Clone Wars Things in Star Wars That TCW Fixed Accidentally

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Dark Lord Tarkas, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'll avoid any material that involves "the Jedi committing genocide," that rhetoric makes the People's Inquest look sane, but this is also the first I've heard of the Sith being considered a species.
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  2. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Not all Sith come from the Sith species. None of the Sith in the movies did.
    Last edited by KenobiSkywalker, Sep 24, 2013
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  3. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    It's a complicated issue. Following the Great Sith War, in which Naga Sadow and the Sith Empire caused so much damage, pain, and suffering during their assault on the Republic, the Republic's leadership decided to ensure history would not repeat itself. Republic and Jedi forces initiated a attack that devastated Sith Space in an attempt to wipe out the Sith Empire and leave the Sith ill-equipped to make war again any time soon. One can see the strategic logic in that sort of pragmatic approach, but the Republic's troops got a little...overzealous. Genocide would not be an incorrect term for the result, as the original red-skinned Sith species was nearly eradicated as a result of the "Sith holocaust," an act which—much like the Clone Wars—the Jedi were complicit in as part of their association with the Republic.

    Though the Jedi were likely only intending to ensure that peace would prevail by denying the Sith the ability to continue to make war, there are limits, and the Republic-backed Jedi pushed too far. And unfortunately, the move only served to galvanize the remaining Sith. As a cruel irony, their attempt to make peace only ensure that the Sith would return later, intent to avenge their losses and declare war on the Republic again, leading to even greater death.
  4. Lazy Storm Trooper Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 4
    Oh really?
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I was going by the release of Star Wars, but OK...1980.

    So five months after the 70s ended.
  6. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
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    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    I think you meant the Great Hyperspace War. As I recall, the instigator of the Great Sith War was not Naga Sadow, who had died long ago, but Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

    A summary of what you stated can be found in this The Old Republic timeline video:


    Your last statement is interesting, and it jives with what Jedi Master Gnost-Dural states at the end of the video. The rise of Vitiate's Sith Empire on Dromund Kaas following the Sith Holocaust on Korriban would spark the Great Galactic War. Another thing I've noted looking through the history of the GFFA was that as long as the Jedi and Sith existed, great galactic conflicts between the Jedi on the side of a galactic Republic versus a Sith Empire (or some variation thereof) tended to occur many times over the course of history, beginning with the Great Hyperspace War going all the way to the Legacy era, where we have Darth Krayt's Galactic Empire and the Galactic Alliance, and later the Fel Empire. These conflicts tend to be cyclical in nature, sandwiched between periods of peace and prosperity but inevitably giving way to extensive wars. I suppose it wouldn't be Star Wars without the Wars. :p
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  7. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    :oops: Yeah, the Great Hyperspace War is the one I meant. Good catch.
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  8. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Anytime I see stories about the Jedi committing genocide, or stealing babies in the night or any of that jizz, my suspension of disbelief comes crumbling down. It's like bizarro world. There's a huge difference between flawed and that other stuff, imo.
  9. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4

    No disrespect... but seriously?

    They do, forcefully 'adopt' children who are force sensitive, via a law drafted by the government. There have been examples of Jedi using desperate situations to get ahold of children; noting that they can only protect the child if they are given over to become Jedi. We also have the case of the bounty hunter sent by parents to retrieve a child they regret giving over and have no legal right to fight for the return of.

    These children are then indoctrinated from being infants and toddlers, and raised as child soldiers. Argue all you wish that not all Jedi fight, and that there are religious monasteries that teach combat in our world, but the fact is that they are raised to idolize Knights, and expect to be taken on as apprentices at age thirteen whereupon they will start fighting and killing. There isn't a single Jedi we have seen in the PT, I believe, who has not killed. Ahsoka by the time she is fifteen is a blooded and experienced warrior.

    Monastery? They may live in one, and be somewhat monastic, but the Jedi are not monks.

    So... a secretive and superior religious order that practices indoctrination, uses child-soldiers, the training weapons they use raise painful welts/burns, with a mandate to defend (i.e. fight for) the government that harbors them... I'm sorry, what part of that wouldn't be considered sketchy in our world? They are a violent cult that abducts (legal or not) children from their homes and abuses them.

    Of course, I still love the Jedi, and consider them the heroes of the GFFA. But i'm not blind to the OJO's faults, nor now such entities are seen by our own goverments.
  10. Mzukiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    I'd just like to remind everyone involved. Whatever genocides the Jedi took part in, the Sith committed 10 times that. Genocide is wrong, yeah, but let's not forget about exactly who was on the receiving end and why.
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  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So the answer to my previous question about whether TCW intentionally ****ed up the image of the Jedi is "yes," and the argument being made now is that the show was correct to do so because the Jedi are terrible and deserve extermination?

