PT Things you didn't like about AOTC

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Apr 9, 2013.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Of course it doesn't. But tell me what would have happened to the clones otherwise? Would the Kaminoans have continued to feed and clothe them out of the goodness of their hearts?

    The clone army already exists.

    I would say the true ethical fault with the Jedi has more to do with continuing to use the clones rather than their initial acceptance. They should have pushed harder for the Republic to raise its own army of volunteers. However, I can also see how they might have believed that using the clones (who were bred as exceptional soldiers) would more quickly end the war and thus save more lives in the end.

    There's never "ethical" choices in war. Was bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki ethical? When they were full of civilians? Yet many would argue that those attacks were instrumental to ending WWII.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Apr 13, 2013
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  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The clone army didn't just exist, it was still in production. We know that they continue to make them. The Jedi by approving of this, and there is no real other word to use once they go along with it, at that point have their hands in the creation of more slaves. They are slaves by the way.


    And it must be pointed out again, the seperatists themselves didn't know the end game. They wanted to secede. Allowing them to secede was an option.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 13, 2013
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars". I think the Jedi had to fight in the Clone Wars, I think that's a given. The Jedi sitting out the Clone Wars sounds pretty boring. Of course, how the Jedi come off as a result was up to George Lucas, and I do have my complaints about that. I'm more concerned with how incompetent they appear, rather than how unethical they appear.

    Personally, I don't see using a clone army as unethical, if that's your main point of contention.

    I had a more detailed comment typed out, but I've participated in this discussion far too many times, robbing my passion for it, so I removed it. Forgive my lack of nuance.

    Back to the point, I like clones vs droids. I thought the Jedi were stupid to use the clones for logical reasons, not ethical ones. Of course, competence at ethics go hand in hand. Ultimately, the Old Jedi Order had to fall, and George wanted their flaws to play a part in that fall, and that's what happened.
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  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    They already had plenty of soldiers that existed though -- as we see from the films. I already stated that I think the Jedi's greater fault was in continuing to use the clones rather than the initial acceptance (in a time of emergency) of those that already existed.

    And I wouldn't say slaves, necessarily. How is the use of clones all that different from conscription? In both cases, you force young men to fight and die for your safety. They don't have a choice and desertion is often met with prison time and/or execution.

    I would say that there's no indication that the Jedi viewed the clones as slaves. There's no evidence that they didn't, though, of course. But they did call them by name and treat them as equals. I think the Jedi would have likely rationalized it by saying that the clones would be integrated into the Republic after the war and become citizens.

    Like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, everyone has their reasons for doing things, but that doesn't make the act itself ethical. I can follow the Jedi's train of thought, even though I can recognize that it's wrongheaded. Which is much easier for me to do as an observer, of course.
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    They are slaves, born and bred to do nothing but serve their masters and die when they are ordered to die. Genetically manipulated to make them easy to control, like livestock. You guys don't see an ethical problem with that? This isn't semantics
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 13, 2013
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  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I wouldn't say "nothing but" if the Jedi had wanted to integrate the clones into society following the defeat of the Separtists. To give them a chance for a life of their own.

    I would say it's similar to conscription in that, in both cases, the individuals fighting do not have a choice in the matter and are being thrown at the enemy so that those back home can continue to exist in safety.

    Ethically, both are wrong. But I think the Jedi would have seen the issue in terms of how to save the most lives. If they hadn't used the clone army against the Separatists, the Separtists would have overrun them and crushed any individual planet's army. They likely would have overtaken Kamino and made use of the clones there as well. I think the Jedi would have seen it as the lesser of two evils to fight with the clones and then give them the opportunity to become citizens once the war was over rather than let the Separtists overrun the Republic and get their hands on them anyway.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "Ordered to die"? Do what?

    I don't get into the clone debate at all, I have a problem with the idea of cloning humans in general but it's Star Wars so I overlook it, and my bigger issue is with their being "genetically modified to obey any order"--i.e. ordered to kill, as opposed to being "ordered to die."

    But I don't see the Jedi as the ones having the morality problem, that's Palpatine, and among the unethical things that he did, using a clone army isn't even in the top ten.
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Conscription comes with similar moral questions but in one very important way this is worse. These people were created for this purpose, and for no other. They were created to be an army in a lab.
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Captain Tom Coughlin

    I think you misunderstand my position. I believe that the use of the clone army is unethical. However, I can also see why the Jedi would use them -- believing it to be the lesser of two evils. That's my position, in a nutshell.

