Clone Wars Things in Star Wars That TCW Fixed Accidentally

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Dark Lord Tarkas, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Thing is, the Jedi aren't high school teachers, and do have experience with strong emotion and conflict and the full series of the 'human' experience. These are being that are trained as diplomats, peacekeepers, mindhealers, healers, scholars, and a dozen other skills, while also travelling regularly to thousands of different worlds with different races, cultures, and highly emotional beings, and mediating in their problems. Their range of experience refutes that their inability to adapt to Anakin and others like him. It comes down to the arrogant refusal to acknowledge that any way but the firm adherence to a single way for everyone is simply flawed, more so in some cases than others. And that's before you even get into the moral issue of taking children from their parents.

    They are fallible, so what may seem like condemnation isn't really that. They did what they thought was best. And even if it was only because the Sith kept a low profile for thousands of years, they kept the peace for that long. Far longer than the KOTOR, who got decimated by Malak and then devoured/killed by the Sith Lords, and the NJO which ends at Ossus, as a proper Order, after around a 170 or so years.

    At the end we are perhaps getting a little too deep into something that was written as it was to reach a point (ROTS and the OT) rather than building logically. The series of events is built up 'if so-and-so does this, then we can get to this location' rather than 'what will happen of so-and-so does this.' The issue of having sequels occur before prequels.
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  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I didn't see any "arrogant refusal" to acknowledge any other method of teaching, and I think this is where our disagreement lies. They may have a lot of experience mediating and making peace, but that's not what they were trying to do with Anakin, they were trying to raise him and teach him, and they did not have experience raising and teaching someone with his personality and his issues. If they had gone to Tatooine to mediate a dispute between Anakin and Watto, I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have been successful, but that is a very, very different skill set than training Anakin to be a Jedi Knight.

    I go back and forth about the wisdom or necessity of their taking children from their parents, but it's a non-issue here. Whether that was morally acceptable or not, it's what had been done for a thousand years, and those children--the ones without prior parental bonds--were the ones that the Jedi knew how to raise and train.

    And as much as I love Anakin, he really was not a good fit for the Order, nor do I think he wanted to be. He was the type of person who wanted to make decisions based on his emotions, and I get that some people are that way, but it's a very bad idea for a Jedi, even more so than it is for the rest of us. If he had been able to let go of the idea that he alone knew what was right for him, and he had not had Palpatine blowing sunshine up his ass, he might have made it.

    All that said, I also think Anakin had a better chance of staying on the Light Side if Shmi Skywalker had lived, but I'm not going to blame the Jedi for killing her either. That was the fault of the Tusken Raiders and the Tusken Raiders alone. And if we're going by the EU, the Jedi actually bought her freedom--Qui-Gon sent her a Tobal lens, which she gave to Cliegg and Owen to sell in order to get the money to buy her from Watto.
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  3. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    I think there has been suggestion that Palpatine or Plagueis, or both of them, in some way engineered the Tusken raid and the capture / torture / rape / murder of Shmi.

    I'm not sure how that would work, and the evidence for it is kinda tenuous, but if it was the case, it would fit right in with the other losses in Anakin's life. Palpatine likely engineered, through his Jedi-dissilusioned stooge Offee and her band of anti-Jedi terrorists, the events that drove Anakin's surrogate little sister from his side. Either directly, by Barriss coming to Palpatine, or indirectly, knowing of Barriss' turn, by sending people her way who would put the right ideas in her head...

    Then later, using his own dark power, he started giving Anakin nightmares of Padme's death. Something Anakin became so terrified of that his desperate acts to try and avert it made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why Padme actually died (it couldn't be childbirth complications, because the med droid explicitly said there was nothing physically wrong with her) is a mystery, but one possibility is that Palpatine Force-drained her in some way from afar.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Aug 18, 2013
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Eh, that's an entirely different debate, but I tend to think that Palpatine was more of a chess player than a puppet master. I don't think he had anything to do with Shmi's death but I do think he used it to his advantage, as he did many events and mindsets; case in point, he didn't cause the Trade Federation to be disgruntled about taxes but he certainly knew how to take advantage of their disgust.

    I think he did engineer the framing of Ahsoka and her trial, knowing that he could take advantage of anti-Jedi sentiment already existent in the public (just as Hitler took advantage of Germans wanting someone to blame for their economic decline after World War I and the Jews were a convenient scapegoat). He knew that if Ahsoka were framed and the Jedi Council felt forced to expel her, Anakin would be angry, and it would add to the resentment he already felt towards them after the Hardeen arc.

