells Obi about "destroy[ing] the Sith?" Same thing.

    Telling them what they need to hear to join the darkside. Seduction.

    Vader was still his same old evil self in that scene, he was just misleading Luke.

    Im still with you on the Palp telling Anakin his own version of the fulfillment of the prophecy though.
  13. jedimelis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2002
    star 2
    Bump.

    Here's my thought.... The Balance to the Force is referring to the proper usage of the force. I believe that the representation of the Jedi Order in the PT was done purposefully.... the Order was characterized as very hierarchical and rigid.... Now it is my belief that if the Jedi Order had not been so "ordered" and un-bending, Anakin may not have had a reason to rebel... Now it is obvious that ridding the galaxy of the Emperor certainly got rid of the unbalanced presence of evil in the galaxy, but it was necessary to get rid of the Jedi order which was not at its best... now.... having goten rid of teh Emperor and the old Jedi Order the only true person left is Luke Skywalker who has basically gotten a crash-course training in being a Jedi.... he is not bound to the no-attachment's Jedi Rule... etc and starts the new Jedi Order. Also the "balance" issue can be interpreted as Anakin having experienced both sides of the force... and in the end starts the familial Jedi legacy by allowing his son to live.....

    make any sense????
  14. Darth-Dispicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 4
    Finaly somebody is saying what I think. Thank you Jedimelis. The only way that the force would be balance is to change the use of the force. Balance has nothing to do with how many of sith or jedi get killed, it is much deeper than that. The force is like a yin-yang, It needs both the darkness and the light to be complete. The Jedi council in EP 2 adhere only to the light side of the force (that is the only reason the sith exist, to counterbalance them) and completely disregard the darkside. Once palpatine is destroyed, luke is the only Jedi left and he is very centered (by that I mean that he has dark and light tendancies). If all Jedi to come have the same understanding of the complete force, then you have balance.
  15. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Balance to the Force is about stability, not numbers. The Sith create the instability. Their elimination brings stability back.

    If balance really had to do with eliminating the Jedi, Anakin could not be the Chosen One. Don't forget, he's only Palpatine's apprentice, and Palpatine is the mastermind behind bringing the Sith to power. He has had two apprentices before Anakin, and lots of help from the Senate and corporations within the Republic. He's practically Emperor already, and at the time of AOTC has received no help from Anakin. Now why would the Chosen One be someone who gave him some last minute aid, and not one of the others who's been aiding his rise for years? For that matter, why should the Chosen One be the apprentice of the man to blame for all of this? If balance involved elevating the Sith to a position of power and eliminating the Jedi, the designation of Chosen One belongs to that man who planned it all: Palpatine himself. But we know he's not the Chosen One, so it must be defined by something Anakin did that nobody else could. Killing Palpatine.
  16. ZakRoyen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    > GL: "Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. "

    I've never quite understood what that meant.
    Does Lucas imply that the Sith are 'mixing good and evil'?
    Why do we need balance between good and evil? Wouldn't it be better to have no evil at all?

    Can anybody help me with that?
    Thank you.
  17. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Why do we need balance between good and evil? Wouldn't it be better to have no evil at all?

    The biggest problem is if there is no evil, there's no way to define good. Alternatively, you could say that no matter what the spectrum of human actions looks like, one-half of it will always be designated "evil."

    There are quite a number of ways to define evil, though, and the Star Wars films never quite make it clear which definition is being used.
  18. ZakRoyen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    thanks mara, that helps.

    what do you think the balance really means, then? in what sense is sidious disrupting it? is he 'mixing' good and evil?
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin brings balance to the Force.

    How? He destroys Palpatine and turns back from the Dark Side to the Light Side.

    Thus, no more Sith, no more Dark Side, therefore, the Force is balanced.

    I thought that Lucas compared the Sith to a "cancer" affecting the Force (and thereby the galaxy) - once the "cancer" is removed, the Force is balanced.

    Why do the Sith cause an imbalance? Someone (Obi-Ewan?) said it earlier - instead of following the Will of the Force, letting the Force flow through them, using it for knowledge and defense, the Sith use the Force to achieve their own ends.

    I don't like this talk of balancing the good and the evil in the same person (i.e. Anakin).

    "I can still save you."

