this is canon

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kayla', Oct 13, 1999.

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  1. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Far too much trolling for my tastes. I'm outta here for now. //escape pod
  2. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    Ah yes, the old fallback. When in doubt, call EU bashers trolls. :)
  3. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    And he stole my //escape pod! :p
  4. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "Ah yes, your tactic of using the "Where does Lucas say canon?" line to wind the canonists up, as stated in the EUDF, which I guess is because you can't argue this any other way except by annoying us."

    I can't help it if LFL quotes only seem to be valid when they support your POV. :confused:

    I can't help it if purists keep referring to quotes that Lucas has never made... ;)

    I can't help it if the truth of what I say annoys you. :D

    I'll gladly fall silent the moment someone presents me with verifiable evidence that Lucas has made any comment whatsoever about "canon." :)
  5. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    I can't help it if LFL quotes only seem to be valid when they support your POV.

    That goes for both sides of the argument.

    I can't help it if purists keep referring to quotes that Lucas has never made...

    I'm sorry, are you accusing me of posting an fabricated quote by Lucas?? [face_plain]

    I can't help it if the truth of what I say annoys you.

    Well, I rarely go into Lit to argue canon yet you come in here all the time to argue it. Who annoys whom the most, I wonder?
  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    In regards to your last post Commander Antilles, I don't use LFL quotes to define what is & isn't "canon." I rarely debate what is & isn't "canon" at all. Here's why:

    One faction says that ONLY the movies are "canon." Another says that EVERYTHING except "Infinities" is "canon." To attempt to determine who is right & who is wrong would require that you say which LFL employee trumps which other LFL employee. I'm not going to try and have that argument.

    To determine what is "canon," I turn to two sources: the dictionary and George Lucas.

    A definition paraphrased from a dictionary states that canon is an officially recognized body of related works. EU is an officially recognized (by LFL) body of related (Star Wars) works. Until somebody can shoot that definition down, it works for me. also, by this definition "Infinities" is not canon because it is not recognized as being a part of SW continuity.

    George Lucas has said nothing on the topic of "canon." That's why I say that using the TV Guide quote is an attempt to put words in his mouth. The interviewer wasn't asking him about "canon," he was asking about BOOKS. GL has already stated that he considers EU to be a part of the Star Wars Saga, so it still fits in the definition of canon.

    And like I said, I rarely debate what is & isn't "canon." It's only threads like this, where "canon" is the actual topic of discussion. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

    EDIT: speeling :p
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Bravo, but it still won't convince them. It's like arguing with a brick wall. You're just wasting your time.
  8. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    I know of brick walls that have more common sense.
  9. Jedi_Bratzilla Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 1
    *shaking head sadly*

    This is truly pathetic. Is it any wonder EU fans have such a bad reputation?

    Canonists have to deal with this crap over, and over, and over... in a forum that is supposed to be for FILMS!

    And who's more hard-headed? Canonists, or those who keep insisting on chasing them down and rubbing EU in their faces?

    Btw, Commander Antilles and Padme Bra are FAR more tolerant of you than, say, other admins who will remain nameless are of canonists in the EU forums. Notice they haven't just up and locked these threads (which I desperately think they should be).

    You guys are truly the ones who want it both ways. We just want to get away from you... and you won't let us.

    You hate canon so much... you want to be part of it. I think that sums it up very well.

    Regards,
    Brat.
  10. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    This is truly pathetic. Is it any wonder EU fans have such a bad reputation?

    Canonists have to deal with this crap over, and over, and over... in a forum that is supposed to be for FILMS!


    Right you are. So we can talk about Coruscant, swoops, and Aayla Secura all we want here, as long as it relates to Episode II. Most discussion is done in the EU thread, but in light of this news about Aayla, it can be done elsewhere.

    If you don't want to "deal with it", don't post in the thread, or don't read the responses.

    And who's more hard-headed? Canonists, or those who keep insisting on chasing them down and rubbing EU in their faces?

    If you visit Lit, we have just as many "Movie Purists" rub stuff in our faces. But we don't complain as much.