    As far as TOR, I'm not familiar enough with the material to argue it, but based on the timeline, is it relevant? Were the Jedi who were alive when the Sith was a species, even part of the same Order that TCW era Jedi were part of?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2.
  12. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that breaks suspension of disbelief.

    They're not "indoctrinated". They're not hypnotized or forced to accept things unquestionably. They're simply taught the Jedi way. If their members were indoctrinated, then the ideal Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi wouldn't be so questioning.

    What the Jedi do is hardly any different than what religious or military schools do.

    They're not raised as child soldiers. "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers". They just foolishly got caught up in the Clone War.

    "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack". There was like a thousand years of peace in the Republic, the Clone War is an aberration.

    Why? Why are they not monks? Because you say so?

    They're religious folks of a religious organization who take a vow of poverty and chastity. How are they not monks? They sure do look like monks, talk like monks, act like monks and live like monks.

    How are they a cult? A cult usually worships a deity, a person or some idol. Nowadays they're considered deviants.

    The Jedi Order believe in the Force, something that is demonstrably real. The Jedi Order is a legitimate part of the Republic government, they're not some underground movement that only meets at night.

    I can't buy Jedi abducting children, so don't waste your energy on me with that.

    But how do they abuse them? Please tell me how.

    The Jedi don't force anything, any Jedi can leave at any time. This is demonstrably true even in the movies. See: Dooku.
  13. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    The Jedi committed genocide against the Sith species in response to the actions of the Sith order. I don't see any justification for exterminating a species just because there's an evil order with the same name.
  14. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I think swtor's Darth Revan wasn't affiliated with the Republic at all. What's with all this about Darth Revan being Jedi-backed? He's got Darth in his name, he's using Sith Lightning, and all evidence is pointing to him being a Sith. His plan was to eliminate everyone with Sith genes (which I thought included ALL Imperials, not just Sith, even traitors to the empire that joined the Republic.) That's definitely genocide if successful, so why would the Jedi support that? It's a dumb move because they'd lose any allies they may have spying on the Empire. Also, I don't think Revan could succeed in his plan for a "Sith Purge" - mainly because that would steal credit from Bane.
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  15. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I disagree considering that the Sith species has never been seen post-SWTOR.
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  16. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    True, but there is no evidence for it happening aside from Darth Revan fans thinking it's cool that Revan pwns all the Sith. There's no reason that the Sith left the galaxy given, but a lot of the vague hints in the EU hinting in different directions the plot could go. By suggesting that the Sith voluntarily initiated the rule of 2 and wiped themselves out, or that the Jedi had some kind of overwhelming victory. This is serious fan theory territory.
    Last edited by VanishingReality, Sep 25, 2013
  17. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    The birth of the Rule of Two is explained in the Darth Bane trilogy. The question is what happens in between TOR and Darth Ruin.
  18. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    Definition of indoctrination, the second. 'Instruction in the rudiments and principles of any science or belief system'. Further down titled military indoctrination 'The initial psychological preparation of soldiers during training is referred to as indoctrination'.

    http://indoctrination.askdefine.com/

    Not to say indoctrination itself is a dirty word. As a religious man myself, I don't see an issue with teaching children, my issue is their isolationist ways and other methods

    So Windu says, but just as I wouldn't go to a philosopher to get a simple answer to a simple question, i'm not going to go to one of the foremost Masters of the Jedi Order to see if they are soldiers. Instead, i'll note that all Jedi Padawan's and Knights are taught skills that wouldn't be out of place in the special forces. Source? Most Jedi material, even pre-Clone Wars.

    I refer you to my previous note, about not taking a Jedi's word, especially since the master of the previous quote developed Vaapad, man Jedi practiced form IV, and in the films, several times its actually the Jedi who ignite their lightsabers first. We see the Jedi attack, many times in various sources. Yoda reeling off doctrine that they don't simply doesn't work.

    There may have been little conflict concerning the Republic as a whole, but there was no lack of localized conflict the Jedi, including young Padawan's were expected to mediate, and fight in. The Stark Hyperspace War, for a start. Pretty much every situation in over fifteen Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Quest books. A much earlier example, Jedi VS Sith, and the Darth Bane novels.


    Er, slightly antagonistic? Please don't put words in my mouth. You might disagree with me, but is that any reason to be rude?

