PT Things you didn't like about AOTC

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Feelicks, Apr 9, 2013.

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  1. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    I didn't like Anakin's romantic tragedy dialogue in the fireplace. Not that I don't like that kind of language it just felt really cheesy and cliche. Should have been worked on more.
    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR likes this.
  2. Darth Dnej Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2013
    star 1
    Let's see, where oh where to begin. :confused:

    1. The terrible romance scenes
    2. Anakin's senseless slaughter of the Tusken Raiders
    3. Obi-Wan acting like a jerk (this is the least likable he has been in the six films)
    4. Jar Jar, while he has less screen time he still gave Palpatine the Emergency Powers (which makes me cringe)
    5. Anakin being a major, whiny prick in general.
    6. The Jedi's stupidity/ cannon fodder jedi
    7. Padme's disturbing reaction to Anakin's mass murder.
    8. Yoda's fighting. I am not totally against Yoda wielding a lightsaber, but his technique is ridiculous and laughable.
    Chainmail_Jedi likes this.
  3. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    HD, don't take this personally -- I'm picking on you only because I'm bored. :p

    No, seriously, you're one of my favourite posters (you look good on my wall, don't ya know?).

    No, but darn it, you are! And I feel you make sensible criticisms and can be appealed to. Or you at least give me something reasonable to go on.

    So...

    I agree with you on those points. Except the scene you flag up between Obi-Wan and Mace. Great to have that hangar in AOTC, so that there's stronger continuity between it and ROTS, and some neat cinematography there, BUT... this scene was essentially replaced/upgraded by the three-way chat that Obi/Mace/Yoda have about Anakin in the atrium. And that replacement works better, IMO.

    Crying shame about some of that other stuff, though. I've recently realized I miss the courtyard discussion most of all, if only to get a little more of that courtyard! And yes, it's a humanizing conversation, adding to the "day in the life" feel that AOTC advances/plays with in its first half at several points.

    Heh. There are just opinions. Good and bad ones, perhaps, but no true "right" or "wrong".

    In Corde's eyes, she wasn't meant to die and leave Padme vulnerable. She probably also blamed herself for not sniffing out the danger.

    (That said, I'm not a huge fan of this exchange. The whole thing is a bit, well, ham-handed, I think. I mean, it sorta needs to be that way, but the details of the explosion and how Padme clumsily moves Corde -- who could have neck/spinal damage -- always irk me. Though, maybe, in some small way, this is also a rhyme for Anakin hastily removing Shmi from the rack and seeming to prompt her demise, later on.)

    In what sense? Palpatine is telling an open truth here. He's saying that he loves how the ineptitudes of this societal arrangement have given him an open door to power. It's a biting attack on the limitations of democracy that could be straight out of Plato.

    Obi-Wan is lamenting the fact that Anakin is impulsive and reckless and does things without telling him and/or wriggles out of a lecture by way of some convenient escape route -- exacerbating Obi-Wan's upset and making his heart jump at the same time.

    Ha! Yes, it is. But Obi-Wan's nerves were probably so frayed at this point that that's about all he could offer. He kinda condescends to Anakin and gives him the brush off while he's desperate for a quick drink to calm himself (even if this forms part of a gambit he and Anakin are about to act out).

    Well, in a way, they are. TESB Yoda: "There is no 'why'." The characters are a bit different in AOTC. And Yoda seems preppier in places, especially in the younglings scene, as if he's some stalwart passenger on a sinking ship, trying to make the best of a bad situation. I think this adds to his character, myself.

    The Poetic Menace. Anakin's muse -- tenuous to begin with -- breaks down at this point. He ends up repeating himself in a somewhat clumsy fashion, but then, many would charge that the prequel trilogy's maker did exactly this with the entire trilogy. :p

    Give me more! [face_clown]

    Ah, there we go. :D

    Jango has something that seems to resemble a flak cannon. Might be very useful in some situations and highly impractical in others. Boba is very surprised when Jango actually hits Obi-Wan's ship. Maybe he was even trying not to incapacitate Obi-Wan (Machiavellian plot).

    The fact that Sidious DOESN'T appear as a hologram is very interesting. The lone corporeal appearance is very in-keeping with TPM, which also only gives a single, brief cameo of Sidious in this form (also, interestingly or not, with his apprentice on Coruscant).