    Btw, Commander Antilles and Padme Bra are FAR more tolerant of you than, say, other admins who will remain nameless are of canonists in the EU forums. Notice they haven't just up and locked these threads (which I desperately think they should be).

    I disagree. PB and CA are the hardest-hitting admins against the EU, IMHO. If they feel that the thread should stay on topic, they can remind everyone posting here, lest it be locked.

    You guys are truly the ones who want it both ways. We just want to get away from you... and you won't let us.

    You sound paranoid.

    You hate canon so much... you want to be part of it. I think that sums it up very well.

    [Vader] I am canon [/Vader]
  11. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "I disagree. PB and CA are the hardest-hitting admins against the EU, IMHO"


    We have our opinions but it's not like we use our admin toys to silence Euers or force our opinions on you. I hate this stupid thread and this whole debate but there's obviously a demand for it so I'm leaving it open for now. I created the EU threads in both PT forums and I don't allow outright flaming on either side. So I don't like EU and don't think its canon. I don't think that affects my ability to moderate.
  12. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    George Lucas has never uttered the word canon. But here are two relevant quotes

    "I don't even read the offshoot books that come out based on Star Wars"

    "Those happen outside my little universe"

    As I said before, we don't CARE what what you think is 'canon'. What George Lucas acknowledges is all that matters to us in the MOVIES forum, becuase George Lucas is the be-all and end-all of the MOVIES. If Goerge Lucas is going to base a background character based on an EU character for the sake of killing it off, then so be it. It's a design, and as I've said before it's not the art designs that make the EU suck. Those can be quite good. But it's the story and the characters that make the EU suck, because those things disrespect the movies. That's why the EU has no place here, and that's why I'm willing to bet that George Lucas specifically said the stores are outside of what he's doing. So just go away, because George Lucas is making Episode II, not the EU authors.
  13. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    If Goerge Lucas is going to base a background character based on an EU character for the sake of killing it off, then so be it.

    I think it's too early to say whether she will die or not. And for Lucas to add her in just to die...is absurd.

    It's a design, and as I've said before it's not the art designs that make the EU suck. Those can be quite good. But it's the story and the characters that make the EU suck, because those things disrespect the movies.

    Those are all opinions. Not fact. Making it irrevelant.

    That's why the EU has no place here

    It's related to Episode II. This thread exists for discussion on Aayla Secura.

    So just go away, because George Lucas is making Episode II, not the EU authors.

    No one ever said they were. But if Aayla Secura never was created in the Ongoing comics, she would likely never be in the movie, as that character or another blue Twi'lek.
  14. Crimson-Larko Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 4
    George Lucas has never uttered the word canon. But here are two relevant quotes

    "I don't even read the offshoot books that come out based on Star Wars"

    "Those happen outside my little universe"


    Huh? ?[face_plain]

    I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused. What exactly did GL say Raz? Because I've seen two differant versions of that quote:

    "Those are done outside my little universe."
    and
    "Those happen outside my little universe."

    The second one I've only seen once. In your quote. Which one is it? Because both can be interperated very differently. So could I have a link to that TV Guide interview (if any exist)?

    But it's the story and the characters that make the EU suck, because those things disrespect the movies.

    How so? Explain how they disrespect the movies...
  15. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    If he explained that, it wouldn't matter. Everyone has different tastes about Star Wars - both the movies and spin-off books.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    What I think is bad, is that everyone is getting bent out of shape of some films and books. No body is telling you to accept our views. We're expressing them. The only way to end this is to close all threads and warn us not to talk about it here. That includes any future references that the films may make. Be it outright or sutble. It's really sad to see both sides argue about the dumbest thing ever.

    If any of you think those books disrespect Lucas' vision, then you need to get a life and stop obsessing about them. Just like the rest of us have to stop obsessing about this stuff. The movies are the one true canon. That's never been in doubt. But the books are just as vaild, regardless. For Lucas, Star Wars films are it. For everyone else that cares, the books are a part of his universe. Plain and simple. That's what the quote is all about.
  17. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Raz Zaphon: "What George Lucas acknowledges is all that matters to us in the MOVIES forum"

    Then you're acknowledging that George Lucas LIKES the EU, and considers it to be a part of the Star Wars Saga? ;)

    Ummm...Bratzilla...how do we "hate canon" so much? :confused: Speaking only for myself, I don't like the notion of "canon" because it implies some sort of moral superiority that I don't think that any Star Wars faction has a right to claim. The Star Wars Saga is not some kind of holy writ.

