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Clone Wars Things in Star Wars That TCW Fixed Accidentally

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Dark Lord Tarkas, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2011
    I'd probably say it did both. Yeah, there's The Hidden Enemy and Cat & Mouse, but there's also Brain Invaders and Kidnapped.
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Does anyone else think that attitude towards the Jedi was harmed by this series?

    We're all supposed to be appalled by Order 66, right? But from some of the commentary I've seen since the series ended, along the lines of "the Jedi brought their destruction upon themselves," I wonder if people still view Order 66 with the same level of horror.

    The "it's the Jedi's fault" commentary existed before. There has always been a segment of Anakin fans who play the "how do the Jedi suck? Let me count the ways..." game. I once took quite a bit of issue with how Anakin was handled until several people on these boards explained the reasoning behind the old Jedi Order rules, at which point their handling of Anakin made sense, even if Anakin didn't see it that way.

    But it seems as if anti-Jedi sentiment has multiplied exponentially with this series. I don't consider that a good thing.
     
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  3. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    An author writes books after books of unsubtle anti-Jedi propaganda, and the fans violently react to defend the Order. The crew of a tv show meant for kids present the Jedi as good men who make some big mistakes but still have their heart in the right place, and the fans start questioning it. That is great. Absolutely great. I don't see what the problem is.
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I was going to make a comparison to that particular author, who was vilified to the point that she stopped coming to TF.N IIRC.

    "Good men who made mistakes" is exactly how I see the Jedi, but in so many threads since the season 5 finale, they are presented as the devil incarnate.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  5. Togruta

    Togruta Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Maybe someone should make a "Things in Star Wars That TCW Screwed Up.. Even More!" thread?
     
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  6. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The issue is the same problem evident in Troy Denning's work. Whereas Karen Traviss openly and honestly states that she's not particularly a fan of the Jedi for several legitimate reasons, she still writes Jedi as flawed but well-intentioned, in general they're doing-the-best-they-can characters across her collective contributions to Star Wars. Denning and apparently a portion of The Clone Wars' writing team are avowed Jedi fans, but don't consider what it means to write truly heroic characters, and instead believe that because the Jedi are good, their every action is automatically good and requires no further thought on whether what's being done in the name of "Good" is truly moral or simply the expedient choice.

    I've noticed a rise in this attitude, as well, though mostly among more casual fans. People who don't realize that the series' writers have mischaracterized the previously well-handled members of the Jedi Order, essentially sacrificing the credibility of the Council and the Order in an effort to artificially create sympathy for Ahsoka. However, I think most people more familiar with the broader Star Wars universe recognize that the situation being presented is an anomaly rather the rule. Either way, it's still a shame, considering the same plot could have been presented without so recklessly throwing the Jedi under the bus in order to push the audience to root for Ahsoka the underdog.
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Exactly what I was getting at, and exactly how I feel. Thank you. And I'm just hoping people see the situation as an anomaly and not the rule.
     
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  8. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Looking at the Jedi Order as an organization, rather than specific individuals within it as of the "modern" SW era, it was probably harmed more by TOR and some of the other material dealing with that era.

    You have Pultimo's Sith Holocaust, among other things, in there. The Jedi Order was directly a party to that piece of unpleasantness. You also have Revan programming a deadly Jedi killer droid to conduct a campaign of genocide against the Sith species, hunting down and murdering anyone with any discernible Sith blood.

    When you see some of the stuff that the Jedi did, it would almost provoke a feeling that the Revenge of the Sith is something the Jedi had coming. In a karmic sense.
     
  9. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    It seemed to me that especially Ki-Adi-Mundi, after his appearance in Season 2, was written totally wrong here. This is the guy who fought on Geonosis alongside Anakin and Ahsoka, and even kept tally of his kills in the battle. He seemed to be quite friendly with Anakin and Ahsoka. And Yoda's worked with Ahsoka many times before, between her visions in Season 3 and whatnot. And Plo Koon? Oh, goodness, the fact that he even ever considered that Ahsoka might have done it after the connection they shared...the arc was good but it assassinated all three of those Jedi Masters. Obi-Wan was meh, too.
     
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The only Old Republic novel I've read was Fatal Alliance and I haven't read any of the comics or played the games from that era, however, it bothers me that viewers are left with the impression that the Jedi "deserved what they got". Why are Darth Vader and Palpatine even considered villains if this is the case?
     
  11. KenobiSkywalker

    KenobiSkywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    I could see where the general population of the GFFA and Anakin would think the Jedi deserved what they got as they got closer to the events of ROTS. I think that's what TCW was trying to convey, they just did so poorly. I think the Fugitive arc is a good example of that. I still see the Jedi as the good guys that made some mistakes - no one is perfect.
     
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  12. purplerain

    purplerain Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Because they did far more than kill Jedi. Bin Laden gave the Soviet Union what it deserved but is still considered evil because of 9/11.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Mmmmkay. So killing Jedi isn't evil, and they wouldn't have been considered evil if they had only killed Jedi?

    Wow.


    Absolutely. The general public had turned against the Jedi by the end of ROTS, maybe even by the beginning of it, and Anakin...well, we've known since the 70s that he turned against the Jedi.