    Obi-Wan's mission takes us off the beaten path, so to speak, and I like that about it tremendously. In fact, when he meets the Kaminoans, it's like some Near Death Experience, or the sort of experience one reputedly gets on LSC and mescaline, with strange, alien beings gently guiding one through iridescent fractal patterns -- so-called "higher dimensions" -- and the like.

    Anakin's attempt to immediately take Dooku on is very raw and real, IMO, and shows Anakin as something more than just an archetype. You could even say he's the only with a a soul ("ani" = "anima"). He wants to do good and from that drive arises frustration, impatience, greed, vanity, etc. We see many of those traits compacted into his foolish run at Dooku.

    If one is to point the finger anywhere, one should probably point it at Obi-Wan, in my view, since he literally screamed at Anakin to abide by his orders after Anakin -- understandably -- fretted for Padme's life, invoking the martial concept of duty and hanging the threat of explusion over his head should he have refused to obey his edict and attempt to rescue Padme instead. Putting emotions aside and looking at their actions objectively, a human rights commission would probably find the Jedi guilty of numerous human rights abuses.

    Not really. There are no inconsistencies, only new developments! ;) Dooku doesn't just fry Anakin, but actually lifts him into the air, then deposits him like an insect. Fans haven't really thought about this, but Dooku could be more powerful than the Emperor. His lightning might not be as ferocious, but he seems to have a great command of the Force: an impressive syntax if you like. Note how he later flings Anakin like a ragdoll and even seems to put him to sleep momentarily (he does the same to Obi-Wan in their rematch in ROTS). Anakin probably felt the fury of several different techniques at once and that's why he couldn't immediately get up.

    And that is all just one interpretation. What you also seem to overlook is that no-one in the movies is hit with a burst of lightning and simply dusts themselves off. When Luke is hit with that first burst in ROTJ, he's straight on his side and very quickly on the floor. When Yoda is blasted in ROTS, he is violently flung against a wall and knocked unconscious. Apparently, it's not something even a capable Jedi takes lightly. You have to be on your guard against it or you will come a-cropper. And this is the point: Anakin is not on his guard. He rushes Dooku like a cheetah about to tear into prey, not aware that his prey can fight back that quickly, or in that manner. If it's the latter, by the way, it raises an interesting question: did Anakin even know that an ex-Jedi could so easily use a power like lightning? If he didn't, it seems the Jedi never prepared him for an event like this. "It's not a story the Jedi would tell you."

    It's more sad than profound. Yoda is so dejected by what happened on Geonosis, and what he sensed earlier in Anakin ("Skywalker is in pain"), as well as the changing fortunes of the galaxy ("Seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart", "Blind we are if creation of this Clone Army we could not see"), that this is almost him at his lowest ebb. Now, even his closest compatriots cannot see the madness that has been unleashed. If The Comic Book Guy was writing his biography at this point, then it would surely read: WORST. DAY. EVER.

    It's the most dreamy and surreal of the six, I think.

    Just consider the visual patterning in this couplet:

    http://starwarsverses.tumblr.com/post/47590307850

    Add this one and AOTC becomes *very* interesting:

    http://starwarsverses.tumblr.com/post/47655914231

    "Some dialogue" (or some-whatever) with "hidden meaning".

    This is like saying there's some neat poetry in Shakespeare, some neat philosophy in Dostoyevsky, some neat brush strokes in Monet, some neat revelations in "On The Origin Of Species", etc.

    These are wonderful films to watch and explore. That's my view, anyway. :-B
  4. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Good to hear from you Cryo. Don't feel you are picking on me, it gives me something to talk about :p

    I strongly prefer the original scene. Mace actually comes off as nice here, there is a warmth between Obi-Wan and Mace that I don't think any other scene in the prequels does for Mace ("You must trust him to do the right thing."). Maybe "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" as well, but nothing that shows Obi-Wan and Mace as friends. On top of that, this is the only time we see the Jedi talk about Anakin's attachment to Padme, it's an interesting perspective on it that the finished film is lacking. Thirdly, there is the line "This disturbance in the force is making it hard to get a sense of things". You could argue the line "I think it is time that we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished" covers this, but personally I feel losing this scene was a waste. The replacement scene has it's merits ("A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are."), but I felt the scene we were left with was colder tbh.


    Good point on the "day in the life" feel of some the movie. Could you give me a few more examples? That is likely a reason I enjoy the scene.


