Lit Things you don't want to see in the future EU ever again?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Slowpokeking, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Thought and expected, not just from the OT but all Lucas statements, Vader is meant to be a tragic hero, its classic archetype.
    Tragic Hero's have to be hero's first before they fall to darkness and who are then redeemed. Otherwise they are not hero's at all but merely villains who have a last second change of heart and the audience do not care when they turn good.

    I do agree with you partially about the story. I felt (and still do) that from a strictly story telling potential the PT could have been greater than the OT. It wasn't but there are reasons for that, which if you listen to the Directors Commentary on the PT films will be obvious.
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 14, 2013
  2. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I judge it off life experience where plenty of times you see the best of friends become the greatest of enemies. Their friendship was strong, and I believe the PT actually shows that minus Hayden's failed attempts at showing any range of emotion. However, when you witness your good friend that your trusted, believed in, and eve protected go off and kill all your other friends along with a bunch of children, well that is going to change things. Considering what Obi-Wan saw how can you not be surprised he would have any trouble seeing good in Anakin?
  3. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Thats cool mate, I didnt think you were a jerk or anything and I agree with you especially with your thread.
  4. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Glad we are all on the same page. So you an EU fan?
  5. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Really depends on the book. Some EU stories are great, others are pretty awful. Using Zahn as an example. I loved Zahn's, Thrawn trilogy and think it still holds up even today . OTOH I hated his book Allegiance and thought it dire self indulgent garbage. Like I said it depends on the book
  6. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Allegiance was kind of the I love you Mara book. I do have a signed copy of Choices of One. Needless to say however, I think X Wing is always a classic as is I, Jedi
  7. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Basically yeah it was a long winded love letter to his own charachter.

    I actually enjoyed Choices, even if the plot made no real sense (Esva's plan still has me :confused: ) but having Thrawn warn Palpatine about the Ewoks and tell Vader the rebels are on Hoth, was so bad it was funny.
  8. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    If they turned to be great enemies and didn't have any affection left, that means their friendship is not strong at all. We can look at Ulic and Cay, that's what great friendship is. Padme saw all these and almost got killed by Anakin but she still believed there is good in Anakin. Luke never saw the good Anakin, only the evil Vader who killed Obi Wan and almost killed him in the battle of Yavin, kidnapped his friends and wanted to lure him to the Dark Side, but after he knew the truth he still believed there is good in Vader. Obi Wan's friendship, is weak compare to these.

    Also it's not really Hayden's problem, GL thought it this way, and he explained it in the movie, I think the movies presented it well.

    Anakin was not found by Obi Wan, but Qui Gon Jinn, it was Qui Gon who found his talent, helped him to get free and decided to train him as a Jedi. Obi Wan supported the council's decision and said such thing when Anakin was aside, he accepted Anakin as his padawan only because of Qui Gon's last wish. Anakin got free and became a Jedi all because of Qui Gon, thus Qui Gon Jinn became the greatest figure, a father figure in Anakin's heart. Sure Obi Wan trained and fought alongside him but he could not replace Qui Gon, and his words in EP I left some gap in Anakin's heart. Palpatine, at the same time, tried to play a "friend and mentor" role to Anakin, this also weakened their relationship. Then there is love, since it was what dragged Anakin to the Dark Side, it must be stronger than his friendship with Obi Wan. All these caused their relationship to break.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 14, 2013
  9. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    True but OBI1 is still AWESOME
  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I really think people shouldn't blame Hayden too much, he played what Lucas told him to do and did a good job in EP III. The problem is that Lucas' idea of Anakin is very different than many people.
  11. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    True let us not forget that Padme delivered some flat lines... Then Portman won an emmy for Black Swan...
  12. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Personally I have found Hayden to be awful in everything I have seen him in, but I don't want to get off topic since that is besides the point.

    I see where you are coming from. I personally think the friendship was still there. Nothing in your quote from George says there was not a friendship, but rather his love for Padme was stronger than his friendship with Obi-Wan. Add to that, if we really want to get technical, in Obi-Wans mind it is highly possible he felt the best thing for his friend was to spare him form more pain by having him die. Obi-Wan felt his friend, and really brother, was more machine than man. Was he incorrect? Clearly yes. We have the clear benefit of knowing the story at the end though. We cannot possible expect Kenobi to have such foresight. Maybe he was a rotten friend at the end-game, but I still stand by the fact that there was a time where they were close friend and that Kenobi believed that with all his heart. Look out how Alec delivers those lines, and you cannot help, but assume as much. Kenobi is just as different and as complicated of a characters as you mention Anakin to be I think. Easily two sides to the coin.

    Again though I see where you are coming from, and certainly do not feel you need to agree with my viewpoint.
    Last edited by Fleab88, Jan 14, 2013
  13. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I just think Lucas is more of a story teller than a director... As long as the story got told he was happy.
    Manisphere likes this.
  14. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I think George is an ideas man but needs someone to tweak those ideas to make it right. Especially in regards direction,dialogue and editing.
    Having a charachter declare that only Sith deal in absolutes (itself an absolute anyway) before declaring Palpatine is evil, needs a good test reader in jmo.

    I believe the original TPM script did have Obi-wan find Anakin and decide to train him, Im guessing that when he only changed it when he got Liam Neeson on board. But thats just a guess
  15. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    No blame can be given to any actor in the prequels. Lucas could have done interesting things with Hayden and Anakin. For the most part he didn't. You try saying, "I wish that I could just wish my feelings away!" and sound credible. Poor guy. Wasting a whole movie having Anakin as a 9 year old. And poor Jake Lloyd. Portman really is a spectacular actress but you try making Padme an interesting character. Lucas doesn't know how to write women so when he tries, like in AOTC, it just comes off like some tampon commercial. He was smarter with Leia and more economical. Samuel L. Jackson should be blamed for Mace Windu being the lamest Jedi ever? Samual L. Jackson is pure awesome yet Mace just wasn't.
  16. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Hence why Mace needs a movie when he was only a Jedi Knight...
  17. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Shatterpoint would make a great film
  18. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    While I love EU, I want original movies... Though could adopt the Korun backstory in Mace's story to be told in the film...
  19. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Again when you get lines like "A Sith Lord" and "The oppression of the Sith will never return" it's hard making them sound good.

    Lucas dialogue is kind of like sand. Its rough and coarse and get's everywhere ;)
  20. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Agreed but Shatterpoint is basically Heart of Darkness in Space, That basic frame could work no matter where or how it's set.
  21. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
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    With Portman I always thought it was a bit of well everything. From bad casting as the older wiser more mature wife of Anakin (they needed a Cate Blanchett type figure in jmo), to some awful lines and scenes you could tell she hated the whole experience and just wanted her contract to be up. Compare that to Ewan who hated the blue screen stuff but did his best anyway
  22. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    Which is why Ewan's Obi 1 stole the PT from everyone
    fett 4 likes this.
  23. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Ewan and Neeson were definitely the highlights of the PT. Everyone else... yeah. I'd honestly say that lies more in Lucas' directing, though. Portman is a good example; compare her performance in those movies with everything else...
  24. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Well I think they once were friends, just not as strong as some people thought and the PT did show their friendship. Yeah we have different opinion.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 14, 2013
  25. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Palpatine is the most well developed character in PT.

    The others did a good job on what Lucas told them to do.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 14, 2013
    V-2 likes this.