    They are religious folks in a religious organization, but that doesn't make them monks. They may not keep personal possessions, which is a hallmark, but they do not cloister themselves nor restrict themselves to their monasteries, and not have they taken any such vow of chastity. They do not typically marry, but that's not the same thing. Many in fact do marry, for racial or cultural reasons (Ki-Adi-Mundi's race, and Correlian Jedi.) However, i'll concede that there are influnces in that direction, and note that its not really an issue to my overall point.


    Definition of a cult; 'A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded as strange or imposing excessive control over members.' It has nothing to do with how real their beliefs are, nor how or where they meet, thats just the more horror-film definition.

    They are a relatively small religion in the area of the thousands to tens of thousands, but no more. There are for example over fourteen-million Mormons on earth. So, the Jedi are a small order even by our standards, let alone on a galactic scale. The Jedi beliefs are and would be considered strange in both the GFFA and our world, we know that the galaxy at large mistrusted the Jedi and had all manner of myth about them. And finally, their code restricts a Jedi from personal possessions, to beliefs, to behaviour, and so forth, and violations of said code can either result in harsher or re-training (Quinlan Vos), or expulsion and total abandonment of what has been the Jedi's sole support network. If you do not measure up to their standards, and are not taken as an apprentice, a place is found for you as a worker on a farm world or somesuch.

    It depends on how you define abduct. Steal into peoples houses and take a swaddled bundle, cackling as they go? No, most likely not. But as noted, it is factual that the republic gave the Order the right to effectively seize any force sensetive child they wished, the source of this is the Jedi Path. We have several stories and comics dealing with this very issue, including some of the Clone wars episodes. If you aren't willing to accept canon sources, or even sourcebooks, then perhaps its pointless to even respond at all.

    Physical abuse? The physical training that is mandatory, including sparring with training sabers that leave visible welts and bruises, training remotes that cause mild pain (but still, pain) for failure, amongst other such things. A mixture of both physical and mostly mental abuse I can cite a good example easily, in the episode where the initiates go to Illum. Their guardians wait outside, allowing them to believe they might be trapped behind the ice beyond help, to face their demons. Then there is the apprentice selection process, which bullies like Bruck Chun lash out about, and general anxiety is laid upon the students, as if they are not chosen all their training and lives up to that point is for nothing, and all that awaits them is a life chosen for them in the Agri Corps. Those weaker in the force, such as Scout, feel inadequate, and develop inferioritycomplexes. We also have the outlandish, but no less important, example of Anakin whom was not only denied contact with his mother, but was also kept under such strict watch he was able to sneak into the lower levels of Coruscant to take part in illegal racing.

    Jedi who are Knights, and perhaps older Padawan's, can leave. And there may be nothing stopping an AgriCorps farmer leaving once they hit their majority, I have no idea. But the there is no leaving or being saved before the age of thirteen and older. You will also be a source of shame should you leave as an experienced Knight or Master, as the lost twenty.


    Honesty, that's me done. If you can't see my point of view, what I see, then there is little point in discussing it. Aside from quotes by the two head Councillors of the Jedi Order, and outright denial of canon information, you haven't really said anything to disprove anything i've said. Which is fine, but it doesn't inspire me to thoughtful discussion. Shall we leave it there? I'd prefer to avoid a terse and snippy back and forth, I just don't have the energy for it.
    Last edited by Alixen, Sep 25, 2013
  19. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    It could be argued that the children would die if left with their parents due to their special condition of force-sensitivity. If they start using their powers and something sets them off, they can turn to the dark side. Although I think specifically Leia disproves this, as she is force sensitive and never once uses the force accidentally/on purpose and never turns to the dark side. Luke might have had Obi-wan's guidance on Tatooine to prevent this.
  20. Alixen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2003
    star 4
    It sounds like something that might be used to try and justify it, sure, but its also an empty argument. Unless the Jedi catch every force sensitive in their web, and Anakin is proof they don't, and there are only tens of thousands of force sensitiveness in the galaxy, then there are at the least millions, if not billions on a galactic scale, who grow up perfectly normal. With special destinies and important jobs, perhaps. Read; Leia, Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, and most of Luke's academy right up through the NJO.