    Interesting, but Shmi probably would have died soon anyway. I doubt Anakin prompted her death, it might seem a little contrived but it seems to me Anakin arrived just as she was about to pass to add the tragic element to the moment, and perhaps tie into his frustration at the Jedi for not preventing it. You may be right that moving her is what prompted it, I'm really not sure. Either way, it is for me the strongest and most emotional moment in the film.


    It's hard to argue when you express things this eloquently, but I still think the line was a little too obvious.


    True, it just seems like this was a one-off and the exposition implying he does it all the time seems out of place. But you are probably right, it was more that he interrupted Obi-Wan's lecture with an impulsive and reckless gesture.


    Again, you make a good point, but I really think this is probably the worst line in the movie. Something else that bothers me about this scene, why does Lucas make it look like Anakin is the one that is about to be ambushed by Zam, then at the last moment it is shown to be Obi-Wan? Seems like a cheap trick to me.


    I don't see where it is implied that Yoda is "trying to make the best of a bad situation"? It's there in ROTS, but for most of AOTC the Jedi don't seem to reflect this at all. One of the reasons I can't watch Ep2 as much as the other five is the discrepancy between the incarnations of the characters. Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, Anakin... they just don't represent the same characters to me. I think Yoda's character is done the most damage, I can tolerate and even like the other portrayals, but Yoda rarely says anything wise in AOTC. In ESB pretty much everything he says is gold, from the first moment where he mischievously toys with Luke to later lamenting Luke's decision to abandon his training and attempt to save his friends. Moments like the "Hmmph" after Luke's experience at the cave say it all.


    lol. That, I don't agree with. The repetition rarely makes me lose interest, perhaps because of the diversity in the way it is executed.


    I don't see it. Since when did they need to use a missile to "finish him off"? It seems like a cheap plot-device to me.


    I hadn't thought of the fact the only time we see Sidious in the flesh in TPM and AOTC is on Coruscant meeting his apprentice. In TPM it is sending him on a mission, in AOTC the apprentice reports back after finishing a major one. Interesting.


    Tbh I just find a lot of Obi-Wan's mission boring filler. [face_dunno][face_beatup]
    Nothing important enough to warrant the amount of time spent on it, I usually just wish i was watching ESB (a much better middle-chapter) or ROTS (where I actually like Anakin.)


    Very true. Some may complain about the general shininess of the scenes overly distancing the movies from the OT (intentional as it may be), but you put good meaning to it. It certainly is a unique setting for Star Wars, and I do think it is meant to be surreal/trippy as you are saying.


    Well put. But Anakin could have left the Order any time he wanted. I know it wasn't as simple as that, however. It was the only life he knew.


    I guess. One thing that bugs me about this possible inconsistency, though, is the amount of time The Emperor fries Luke for without killing him. Even being aware that he is torturing him at first, it just doesn't match what we see in the other movies.


    Again, you make a fair point. But (to go off on a tangent) if Yoda sensed Anakin's pain, why did they never follow it up? As far as we are shown in the films, he
    only ever confides in Palpatine about it.
    Anyway, I do (now that you mention it) detect an undertone of sadness from Yoda here, but I don't think the dialogue really delivers this to us. I may be a little hypocritical to say this, but it just seems to me like they were spelling out to the audience that the war had started, and this is the main function of Yoda's comment here. I could be wrong.


    I know where you are coming from. The mysterious mood set up by the use of clouds and the pan up at the start of the film comes to mind. Please elaborate on what I may be missing "Dreamy and surreal" wise. Like you have often said, the use of colours in the film is somewhat unique to AOTC, and hell it is Star Wars, which both instantly makes me like it but magnifies it's flaws.
    I find ESB to be more dreamy though, that film is a masterpiece.


    Hadn't seen that, I still have yet to fully browse that site. Great use of colour, and contrast in character IMO.


    Yeah I like these ones between TPM and AOTC. Anakin carrying the torch for Qui-Gon while Obi-Wan is always the constant in the middle. He loses his Master to a Sith (Maul), then metaphorically loses his apprentice to one (Vader).


    lol.