    TCW may have been trying to show through Barriss that the Jedi were viewed as corrupt even by some of their own, and they shouldn't have gotten into the war, but as Mia Mesharad said earlier--in trying to create sympathy for Ahsoka, the writers tried to turn the audience against the Jedi, which is pointless.

    Their efforts were lost on me, I see the Jedi as you do--good, well-intentioned people who made mistakes and in no way deserved Order 66.
     
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  14. Alixen

    Alixen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2003


    IIRC they weren't entirely united on believing Ahsoka was the guilty one, but the majority, which is what counts on a Council. The thing is, I personally actually didn't see what happened as they 'discrediting' the Council. In fact, I saw it as natural progression of doubts and difficulties they have been going through. Remember the opening of AOTC? How Dooku could not be behind things, because 'He was once a Jedi' and 'It's not in his character'. Being wrong about that hit the Jedi Council hard, and cost the lives of hundreds of Jedi, thousands by the time of said-episode. Its the same way that Mace Windu doesn't trust Anakin. Frankly, the Clone Wars have wounded the Jedi Order fatally, and them being all too willing to believe Ahsoka had betrayed them was just a symptom of those wounds. They gave Dooku the benefit of the doubt; they will never do so again.

    All just my view in it of course.
     
  15. Mzukiller

    Mzukiller Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2012
    I agree with this. I don't like this cynical idea that the Jedi are to blame for all the badness in the Star Wars universe and that they're not protectors, just passive dictators. They are the protectors, they balance and help but it just seems like ever since...KOTOR 2, people have been obsessed in making the Jedi look just as bad, if not worse, than the Sith. It's like people just can't believe that good is good and bad is bad anymore.

    So far TCW handled this the absolute worse, what with the very citizens that the Order is dedicated to protecting acting like spoiled brats and treating the Jedi like monsters just because it's dramatic.
     
  16. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    It's the old "two wrongs don't make a right" philosophy. The Jedi weren't right for what they did to the Sith, but the Sith weren't any better for retaliating. An act done in spite is an act wasted, I always say. The Sith, unlike the Jedi, aren't big on forgiveness and will actively seek revenge for a millennia old feud. There's no forgiveness, and the Sith merely want power for the sake of having power, and not actually help people with their power. The Jedi stand in the way of them achieving power, and on top of the old feud, there's just mindless power mongering from the Sith. As Anakin says in RotS "The Sith ... They think inward, only about themselves." "The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others." There is a definitive separation of philosophies between the two that make the Sith the villains and the Jedi the heroes regardless of what acts the Jedi had committed in the past.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree with most of what you said, but I'm still not following how Vader and Palpatine would not be villains if their only bad act was killing Jedi.

    I'd say they're still pretty damn villainous even if their only terrible deed was Order 66.


    Sent from my iPhone. Technology hipsters.
     
  18. darth fluffy

    darth fluffy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012

    First of all, no one is saying the Jedi are as bad as the Siht, but tit's important to note that "better than the Sith" =/= "good."

    I have some serious ethical problems with their philosophy, and I feel that, in any other universe, the Jedi would be considered villains.
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I certainly hope this isn't another "they steal babies!!!" argument. That didn't happen.

    I can't think of anything the Jedi did that would earn them the label "villains," and I'm not going to give myself a headache trying to follow the train of thought leading to the idea that Order 66 was deserved.

    I had started an Anakin Skywalker discussion thread on the temp boards and shut it down because people turned it into a Jedi-bash thread. The sentiment was there before. How much it increased with the final season of the show is anyone's guess.


    Sent from my iPhone. Technology hipsters.
     
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  20. Alixen

    Alixen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2003

    Thats not even really debatable; in our world they would at best be an uncomfortable entity. If they were bound to the EU or UN, most none-member countries would likely ban them from their states, as they are just as much spies and agents as diplomats. Their abilities would foster great mistrust. And their policy on children would either have social workers out for their blood, or trying to hire them. (I'm not a fan of government agencies with little oversight, in our own world.)

    In the more totalitarian sci-fi settings, the Jedi would be in a similar situation to Order 66 and the Dark Times.

    In a few they might fit, but very few. Mass Effect for example, they would likely fit. However, enough off-topic-ness from me.
     
  21. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    You called?
     
  22. Mzukiller

    Mzukiller Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Well, someone is. They're just not here at the moment.


    Nah, it's pretty debatable. And the way you're describing the Jedi, you make it sound like they're a violent cult that abducts children from there homes and then abuses them. In reality, they're a monastery. And they wouldn't be under debate, whatever government that uses them as soldiers would.
     
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  23. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2013
    The Jedi did hideous things in the past. They were a party to a wilful genocide, at the behest of Supreme Chancellor Pultimo. The Jedi order participated in genocide. That's a biggie. If you're talking about the Jedi Order's history of pure noble goodness and light, that's always going to be a bantha in the room.

    Also, Revan, one of the heroes of the Jedi, attempted to create an army of extermination droids with the express purpose of slaughtering anyone with any discernible Sith (species) ancestry.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Book and author?
     
  25. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    He was a hero of the Jedi for stopping Malak's campaign against the Republic. Given the atrocities Malak committed, that was deserved. Not sure Revan kept that aura after the plan you just mentioned.

    The Revan thing is in TOR.