    I used to think that Palpatine gave Anakin the visions about Padme, given that he oh-so-conveniently offered him the power to stop death soon afterwards, but I'm not sure Palpatine had that power. As far as Padme's death, I wish I believed that Palpatine killed her from afar because that's far better than "losing the will to live."
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  5. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I like that there's so much discussion in here, but this is all "Things in Star Wars That TCW Fixed" as opposed to "Things in Star Wars That TCW Fixed Accidentally" like the example I gave of Darth Maul being a CIS leader in Battlefront II. I suppose it's a subjective distinction anyway.
  6. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    The Twilight, Ziro the Hutt's ship, that was commandeered by Anakin to take Jabba's son back to tatooine, and was subsequently used by him now and then throughout the clone wars... was a.. spice freighter.

    So what Owen Lars told Luke about his father was true... from a certain point of view.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Aug 18, 2013
  7. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think that was accidental though. :p
  8. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    [face_hypnotized]

    Someone got the point of this thread!!! Hooray!!! [face_dancing]

    Reaches for "dislike" button. :p
    Last edited by Dark Lord Tarkas, Aug 19, 2013
  9. Dinos4Ever Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2013
    star 2
    Here, let me try to explain: think of it like a sandwich. AotC and RotS are the bread, but that doesn't make much of a sandwich, it needs something, it needs meat, cheese, and lettuce to flesh out the sandwich. In RotS, we see Anakin let on to the Council begrudgingly. The Council feel like their hands are tied in the situation, and when Anakin gets the news, he thinks he gets perks to come with it. When he doesn't, we see a Jedi Knight turn into tantrum throwing toddler who stamps their feet and pouts when they don't get their way. What we don't see is what turned a young, overconfident, and rather flamboyant Jedi padawan into this Jedi Knight who's going to throw a tantrum every time he doesn't get his way. RotS hints that Palpatine has been driving a wedge, but that's only the meat, there's also cheese and lettuce to go with it. Ahsoka and TCW is that cheese and lettuce. While it's not mandatory for the sandwich to be decent, it would be muh better with the cheese and lettuce. What we don't see in RotS is what turned a teenage whiner into a cold blooded killer. Ahsoka shows us what happens when good attentions go bad. With Ahsoka, Yoda hopes that she can turn Anakin into a mature Jedi who doesn't rush into everything lightsaber a-swinging, but it backfires in the worse way imaginable. Ahsoka becomes Anakin's closest attachment during the waning years of the Clone Wars, and he starts to skirt the dark side closer than ever before because of Ahsoka. From force choking Poggle, to exceeding his mandate far beyond what he should on multiple occasions, Ahsoka only becomes another Padme for Anakin, and the Council doing nothing for him during her trial shows the unmendable tear that rips between the Council and Anakin that pushes Skywalker closer into Palpatine's thrawl with hopes of sympathy like he did after slaughtering the Sand People, or telling Palpatine about his feelings for Padme. That's what Ahsoka and TCW does for us. It shows rather than offhandedly tells us the rifts that had formed between Anakin and the Jedi Council during the Clone Wars.
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    But how did Owen know? Oh, hey–they crashed the Twilight on Tatooine, right? But it's magically un-crashed in Season 1. So...what if Anakin gave Owen a call and asked for his help in fixing the Twilight?
  11. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    @Dinos4Ever: Ahsoka's like the cheese in the sandwich that you ordered without cheese. :b

    But seriously, I don't really see what's missing story-wise with Anakin and the Council. It's predictable that he was outraged. It's nothing new, he's Anakin. He was already rejected by them as a kid, and nothing suggests he was angry at them in RotS before they denied him as a master.. And it seems odd that when he's talking about how unfair the Council is being, what's happening to the Jedi, and his past losses, he never brings Ahsoka up. People can read between the lines if they want I guess.. IMO she didn't really hurt Anakin's story, but she wasn't a necessary link in it either. She was a filler character.
    Last edited by Togruta, Sep 16, 2013
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  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree. Who the hell put this provolone on my salami sandwich?