    Of course. I do enjoy aspects of AOTC, the rich symbolism and all, and it is only a flawed movie when compared to other Star Wars for me. But I still enjoy discussing it.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Apr 28, 2013
  5. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
  6. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    I didn't even know there was a re-edit , is this the blu-ray ? whats different ?
  7. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah, on the blu-ray there is a moment during Dooku fleeing (after "This is just the beginning") where Yoda just stands there and seem to reflect on what has just happened. It makes it seem like he is letting Dooku escape when he could have easily given chase. Weird change really.
    gezvader28 likes this.
  8. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    I kinda like a lot of it , it felt more like SW than TPM which I can hardly watch at all .

    the main problems with AOTC for me are :

    the anakin -obi friendship , what friendship ?
    the romance - god , where to start ? Anakin starts off stalkery and gets worse , he's like Travis Bickle at times .
    there's a lot of useless material in the first 90 minutes , all that stuff on Naboo , younglings , Dexter etc.

    but I do love the art direction , the look , Coruscant in the clouds , lots of atmospheric shots , Kamino , the action scenes are good .

    it would've been a lot better if Anakin and Padme had gone thru an action scene earlier in the picture (instead of the droid factory one) this would've livened up their relationship instead of all that moping about and going on holiday detours , its like a travelogue at times !.

    Chris Lee is very good , 'cos he's one of those actors like Cushing who just knows how to do great B movie acting , and thats not a backhanded compliment , very few can do it .
    Last edited by gezvader28, Apr 28, 2013
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  9. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I knew you'd understand. [face_pig] [face_coffee] [face_party]

    I prefer Lucas' redaction of this scene into the aforementioned atrium scene/setting. What works best about the replacement, from a visual standpoint, IMO, is the slightly fake "floaty" look it has, which carries an experimental vibe and inflects the scene with an added narrative (in adjacent scenes -- before and after -- (b) Palpatine and Anakin somewhat float across the office and (a) Anakin idly levitates that globe object in Padme's bedroom). Makes the film trippier in my estimation.

    I disagree that Mace radiates a warmth in the deleted scene. To me, he's more or less the same in both: monastic, matter-of-fact, austere. If anything, I'd give the edge to the atrium scene, since Mace tells Obi-Wan to remember, rather than saying he "must" have or do X or Y (keep the faith in Anakin). In the atrium scene, Mace's admonition is less an order that dismisses Obi-Wan's feelings, more a gentle prod that Anakin's growing pains may constitute a critical part of the "Chosen One" package.

    And Yoda's presence in the atrium scene humanizes the film a bit more, I think. It also provides a sense of there being a strong bond between Obi-Wan and Yoda which is later revisited in the younglings scene. And since Obi-Wan and Mace briefly interact here and will again later (back at base after the Battle of Geonosis -- and in the battle itself, come to think of it), one can also say that the film retains a Mace-Obi thread, even if the Yoda-Obi one ultimately trumps it somewhat.

    I do like that line in the deleted scene, though, hinting that the Jedi are being a bit more open-minded recently, perhaps, because they've been humbled by this fresh wave of confusion and blindness. I also like the look of the scene. The setting. Obi-Wan going right to the edge of Coruscant, almost, climbing in his starfighter, and ascending to the heavens. And if the Jedi Temple Hangar had NOT featured at all in ROTS, I'd be hacked off that we'd lost a cool location. In fact, AOTC features several oval-eye forms -- see: http://starwarsverses.tumblr.com/post/44671913342 -- and the hangar entrance/exit is one of them. Kind of unfortunate that that was lost.

    I don't meant to proselytize, here, by the way! We're both being rather specific over such short scenes. But that's the fun of a chat like this. No-one is out to convert the other. We're just sharing what we see. :cool:

    Okay, yeah:

    - Scene between Anakin and Padme in Padme's bedroom (packing)
    - Scene between Dex and Obi-Wan in the diner
    - Scene between Anakin and Padme on the refugee transport
    - The younglings scene
    - The aforementioned courtyard scene
    - Scene between Anakin and Padme in the meadow
    - Scene between Anakin and Padme having dinner
    - Cut scenes of Anakin and Padme at Padme's home

    All these have "day in the life" hallmarks, like bright lighting, people milling about, the consumption of food and beverages, idle chatter/characters getting to know each other, domestic settings, quotidian terms like "boyfriend" and quasi-contemporary banter, or just your average day at school with a Jedi twist.

