this is canon

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kayla', Oct 13, 1999.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    it's stupid and pointless to argue that Lucas didn't "actually" think so-and-so up, so-and-so else did.

    Stupid and pointless my ass, it's FACT.

    And the only Canon I know is the one Pachelbel wrote, so stick it.
  2. Blake Glider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 1999
    star 1
    Canon=Belief.

    If you are a Roman catholic, you follow their "canon", while a Augustinian would follow their "canon".
  3. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    The only way to make "canon" apply to Star Wars is to bend it to apply to filmmakers as well. So "canon" as it's known by the rest of the universe isn't what we're talking about, apparently.

    Depends on the universe you're talking about. In the science fiction universe, particularly when dealing with shared worlds, "canon" has the specific meaning we're dealing with here: that which can't be contradicted by interpretations. And of course the whole point is to try and make predictions! That's the fun of it.

    I proposed on a now-locked thread that we add the term "baseline" to deal with the absolute, incontrovertible "facts" -- not novelizations, not screenplays, not radio plays, just what was in the film. Normally, that's what I'd call "canon," but the word seems to be have been used to refer here and there to things which GL still can contradict.

    Oh, and he can contradict himself if he feels like it, or if he changes his mind. What he can't do -- at least without serious explanation -- is contradict what has actually been shown on the screen (eg, if he's going to ditch the midi-chlorian explanation, however little I like it, I would require him to make a point of explaining himself; if an EU writer had made up the theory, I wouldn't care a whit whether GL even mentioned it).
  4. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    Solo dances on the graves of the Canon Guys.

    http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Interview/3567/solodance.jpg
  5. Kith Aris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 1999
    star 1
    Part of the proplem with the EU is the writers. All of them want to make some great, top of the list best seller series of books, so they have to keep trying to outdo others and to create all kinds of sensational storylines to get to that status.

    When Zahn wrote HEIR TO THE EMPIRE, he had the advantage that Lucas was there to tell him what he could and could not do (Zahn wanted Jorus C'Balloth to be a clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi-Lucas told him now way in hell). And Lucas threw a few of his own insights into the novel when he breathed life into it. As a result, it was roughly accurate to the principles of STar Wars. The same with SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE. The writer knew there was a gap between TESB and ROTJ. Knew that there were questions, like how did Luke improve so much between movies, how did Leia get that bounty hunter outfit, and even little details, like "the price we paid for that shield", or "when many bothans died to get us this information". He answered a lot of questions, stayed true to the timeline, did not create unbelievable situations and stuff, and most off all, did not write a book that would do what most of these other books have done: Make a book that makes it look like beating VAder and the EMperor was easy compared to everything else.

  6. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Part of the proplem with the EU is the writers. All of them want to make some great, top of the list best seller series of books, so they have to keep trying to outdo others and to create all kinds of sensational storylines to get to that status.

    I think this is true. They seem to use the little bits of the mythos (the uninteresting -- to me -- stuff like Boba Fett or Aurra Sing) in order to tell huge adventure stories. I think, in reading, I'd prefer to see the big mythos (the Skywalker family history, Obi-Wan, etc) used in telling smaller, more intimate stories.

    However, the professional writers are constrained in this in a way that fan fiction writers aren't. You noticed, I'm sure, the comment on the upcoming Rogue Planet that the author was "not allowed" to use Queen Amidala or several other major players; this is a pretty serious limit, and (again, to me) limits interest significantly.

    Well, rambling now...
  7. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    Nah. Leave the Great Ones alone. I'm still pissed with Chewbacca's death.
  8. dehrian Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 6
    Good thing I wasn't planning on reading that book.
  9. Blake Glider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 1999
    star 1
    Question. Why would you NEED any of the movie characters besides Anakin and Obi-wan? They would be pointless. Jedi don't hang around the jedi council all the time, and the queen, why the hell would she be in the book? He was restricted from using characters for a reason. Any characters form the movies besides Obi-wan and Anakin would take away from the story.
  10. What's that flashing? Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    Mainly I'm just doing this to test out the "quote" feature.

    In the science fiction universe, particularly when dealing with shared worlds, "canon" has the specific meaning we're dealing with here: that which can't be contradicted by interpretations.

    My dictionaries (I checked two of them) don't agree with that definition for "canon." The only definitions that come close are: "an accepted principle or rule," which we all know is moot, because nobody accepts the same things as canon; "a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms," also moot, for the same reason.