    Its even arguable that training force users is more dangerous, as a fallen Jedi is immeasurably more dangerous than a smuggler or bounty hunter who always seems to get lucky just when its needed. 'Great' fallen Jedi become Jerec's, Vaders, and perhaps Xanatos's. Generally, untrained you might become a Jango Fett, or perhaps a petty warlord, unless a Sith Lord scoops you up.
    Last edited by Alixen, Sep 25, 2013
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  21. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Let's look at the rest of that page:

    The Jedi aren't expected to not question or critically examine their doctrine. This is made apparent by the constant questioning we see from all Jedi, including Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Barriss, etc. If they were expected not to question, they wouldn't be asking so many questions. Since the Jedi isn't a military and Jedi aren't soldiers, it's not military indoctrination.

    Bold mine, btw.

    Many people are taught combat and survival skills. I've had boxing instruction as a child, does that make me a child soldier?

    Are kids who are taught to handle firearms child soldiers?


    lol, you don't have to restrict yourself to a monastery to be a monk. You've never heard of traveling monks?

    Hilariously, you have criticized their isolationism in this very thread, and then claim they don't cloister themselves in their monasteries.

    By chastity I meant the whole "no attachments, no marriage" thing, I think it's comparable.

    No, "many" do not marry. Very few do. If marriage is totally cool, Anakin wouldn't feel the need to hide his, right? Isn't that what people say? "OMG they can't get married" is a focal point of much of the anti-Jedi sentiment among fans.

    However, if that's not focal to your overall point, we can move on.

    Personally, I don't consider them strange, and if the Force were a real thing in our world that the Jedi could demonstrate before my eyes as they are easily capable, I doubt I would find them strange here on Earth. I'm not sure if humans on Earth would consider them strange, I think they'd find Jedi less strange than the people who believe something that requires faith, rather than what they can see, which the Jedi have in the Force.

    Doesn't the Catholic church have restrictions on beliefs and behavior for all Catholics, and possessions for members of the clergy? Can't violations result in people being shunned by the church, society and family, or DAMNED TO BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY? Sounds pretty harsh.

    I don't find them excessive, they let people leave of their own free will. High standards doesn't make you a cult.

    On this point, it is pointless to continue. I will point out however that you ignored Mace and Yoda yourself.

    BAH HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAA!

    Physical training is abuse, hilarious.

    In this case, all military schools and the Shaolin Temple engage in child abuse. Oh, and schools with mandatory sports.

    Stop it, you're killing me. This is too much.

    Omg, initiates have to face their demons? How is that a bad thing? It's called building character and I think it's good parenting.

    Bullies? Anxiety concerning success? Are you kidding me? Ban all schools, they all have bullies and put stress on students to succeed, they're all engaging in child abuse.

    Anakin not being allowed to see his mother is abuse? Again, how is that different from the Shaolin Monastery or a boarding school?

    They won't let Anakin participate in ILLEGAL ACTIVITY, and that's abuse? LOL!

    Are we sure about this? Bah, doesn't matter. How is this any different from our society?

    Pretty sure children aren't allowed to run off and do whatever they want. Pretty sure someone has to have custody of them until they reach a certain age, even if it's the state.

    I don't think so, Dooku didn't seem to be a source of shame. If he was, it was the Jedi's shame, not Dooku's. Mace seemed to think highly of him in AOTC.

    They're still allowed to leave.

    Again, how is this any different from so many religious communities, like Mormons and the Amish?

    The Amish "shun" people, no one seems to have a problem with it.


    Indeed, this discussion has been hilarious.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Sep 26, 2013
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Many, many parents make their children go to church every Sunday, and that is definitely indoctrination, but are they evil for doing so? I don't think they are (and I'm agnostic).

    Every week my sons learn roundhouse kicks and front kicks and blocks. And when I read the philosophies that their mixed martial arts program teaches, my first thought was how similar it was to the Jedi. OMG they're being brainwashed! :eek:
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  23. Mzukiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    That doesn't change anything, though. The Sith species/order devastated the Galaxy, and I mean devastated. Entire civilizations were wiped away as if they weren't even there.

    Oh and one more thing, there's a reason they shared a name: Almost every Sithite was involved in the Sith Order. It's not as though the Jedi/Republic went after some cute teddie bears that just so happened to be called "sith."
    Last edited by Mzukiller, Sep 26, 2013
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  24. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Oh BS. The Sith species were a sentient species like any other, with free will, and capable of choosing to do good or evil like any sentient.

    It is true they tended to be slanted towards the Dark Side somewhat, but they were not bound helplessly to it. IIRC there were two or three of them served in the Jedi Order waaay back (before the GHW).

    Exterminating them out of hand is as repulsive as any other holocaust.
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  25. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I don't believe they were slanted towards the Dark Side. Rather, I believe they were raised that way.
    Last edited by purplerain, Sep 26, 2013