    It sort of plugs into the broad theme of impatience and the motif of hasty interventions making a bad situation worse. Anakin didn't really assess the situation when he broke into the tent. He saw Shmi all tied up, pulled a face of disgust/dismay, then immediately began freeing her and took her straight down. There was, seemingly, little to no thought in what he did, or what cost his actions might have on Shmi's weakened body. His own overeagerness destroyed the very person he came to rescue. This eventuality is clearly revisited on Mustafar with Anakin and Padme (and similar cack-handed interference by Obi-Wan at a point of great fragility). Even the Promethean lighting (fire/orange) is a reprise.

    Heh. Thanks, HD. I'm not sure what you mean -- with respect to the viewer? Maybe. But it has a boldness that fits very well with the significance of what Palpatine is doing or about to have happen. These films have that operatic, moral dimension to them. In fact, in AOTC, Padme herself says, "All mentors have a way of seeing more of our faults than we would like. It's the only way we grow." Lucas/Palpatine sees the faults of democracy (as it is actually practiced) and all hierarchical systems and it's the grand orchestrator -- the Supreme Chancellor himself -- mouthing a truism to us. We might also laugh *because* it's such a bare-faced comment he makes: a sly epigraph. This very line, for me, elevates the prequel trilogy a tier, especially when you add to it the circus setting of the Senate, the wry mix of humans and aliens cheering in an echoic dome, and Jar Jar. Grand farce. Lucas obviously continues this uniquely-countenanced humour with Threepio's calamity interbred with all the other thunderous absurdity on Geonosis. It's what makes AOTC such an extravagant fugue.

    Yeah, I get you. All throughout AOTC, there's this diabolic silliness to the dialogue. You have identified one of numerous instances where a line seems lurid, undercooked, ill-fitting, and overblown all at once. Lucas constantly inserts comic-book one-liners into Clones, making it more of an extreme riff on the other entries -- as if everything that is happening here, and in the series entire, is too crazed to be anything BUT ridiculous when annotated in words. Colours to the max, dialogue to the minimum. It's one of Lucas' many artful paradoxes. You can atomize individual moments and explain them (as I previously did based on your original objection), but ultimately, the film has such a bevy of these moments that it defeats and make a mockery of such attempts. Which is why I like to bask in its knowing facileness. That's my take on things, anyway.

    Hehehe. Re: the line. I somewhat agree. It's the nadir or the zenith of the film's opening sequence -- depending on how you want to look at it. Star Wars is full of "cheap tricks" on the level you're talking about. Those camera/lighting/editing tricks are all over the shop. Perspective changes and sudden switches are everywhere. And reversals of fortune are an inherent part of the saga's circuitous narrative.

    Yoda has a fairly upbeat demeanour before he shuts himself away to meditate. For the most part, he appears to be putting on a brave face, so to speak, and maybe trying to project a different aura. He realizes things are bad, but maybe sells himself a delusional belief that -- at least with the Chosen One now on-board and not necessarily realizing Yoda's earlier worries in TPM just yet -- it will all iron out sooner or later. Even when he expresses anguish over not being able to sense the Clone Army in advance, he seems to reach for the silver lining when he says, "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness". As in, he still believes the Jedi have a fighting chance of making it through the murk and coming out the other side. But later developments with Anakin and on Geonosis perhaps serve to alter his thinking and bring on a new uncertainty and regret.

    Yes. A faltering Jedi youth's advances are hardly comparable. :p

    Still, what this means, or could mean, is that Anakin doesn't have a proper grasp of the story-verse he's within.

    Attempts to be poetic are maladroit for this frustrated mechanic prodigy and quickly break down in the face of adversity.

    Perhaps it's no coincidence that Anakin has his most intense nightmare to date after Padme's rejection (he operates better at the subconscious). Then he will be seen meditating the pain of failure and powerlessness away.

    At the lake retreat in early morning light, he's bathing himself in the fragrant airs of Naboo and trying to draw comfort from them: a loner apart from civilization. Only, we know his attempts do him little good.

    I think there's something deeply tragic in this entire view of Darth Vader.

    "Jango, finish her off!"

    Him/her dialectic. Anima/animus.

    Sorry, got distracted. Wer, what?

    I don't know about the missile business, aside from the fact that its vapour trail is blue (Obi-Wan/Padme/padawan).

    I think it was designed, at a minimum, to make Boba think that Obi-Wan had been destroyed, if I were to stick with the "Machiavellian plot" interpretation. Maybe Jango was setting Obi-Wan up and wanted him to follow...

    Or -- his cannons weren't good enough to completely obliterate Obi-Wan's ship, so he let a missile do the job.