    "You already have, Luke."

    "fear causes anger. anger causes hate. hate causes suffering." - this is the way of the Dark Side - manipulating people for your own ends and increasing your own power.

    Why was the rule set in place that there can be only 2 Sith? Because otherwise they wouldn't accomplish ANYTHING. They'd all be fighting to see who gets to be "leader", or more appropriately, "dictator" of the Sith.

    The only way a Sith can convince another Sith to follow him/her is to have more power.

    With 2 Sith, you have a master and an apprentice. But the apprentice is constantly attempting to become more powerful - because that's all there is once you start down the Dark Path - trying to get more power.

    That is why we get Vader's "join with me and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son" and Dooku's "join with me and together we can destroy the Sith!"

    Both Vader and Dooku see Luke and Obi-Wan respectively as pawns - means to an end.

    It's probably true that the Order had to fall in order (har) for the Force to be balanced once again.

    Hmm....here's a theory for you (off the top of my head): one reason why the Sith waited until the Order/Republic were corrupt and complacent was, if you look at it in terms of destiny, because it would be far easier to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

    (1) Anakin could not have defeated Palpatine as a Jedi - he probably wouldn't have been able to come close.

    (2) Only someone as powerful as Anakin could kill Palpatine.

    Therefore, Anakin HAD to turn in order for balance to be restored - the Jedi and/or the Will of the Force had to hope that, at some point, Anakin could turn back from the DS and kill Palpatine.
  20. ZakRoyen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    "I don't like this talk of balancing the good and the evil in the same person (i.e. Anakin). "

    Neither do I. But it seems like it's what Lucas's "balance" is all about.
  21. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>I've never quite understood what that meant.
    Does Lucas imply that the Sith are 'mixing good and evil'?
    Why do we need balance between good and evil? Wouldn't it be better to have no evil at all?


    Well, think about Qui Gon. When he bets with Watto, he's doing something bad; gambling. But he's betting to free Anakin, which is good. But he uses the Force to cheat Watto, which is bad. But he's doing it so that Anakin can become a Jedi, which is good. But Anakin being trained is what gives him access to the power of the Dark Side, which is bad. etc. etc.

    It's the little bit of "bad" in Qui Gon, in bending the rules, in cheating etc. that leads to the existence of Darth Vader.

    On the other hand, obeying the Jedi Rules without question isn't necessarily "good" either- if the Jedi Rules happily allow the Jedi to take babies away from their children, if they forbid love because there's a danger that it could hurt people etc. then they aren't a benchmark of what is truly good.

    In terms of morality, people have to be able to obey the rules when it's the right thing to do, and challenge them when it's the right thing to do. (I highly recommed Robert M Pirsig's books, because the second one is pretty much about this idea, and I'm certain that it was an influence on TPM in some way. But that's for another thread, I guess...)

    In terms of the Force, the "bad" (ie. the Dark Side) has spread it's influence in AOTC, and even more so by the time of the original trilogy. It's my guess that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side for it's power, but with intentions to use that power to do good, taking the Qui Gon "mixed morality" idea a step further; note that in AOTC we see that he is Dark Side and Evil, but we know nothing about his intentions or motivations for leaving the Jedi and joining the Sith, other than what we can guess from Qui Gon's character, who doesn't obey the Jedi Code when he doesn't think it's the right thing to do.

    The right thing at one time might not be the right thing at another. It's up to the individual to do what he feels is right.
  22. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    agreed, but one would hope that the ends do not justify the means.

    I think the Council was at one extreme, and Qui-Gon at the other. I think there has to be a balance somewhere inbetween.
  23. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    You don't need evil to define good. The Jedi predate the Sith considerably. The Sith aren't necessary, and more to the point, after ROTJ, they are extinct, whereas Luke, a Jedi, is very much alive.
    That philosophical concept of evil being necessary is not a part of Star Wars.

    Anakin certainly needs to be emotionally stable to do the job for which he was created. But the prophecy refers to him destroying the Sith.
  24. ZakRoyen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    I guess George Lucas's explanation was just not very clear.
  25. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    George not being clear and/or contradicting himself? ~shocked~ ;)

    Well, it appears that Obi-Ewan and myself are on the same page...anyone else?
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