    Basically I'm in agreement with you, JediGaladriel. I think every prediction is valid, no matter what it's based on. That's the nature of prediction. If you say Anakin turns into Greedo and Amidala turns into Darth Vader, it's a valid prediction, because we just don't know.

    What can "canon" possibly mean when it's still being written? We can't read Lucas' mind, any more than we can read (insert your deity here)'s.
  11. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Flashing,

    Our point of disagreement about the word is that you're referring to its actual meaning, as per dictionary definition. I'm using it's in-genre jargon meaning, specific to a community that's not generally consulted by Webster's. I think most people in the community know what the word "canon" means in context, but argue vociferously over what is contained under it. Canon arguments are "Well, the EU says that the Clone Wars were fought against Mandalorians. Is that canon? Does Lucas have to follow it in the prequels?" (My answer, Not unless he happens to have a thing for Mandalorians, and I kind of hope he doesn't, but will resignedly accept it if he does.)

    I propose the switch to "baseline" to deal specifically with the movies themselves, things like "At some point, Kenobi will take the name Ben and move to Tatooine" or "Anakin Skywalker turns to the Dark Side and becomes Darth Vader." Those things really can't be altered, though the interpretations of how those things happen may be wildly different from currently accepted explanations based on EU and speculation.
  12. What's that flashing? Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    Fair enough. I've had about enough of the canon argument anyway. We're really not disagreeing on this, I'm with you on your take on canon and so forth, and how I'd react if things taken from offshoots made it into the next two movies.

    In those cases, I'll probably try to argue that Lucas was the originator of those things and they're probably buried in some 1970s manuscripts. Like Coruscant. Do we know where this idea originated?
  13. Kayla' Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 1
    <so this has turned into a 'real worth of canon' debate. at least it's not another 'dark jedi' debate. - kayla>

    <canon=definition/auxilliary files//priority order non-contradict/load:
    = screenplays [where movie mistake]
    = movie novelizations [where movie mistake]
    = radio plays [where movie mistake]

    <they're all words anyway - kayla>
  14. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    This is the biggest load of crap I ever read.

    Here's the true definition of Canon:

    IF IT DOES HAVE THE 'STAR WARS' LOGO ATTACHED AND LUCAS GETS A SHARE OF THE MONEY IT MAKES IN THE MARKET, THEN IT'S CANON, GODDAMMIT!!!

    Humpf.
  15. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    IF IT DOES HAVE THE 'STAR WARS' LOGO ATTACHED AND LUCAS GETS A SHARE OF THE MONEY IT MAKES IN THE MARKET, THEN IT'S CANON, GODDAMMIT!!!

    Clearly, that's not quite true. If Lucas decides to disagree with Timothy Zahn or Terry Brooks on something, I can't imagine that the mass of the movie-going public will say "Oh, you can't do that! That's not what the Thrawn trilogy says!" That's silly. Frankly, I think the authors should be allowed to contradict one another -- I'd love to see different takes on the SW galaxy.

    Canon is defined solely in terms of what cannot be contradicted in the movies, Acme. It has nothing to do with its worth or lack thereof, or what money goes into Lucas' pocket.
  16. WickedBothan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    canon (KAN en) n. early '70s American television drama starring William Conrad.

    Wait a minute. That's "Cannon". Sorry.

    Here we go:
    canon (KAN en) n. the works of an author that are accepted as genuine, or, an established rule; criterion.

    I imagine that's where the "canon" people are going. Although, I find it somewhat of a stretch to apply a religious/literary term to a film series.
    Can you say "taking this too seriously" boys and girls? I knew that you could.

    But EU does suck. No doubts on that.
  17. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    Kind of dialogue that Lucas will NEVER write, but the EU guys do all the time:

    "This mission you speak of, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Jedi Knight... about justice it is... or revenge?"

    "Master Yoda... please, I've heard this speech before"

    "Then hear it again, you will! Justice the fruit of compassion is! Revenge, the fruit of hatred! Revenge from the Dark Side comes! Surrender to revenge, and surrender to the Dark Side you do!"

    "Byt how am I to forge what Bin-Garda-Zon did to my father, and not hate him for it?"

    "Hate the act, but pity the being... lost his battle with the Dark Side, he has!"