    It never occurred to me that we were "missing" another loss, another wedge driven between Anakin and the Council, when I watched ROTS. Anakin wasn't exactly the Council's obedient little poster boy in AOTC so I never asked what the hell happened, it just seemed like a normal three-year progress to me.
  13. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Qui-Gon wasn't exactly the Council's obedient little poster boy in TPM, either. There's a lot of space between that and turning every youngling in the temple into cold cuts (a bit of a theme developing here). Getting from A to B may be a natural progression, but Anakin went way past that - he went from A to Z, and then right through to all those weird little characters on your keyboard you get if you press Alt while you're typing, like ƒ, ∂, and ¬.

    That requires a little more explanation than we got from AoTC.
  14. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    ^That's too exaggerated. Anakin's not a perfect poster boy or another Qui-Gon, so why place him at such extremes by saying he went from "A to Z" and beyond? I would think that RotS is that "little more explanation", not TCW. I don't see anything in TCW that's important in connecting dots or leaving a mark, even stuff that I liked. But that's just me.
    Last edited by Togruta, Sep 17, 2013
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  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, the only thing Anakin and Qui-Gon had in common is that they were both willing to tell the Council to go **** themselves if they felt it necessary.

    Only Qui-Gon did it well.
    JediGirl_Angelina and Paparazzo like this.
  16. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I laughed, I cried, I voted this best post on the whole internetz. Nice job, and you don't even sound like a cranky old man like me.

    Exactly. Being a rebellious teenager - a trait most people have in their teenage years, I think - is not at all the logical precursor to killing everyone in your group and joining a rival group for no morally justified reason. Ep. III still had its own story to tell, and the Counci accepting Anakin only as a ruse to spy on Palpatine which Anakin knew to be the case without giving him the rank of master turning him to the dark side alone (even with the other plot with Padme) is a very hard to believe portrayal of that story. Now that I've the Zillo arc, the S4 slaver arc, the Rako Hardeen arc, and the S5 finale arc, for me the saga as whole makes a lot more sense because I can identify with Anakin turning to the dark side a lot more. To me, being able to identify with the reasons Anakin became Darth Vader is central to the saga. I think there are two main points of it, that anyone with good intentions can wind up doing the wrong thing, and that someone who is doing the wrong thing always has the choice to stop and redeem themselves. TCW made the first half of that finally work right and thus the whole thing.
    Darth Valkyrus likes this.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I do think the Hardeen arc added something to Anakin's resentment towards both Obi-Wan and the Council, but I never questioned why he was pissed at the Council in ROTS. As he said several times in AOTC, he felt they were holding him back. Anakin was gullible enough to do anything Palpatine told him but TCW never explained that.

    The other arcs you mentioned added nothing for me, in fact, after the fugitive arc, Anakin being so cozy with Palpatine made even less sense. Palpatine ran the kangaroo court that was ready to convict Ahsoka.
  18. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    He wanted to be Master so he could access the Holocrons and use their knowledge to save Padme from her death, but the Council denied him Masterhood. He was thus pissed at them. That's all there was to it, and the rest was filler.
  19. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    If Anakin said that in the film it would drastically change my opinion on the matter, and I mean that. But he doesn't.

    Being resentful of the elders in your group does not justify genocide. In the S5 finale the Jedi Order has the choice first whether or not to ban Ahsoka without their own investigation. If memory serves, Palpatine announces the verdict, but it wasn't his choice. Anakin has much more reason to be pissed at the Jedi. But even if he had equal reason, which I don't think he does, he'd be more pissed at them regardless. From Anakin's perspective the Jedi Order is the bureaucracy he's frustrated with and Palpatine is the friend he can talk to outside of that, so these resentments and feelings of injustice against the Jedi are mounting while for Palpatine it would be an isolated incident (and all the other times Palpatine is the one on his side against the Jedi - the Hardeen arc being a perfect example).
    Circular Logic likes this.
  20. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    But it was the Council that threw Ahsoka out without so much as a second thought.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think everyone knows my opinion on "the Council vs. Ahsoka" in the fugitive arc. It hasn't changed.
  22. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    Actually, Anakin is just an angry person and that's all there is to it. Reasons are just filler.
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    Anakin Skywalker just being some angry dude before he became Darth Vader is not the way I think of the Star Wars saga. Like I said above, to me it's about anyone being able to make a mistake and anyone being able to redeem themselves once they have. If he was bad the whole time anyway the saga wouldn't have the same story arc.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    He was an angry person; that's not the same as being "bad." I like looking at the reasons why he was so angry but as I said, I don't think TCW did anything to expand on those reasons other than in the Hardeen arc.
  25. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    No, TCW didn't expand on his anger. It made him the hero we wanted in AOTC.