    Yes. Neat link!

    I dunno, I just love the fact that Obi-Wan has his own mission, and Lucas later exploits the rift of master and apprentice by aligning their stories in a critical way (Anakin breaks contact and shirks his obligations by going after Shmi and returning to mourn and bury her while Obi-Wan is in desperate need of his assistance to retransmit his message all the way to Coruscant). Their parallel stories are quite interesting, in my view, and Lucas constructs imagery of Obi-Wan as this glaring skygod figure (look to a pregnant cut from Obi-Wan looking down at the separatists to Anakin scoping out the Tusken camp right before he jumps -- Obi-Wan appears to be watching over Anakin).

    Thanks. The weird naming convention Lucas uses for the Kaminoans adds further intrigue. For one, their name could be read as a contraction of the words "amino" and "koan" -- koans as fundamental building blocks (amino acids) of the body of the SW saga generally. Weirdly, both the words "lama" and "taun" connote tauntauns and llamas, with the former fictional creature from the middle installment of the OT roughly based on the real-life South American mammals. "Lama" is also a title in Tibetan Buddhism. And the Rishi Maze -- a navigation point for accurately locating Kamino -- is clearly a Lucasian nod to ancient Indian mysticism (rishis were scribes). The uniqueness of Kamino is borne out in the big and the small.

    Right. If you deprive a person of knowledge and experience of alternatives, what are they likely to do? Chafe against dictates when forbidden things beckon, but then distrust their own disobedience and return to the comfort of the familiar. In this way, you can ensnare a person forever. Lucas described the underground city of "THX-1138" as being like a prison cell with an open door -- and only one character is brave enough (or simply de-hooked enough from state-sanctioned drug regimes) to cross the threshold and defy the oppressive banality of his social environment. What chance does Anakin have in a world where these people -- who, ironically, preach against fear -- are his masters? This is a question worth thinking on, perhaps.

    Some possibilities exist to account for this (minor) discrepancy:

    - The Emperor was weaker in the Force at this point than he realized or was willing to admit ("Strange that I have not").

    - The Emperor was, as you have acknowledged, simply torturing Luke initially, very much determined to keep him alive for a bit and make him suffer.

    - Luke is the offspring of Anakin and can take a lot of abuse before dying.

    - Luke is righteous and moral fables reward the righteous with boons of one kind or another. His purity, therefore, makes him particularly resilient against the Emperor's Dark Side-fueled attack.

    Yes, I think that's fair. A lot of the dialogue in Star Wars is declaratory: things are often announced rather than reacted to, if you will. This is a large part of the reason, I think, the dialogue of the films is often maligned for being starchy and juvenile. But there's such a grimness to these final words of Yoda that I can forgive the film. Plus, Yoda is such a teacher -- especially in this installment -- that I find it fitting he has the last words. No-one has apparently felt this peripatetic turn of events more than he. He really takes this downturn to heart by realizing his own complicity -- which is sharply contrasted with his own students who still think victory has been snatched from a bad situation. This scene, more than any other, makes clear that Yoda sees farther and better than other Jedi, even in the darkest of times. It even contains a hint that Yoda lets his younger fellows work things out on their own, but will intervene when he hears grievous error. It sets up his own arc in the remainder of the saga: a sagely master who carries a heavy burden of sadness and regret.

    I dunno. There's more of an "alpha wave" level of communication to AOTC. It also places large and unusual emphasis on sleeping, sleep-walking (metaphorically: e.g., Threepio on Geonosis), dreams, nightmares, etc. There are clouds and vapours. Hazes. Dream-like colour schemes. Characters that fall into trances or behave with odd emotions. A meta-narrative concerning the film "Tron" and other dream-escapades. The crawl even begins by announcing that there is "unrest" in the Senate; and in an early cut scene, Padme tries to rouse senators by literally telling them to "wake up".

    You say TESB is "more dreamy" (fair enough), but I think AOTC pushes deeper into that territory. With its bright embrace of digital ornaments, it is almost a lucid dream. Lucas changes the landscape en masse with his technology and throws in a lot of computer-y stuff with abandon. A good dream-link between AOTC and TESB is that Luke glimpses or hallucinates "a city in the clouds" -- Coruscant at the start of AOTC. Another is the clothing of Yoda and Han (a brown/beige garment of the former movie is traded for grey/white, which has reverted back to brown/beige no later than the middle of the next movie). That's enough for now.