    That's it. Clear, concise, saying lots with few words. Lucas is incapable of writing something like that.
  18. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Bothan,

    No, it's not silly to apply a literary term to a film series. Film is a form of literature, therefore literary terms are its appropriate jargon. You could have the canon of the Muppets if you wanted to argue a point about them. It's just a term used to designate what's genuine.


    ACME,

    You need to calm down. As has been stated several times, whether or no EU is canon has nothing to do with its quality level (though I dind't much care for the scene you posted, and certainly hope it gets better from there). This is not a debate about whether or not the EU is crap, it's about whether or not Lucas is bound by it in the next to movies. That's the sum of it, and the only reason to even debate canon. Tons of folks have good interpretations out there. But the reason to speculate on which ones are canon is strictly to assist in making guesses about the rest of the new trilogy. What can be used, what can be ignored, what's likely to be used/ignored? Just because a thing isn't canon doesn't mean he won't use it -- it just means he's not obligated to.
  19. Darth ACME Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 1999
    Calm down? What for? Sometimes a tantrum helps to shake things here and there. It's fun!
  20. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Oh, well, if that's what you're up to, whatever floats your boat.
  21. Saber120 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1998
    I really enjoy some of the EU and it shouldnt all be called BS.Alot of people dont think it is and find it nearly as good or as good as the movies.I can see however why alot of people say it is crap since over 50% of it is.

    I think that the best of EU is better than the phantom menace wich i think was good but didnt match up to the originals.

    People bring up this cannon subject often because they are worried about these stories not being taken seriously,considered BS trash that isnt starwars.

    Some of the EU would be alot better if it was rewritten and altered and i think the best stuff (wich little there is) we and lucas should seriously think about it being "cannon".

    Alot of other sci-fi suffer from this same problem,robotech has a major problem with this and they are continuously having polls on what should be considered robotech and what should be trashed,the debates never end.To bad star wars has now got a similer problem.

    [This message has been edited by Saber120 (edited 10-18-1999).]
  22. WickedBothan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    I think this is all a moot point anyway. GL has stated unequivically on more than one occasion - including an interview that I just saw this week - that he has NOT read ANY of the spinoff novels and does not intend to do so.
    Now, considering that ep.1 is history and the script for ep.2 is either done or at least nearing completion and GL STILL hasn't read any EU, I think it's safe to abandon all hope (or fear, as the case may be) that he will incorporate any of that crud into tha films. So everone can relax.

    I don't claim to be an expert on EU, but I have read Shadows of the Empire and Dark Force Rising along with some graphic novels, and I find them to be mediocre at best and Star Trekish blasphemy at worst.
    Even the novelizations of the 4 films are fantastically average, which should not be surprising since GL himself has testified that these pictures work like silent films - driven by music and action, not dialog. In other words, they don't translate well to the printed page.
    Perhaps the reason EU is generally considered to be crap is not because it is so inferior, but because it has no film that we've all seen to give it weight or substance.
    But I still say we should have a giant Nazi-style bonfire of all EU books and SOTE toys.
  23. Kayla' Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 1
    <they're just words - but they're below kida's. have to do something about that. -kayla>
  24. Blake Glider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 1999
    star 1
    Actually WickedBothan, Gl has read the Thrawn Trilogy and Shadows of the Empire. He even went as far as saying that he thought Shadows of the Empire would make a good movie. Now, LFL told Ann Crispin that LFL considers the EU canon..in the TRUE meaning of the word. Not what it has become associated with here on the forums. LFL considers the movies "official" and the EU "canon". Canon is a belief,nothing more, and I follow the EU canon. It is like being a muslum, you except the old and new testement, but add on the Koran as well. Then you have christians who believe in the old and new testament but don't believe in the Koran. I have the movies, and I also believe in the books.

    [This message has been edited by Blake Glider (edited 10-21-1999).]
  25. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Sheesh... guess that makes me a Jew. Oh, wait. Oops, I am.

    I'm sorry to hear that SOTE is considered good within the EU. A friend recommended it to me because of my interest in the Vader character, and I have to admit, while it's not as terrible as, say Splinter of the Mind's Eye, it doesn't exactly hold my interest much either. I'm mostly doing a Jedi mind trick on myself to finish slogging through it. I really had high hopes that it would change my mind, because I trust the person who recommended it. But it just hasn't quite gotten there. It feels Trek-ish. Especially Guri and Xixor.

    Oh, well.

    [This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 10-21-1999).]
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.