    However, while we're debating what stands as "canon" and what doesn't, I still look to the definition I've used, namely that from a dictionary. I don't see this "hatred of canon" that you say that completists have.

    Also, no faction can claim that the other is more "hard-headed" than themselves. I've seen some pretty serious hard-headedness on the part of purists, just as with completists. I've called both types on it.

    Also, I've seen a few cases where movie purists charge into the EU forums with "inflammatory" topics as well. That's not chasing people down, that's having a discussion in the relevant forum. Likewise, "tolerance" is in the eye of the beholder.

    Like I've said, no Star Wars faction as a whole has a credible claim to moral superiority.

    Sturm, I've personally found that PadmeBra has "mellowed out" someone in his stance against EU material, even to the point of "sponsoring" an "EU Allowed" thread on the PSA forum.

    Also, "I think it's too early to say whether she will die or not. And for Lucas to add her in just to die...is absurd."

    Again, I'll have to disagree with your assessment. It wouldn't be absurd at all for her to be added just to be killed. Remember, this is part of Palpatine's plan to wipe out the Jedi. It is actually quite logical for the "blue-skinned female Twi'lek Jedi" ;) to be killed as part of that plan.

    BTW, this thread sank a long time ago, until an admin resurrected it...
  18. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Sturm, I've personally found that PadmeBra has "mellowed out" somewhat in his stance against EU material, even to the point of "sponsoring" an "EU Allowed" thread on the PSA forum.

    True. Speaking of that, I outta bump that thread soon. There's been a ton of good discussions on Episode II material, just not in the proper EU thread.

    Again, I'll have to disagree with your assessment. It wouldn't be absurd at all for her to be added just to be killed. Remember, this is part of Palpatine's plan to wipe out the Jedi. It is actually quite logical for the "blue-skinned female Twi'lek Jedi" to be killed as part of that plan.

    Well, I mean...I don't think Lucas is adding Aayla in JUST to show her killed, and JUST to appease haters of the comic books. The current estimate is that 70% of the Jedi forces on Geonosis are killed, and that's quite a number.
  19. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Ah, OK. Just so that we understand each other, eh Sturm? ;)
  20. trinto_duaba Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2001
    star 3
  21. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
    how could this get lost ?

    hehe ;)
  22. Darv_Thader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 1
    Wow, now a thread openly devoted to EU bash/gush bs (although I see it was started in '99!)

    My only PROBLEM with EU (I have read a little - Zahn mostly, but am not a big fan) is not that it exists or is not "canon."

    The embattled EU fans say "hey, WE enjoy it so just let us be" and they have every right to say that. It is when, in the MOVIE forums, someone not only offers an EU explanation to another user's question (which I don't mind inherently - the more knowledge the better), but then refutes OTHER peoples' ideas that are more, shall we say, conjectural.

    If a question (such as what was Grand Moff Tarkin's role in designing the Death Star) has not been addressed yet in the movies, then MAYBE the answer will conform to an EU explanation (if the answer is ever given in a movie), MAYBE it will adhere to someone else's wild speculation, or MAYBE neither. The question may NEVER be answered canonically, in which case, if you care to believe the EU explanation, so be it but DON'T FORCE IT ON OTHERS. Those of us who have a more narrow view of Star Wars don't refute the EU's right to exist or anyone's enjoyment of reading it. Just remember that in the movie forums, it is not the Bible.

    That's all. End Rant.//
  23. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Wow. This WAS a rather long-running "canon" debate-thread, and it's quite interesting to peruse, in places.
  24. darthsidious32 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 4
    I might as well put my two cents worth into this whole topic.

    Canon: The movies, and any Star Wars material that does not contradict the movies. The movies are the final say of what's canon and what's not in the EU.

    How in the heck did this topic last this long? :)
  25. Ben-Obi-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 1999
    star 3
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