    Yup. I also like the implied lens distortion (the wall/structural elements in the background).

    That's one reading. I like the subtle shift in colours/forms, myself.

    Sorry, I got a little wise there. :p

    Yes, indeed.

    To reiterate, there are no rights or wrongs. And discussion can be most fun!
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Apr 28, 2013
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  10. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Sorry for the lateness of my reply. You make a lot of good arguments and points, I didn't know where to start.


    True. I do think floating the chair reflects Yoda's style, for lack of a better word.


    Hmm. I disagree that the original comment sounded like an order. I may have misquoted the line, but the way he says it seems more that this is the one time he actually believed in Anakin, although the line in the final cut I guess achieves this as well. Look and listen to the way he says it... it is quite out of character for the Mace presented to us in the prequels.


    Yes, it certainly makes sense that Obi-Wan and Yoda are going to share the bond of being the last of the Jedi. But there are other instances where Mace and Yoda seem to think along the same line... "A prohecy that misread could have been." And Yoda certainly makes mistakes in the prequels, it is part of his character arc that he has grown by the time he trains Luke.


    It's just that Obi-Wan and Mace IMO look a bit more perceptive in the deleted scene, there is no other mention by the Jedi in AOTC of Anakin's attachment to Padme. Seems like a big point to completely miss out, and while I think Yoda had a feeling (or sensed) post-Order 66 why Anakin turned, it isn't actually discussed onscreen by the Jedi.


    Thankyou for the list :) . I agree, the movie does perhaps flesh out the GFFA in a way I perhaps underappreciate. There is incredible scope and detail in the prequels, although I feel at the cost of good characterisation in parts. AOTC, particularly, is the most inconsistent, and it can be frustrating because I love the series so much.


    Interesting, but I still presume Shmi was going to die whether Anakin arrived or not. I agree about the similarity this would have to Obi-Wan on Mustafar, and the fire lighting the scene definitely ties in with other scenes... the fireplace discussion in AOTC, Mustafar generally, Vader's funeral, and an inversion of the DeathStar II setting where Anakin dies after being redeemed.


    Well put. I guess the line I bolded I'm in particular agreeance with.


    Interesting. Completely understand what you mean, and it is reflected in a lot of the prequel dialogue.


    You see many things I would never have thought of, but I don't think even Yoda truely sees the end of the Jedi coming. What do you make of his moment of contemplation on Geonosis directly after Obi-Wan argues with Anakin about leaving Padme behind?


    Nice. As usual I don't have much to add, but perhaps there is a link to Luke's visions coming in times of hardship/stress and the timing of Anakin's as you have put.


    Yeah, I think it was mostly a plot-device to make Jango and Boba think they were no longer being tracked, and giving Obi-Wan an opportunity to land on Geonosis secretly. Plus the ESB parallel where Boba knows Han's trick (hiding on a horizontal surface and invertedly using ejected parts to hide) because Obi-Wan used it on him as well. But I hate the inconsistency in how much Obi-Wan is hit, nothing is going to make me like that aspect of the scene...


    I do find a lot of meaning in the moment Obi-Wan realises Anakin is on Tatooine. He has no idea what Anakin is going through, and planets away, isolated from Anakin both physically and figuratively, Obi-Wan unconsciously states "What in blazes is he doing there?" This an obvious repeated them of course, where Obi-Wan will leave Anakin to fight Grievous in the next installment, leaving Anakin right where Palpatine wants him. Another obvious example I'm sure you already noticed is the fact Obi-Wan is out-cold when Anakin kills Dooku. Palpatine's manipulative comments completely stop when Obi-Wan regains consciousness.


    Interesting. There is certainly clever use of language in Star Wars, you have a keen eye for this stuff.


    Well said. The topic on the stagnation of the Jedi could have been explored more effectively in the prequels, but I think it is heavily implied in the final product.


    That's an interesting take on it.


    It would be consistent with the fact that they never seem to tell Luke this either.


    I doubt this would be reflected in his strength with force attacks. The lack of power for the Jedi and the Sith at the end of each trilogy respectively seems more about awareness and foresight IMO.

    True, but I think Anakin should have saved him faster, then there wouldn't be a discrepancy in the first place.

    Hadn't thought of these, but you make a convincing argument.