    And I think the PT itself goes a long way to pointing this out. By saying early in AOTC that the Jedi are "keepers of the peace, not soldiers" and then having the very clone army they fought side by side with turn around and massacre them. The Jedi paid for their mistakes quite heavily.
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I don't think we are that far off. You do see the ethical problem. You are more forgiving of it perhaps, but you do see it. I give you credit for that. Some fans here will chaff at the idea that the Jedi are anything less than good
  11. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    I don't see it that way at all. By the time of AOTC the Republic and the Confederacy have been in long negotiations without much result (Palpatine states as much.) Then they discover that the separatists have built an enormous army that they are readying for war. To top it off the separatists are about to execute a Jedi Knight which pretty much shows they're not to interested in peace with the Republic. So Mace initially goes to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan from being executed. Also there is this little tidbit from Count Dooku:

    So the Jedi and the Republic know exactly what the separatists motivation is.

    As for the clones what exactly do the Jedi know? They know that a nameless Jedi erased the records of Kamino from the archives and Obi-Wan finds out that Jedi named Sifo-Dyas ordered the construction of the clone army. Why Dyas ordered it no one knows but it definitely gives him a good reason to erase the data. The only other pieces of information they have is a name Tyrannus (who could be anyone including Sifo-Dyas using a fake name) and a bounty hunter named Jango Fett.

    Obviously they should be suspicious but they don't have much time to question in AOTC because Obi-Wan is about to be executed and the separatists are about to attack. ROTS shows that they are very suspicious, though. Their suspicious of Palpatine and order Anakin to spy on him. Their suspicious of the war and want Palpatine to end it. So it seems to me that they are still in the middle of investigating.
  12. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    First, there is no "you guys", only the person who made that comment, which was me. No, I don't have an ethical problem with that, for various reasons I've explained before. I think the others in this discussion have said otherwise.

    Also, as I said before, I like having mindless killing machines, organic vs inorganic. I find it rather amusing, and I think their use (not specifically, but clones vs droids in general) makes sense both in-universe and as part of the story detailing the destruction of the Old Republic and the Old Jedi Order, from multiple related standpoints.
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  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not saying that you are unethical for enjoying the movie, if that is what you think. I'm saying that the characters of the Jedi are unethical

    Most of your points seem to be that you enjoy watching it, I have no problem with that.

    I'm talking about the ethics of the fictional characters, not the real life people watching a make believe movie
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Well, the way I look at it, had the Jedi been wholly good, they would not have fallen. I can more easily forgive it, I suppose, because I can see why they did the things they did, even if I don't think it's right or ethical. It was through these painful failures that they became wiser by the time of the OT, although even then, they still had more to learn -- things that Luke taught them.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I can agree with this
  16. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yes, I realize that.

    No, I do not think it was unethical to use a genetically modified clone army. In itself it was not unethical imo, but the Jedi were terribly stupid to use this particular clone army considering the circumstances, and incompetence often breeds unethical results.
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then you and I just fundamentally disagree on the ethics of the matter.
  18. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    1. the love story - I would have preferred that it was established that they had a secret romance going on for a year or so and are keen on keeping it secret (or even Anakin having doubts and conflicted being in the Jedi order). It was just poorly written and executed.

    2. Obi-Wan depending on a bunch of little kids to figure out what happened to Kamino. I just detested the entire scene.

    3. Anakin arguing with his Master at every turn (and complaining). He is never presented as being noble and likable.

    4. the cartoonish way the speeder chase is done. It makes Ani look like Superman. No tension.

    5. the droid factory scene

    6. the Threepio comic relief attempts

    Now, even with these criticisms, I enjoyed AOTC. A solid "B". After the mess that was TPM, I thought SW was back on track. Even with it's failings, it was an enjoyable movie. Obi-Wan a great main character. Nicely done effects overall. Christopher Lee (a master at his craft) as Dooku. Jango Fett, the clones, the ocean planet of Kamino, the start of the Clone Wars, etc. Good stuff. I just wish the movie could be tweaked I guess haha.
  19. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    It was a show of arrogance — that this mercenary thought he could challenge him.
  20. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    I don't think we'll ever know the true reason why he glared at Jango's decapitated body.[face_dunno]
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  21. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    While I love AOTC, I HATE C-3PO from the point that they land on Geonosis onwards
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  22. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Well, that's pretty much how I saw Mace Windu and all the rest of the Jedi — a bunch of arrogant fools.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Problem is, they're not "mindless". The fact that they can think, is what, according to the Kaminoans "makes them immensely superior to droids".
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  24. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    He was there purely for humor, it seems like.
  25. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, this is well-treaded territory, but the C-3PO droid factory stuff is way out-of place. I'd probably like it if it were in a cartoon or something, but it simply does not fit after the grim and saddening death of Shmi and Anakin's dark moment. I understand the desire to insert some lightheartedness to balance it out, but this silliness was inserted with a crowbar.
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