    You certainly add far deeper meaning to the scene than I could ever catch. I think I agree, but you left out one of my questions:p...
    "Why did Yoda not follow up on the pain he sensed Anakin feeling, and Anakin only confide in Palpatine?" It seems like a glaringly obvious mistake for the Jedi to make.


    Well said again, I don't know what to add. On this subject, "Dreams pass in time" is a line that comes to mind. I do find AOTC has the surreal feel of the other movies, it's just less consistent in it's execution. You paint a vivid picture of your perception of it, I just wish I could see it more easily and appreciate it on the level you do.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, Apr 30, 2013
  11. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    I think it's more to do with Padme's senstorial career than with Anakin remaining with the Jedi Order.
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That makes even less sense, why would being a senator preclude her from marriage?
    Dredalus likes this.
  13. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Yeah, I'd understand the Jedi council, but I'm sure there's nothing against senators being married. It would be more sensible to get married and tell the council and say deal with it or you lose me than hide it and ruin your life.
  14. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Huh? Dude, she's a senator. According to the dialogue, senators and Jedi aren't allowed to have relationships with each other. I never said she couldn't marry someone else.
  15. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
  16. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    I dislike the dialogue.


    Like, almost all of it.
  17. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2013
    star 4
    I liked the Mace character...he's a no nonsense 'lets just short this **** out' type of guy....there's enough Jedi in the movies who would like to sit and meditate over the galaxy's problems.

    Mace has a lightsaber and just wants to use it!...Hopefully his Force ghost makes an appearance in the new films
  18. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I didn't like the animated 3P0 bit in the factory. Though I love the sequence otherwise.

    Someone mentioned the "then we'll have to be extra careful" line by Obi-Wan. Guess you missed the joke there - wry and dry Lucas at his best.
  19. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I never got the impression that the marriage or affair was the issue so much as it was the fact that Anakin was a Jedi.

    What I mean by that is that the Jedi serve the Senate and can be sent (as is seen in TPM) to mediate disputes between member parties -- in this case, the Trade Federation and the people of Naboo, both of which have a Senator.

    If Padmé married Anakin, she would likely have to stop playing a role in politics or he would have to stop being a Jedi. Otherwise, I think it's highly likely that there would be political repercussions. She could be, for instance, accused of trying to bias the Jedi in favor of Naboo whenever disputes arose. Or using her strong personal connection to Anakin to influence the Jedi's decisions. Either way, I think that the very fact that the Jedi serve the Senate would make any relationship between a Senator and a Jedi seen as a conflict of interest.

    That was always my take on it anyway.
  20. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah I was just being silly. I agree it had more to do with Anakin's being a Jedi, though Padme was pretty wedded to her career so I'm sure that didn't make it easier either.
  21. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly. I'm glad somebody understood me.
  22. Vespasian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    My least favorite SW movie is Attack of the Clones.

    No wonder, George didn't spend too much time writing it. There should have been more script overhauls.

    The biggest problem by far is Anakin. I could never relate to him in this movie and it hurts Revenge of the Sith too. He's arrogant, whiney, cruel, impatient, and commits a hideous mass murder! Women and children too... RotS tried to rectify this by showing a kinder, funnier side of Anakin, but it had too little time. AotC ruined it.

    The romance was cringeworthy, but this also boiled down to Anakin's unrelatable character. I much prefer the way RotS and The Clone Wars went with the character of Anakin.

    Also, I could see from the beginning of AotC that George put on a straightjacket after the poor reception of Episode I. I like Episode I, because it's a carefree adventure, it never tried to be the same as the older films. Episode II is more gloomy, angsty, there are more fights and it is full of needless references from the Original Trilogy. Did we really need to see the Death Star plans in this movie? They don't come back in RotS. So why include them? Or the father of Boba Fett who is basically the same character as Boba Fett, but somewhat more competent?
    Last edited by Vespasian, May 5, 2013
  23. Obi-Wan21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2002
    star 4
    My least favorite aspect of AOTC was the needless cuts of Anakin & Padmé's relationship blossoming on Naboo. Those cut scenes do wonders to elevate the scenes and awkwardness of the actual film. The film needs to be watched with the cut scenes.
  24. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    Why would you want the DS plans in ROTS when you get to see the real thing at the end of the movie?
    Last edited by Visivious Drakarn, May 5, 2013
  25. HevyDevy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    This sums up my feelings basically.
    Last edited by HevyDevy, May 5, 2013
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