this is canon

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kayla', Oct 13, 1999.

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  1. WickedBothan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    Well Blake, I wish I could remember where I saw that interview I referred to (was it here?), so that I could post it here. If anyone else read the interview I'm talking about, then you know what I mean.
    Unfortunately, all I can do is tell you that, as a response to a direct question, Lucas said that he has NOT read any of the spinoff novels. No ifs, ands or buts. If I find the interview, I'll be sure to post it.
  2. WickedBothan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    FOUND IT!!!!
    From the July 14, 1999, "Barry Norman's Film Night" interview that was posted right here at TFN on Oct.11:

    GL: "Yeah, I'm certainly not going to worry about that, and urm, the fans, they generate their own stories, their own ideas, they have their own fantasy life that goes around the movies and that's fine but I try to keep away from all that; I don't even read the offshoot books that come out based on Star Wars."

    That spells it out pretty plainly, I think.
  3. Kayla' Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 1
    <and they're still debating the virtual dark jedi. they should come by here, i'd show them a virtual dark jedi - kayla>
  4. Kayla' Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 1
    <and now i find this below both darth eric's and kida's threads. kida owes me big time - kayla>
  5. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    Here's my 2 cents. Those who enjoy the EU, keep enjoying it. Those who don't, continue to avoid it. I don't have a problem with either group. As to whether or not the EU is canon, yes and no. Because Lucas approved the continuation of the SW universe, it cannot be completely disregarded. However, since Lucas is working on the prequel trilogy that leads up to the original trilogy, and the original trilogy leads to the EU, no one should really worry too much about contradiction as these stories take place in completely different time periods. Those who want to see EU characters in the prequels are crazy. They want 'consistency' between the entire SW universe. Where would the consistency be if characters were shown in the prequels only to disappear completely throughout the OT to show up again in EU? That wouldn't make sense to me. Personally, I want to see George Lucas' universe in the movies. Since prequels have mostly been off limits to EU, George Lucas' vision is what the prequels should be.
  6. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    1. Part of growing up is accepting that death is a reality.

    2. I'd be able to say EU is crap if it wasn't for the fact that some it is kind of cool. On the other hand, a lot of it is worthless, watered-down crap. CRAP, I tell you!
  7. Kayla' Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 1
    <i just give the definitions. they're human definitions. they don't have to be logical - kayla>
  8. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    THE EU SMELLS STINKAWITH

    A poem by Emuboy

    EU is PU
    The Expanded Universe is crap
    I don't like it, because it is dumb
    Luke get married? Um, no.
    Kill Chewie?
    Way to go!
    "Lets keep Boba Fett alive so that we can make $$$!!!"
    The only cool guys are the one's that die.
    EU is PU
    CANON CANON CANON!
    Movies!
    Film Novelizations!
    John Lithgow as the voice of Yoda!
    Canon!
    EU is crap
    Lucas' main characters are all human
    Prince Xizor isn't human!
    CRAP CRAP CRAP!
    EU sucks.

    Thank you.


  9. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    If its not in the films, its a waste of time. Simple as that.

    And all those second rate `novels` are about as Star Wars as the dream I had where Darth Vader was chasing me, or the game of Rogue Squadron I was playing last night. (I finally got a gold on Moff Seerdons revenge, which has been annoying me for a while.)

    Lucas thought up and filmed Star Wars. Other people wrote about it.

    Anyway, what I want to know is; how `canon` is Behind the Magic, and interviews with Lucas or McCallum?

    If you want to get picky, my order would be;

    1) Films
    2) More films
    3) Screenplays
    4) Scenes filmed and left out (eg. Luke and Biggs on Tatooine, Qui Gon slicing the battle droid.)- as far as I`m concerned, they happened and were left out for reasons of pace and focus.
    5) Bits mentioned in interviews, books, CD ROMS etc. that are not from the novels.
    6) Novels, rumours, computer games, dreams.


    In case you hadn`t figured out, I don`t think much of the novels.
  10. Zaphod Beeblebrox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    The EU is CANON.

    Don't kill me please.

    My thoughts are that Canon is:
    1. The movies.
    2. The novelizations of the films, except where contradicted by the films.
    3. The radio dramatizations, except where contradicted by the films or the novelizations.
    4. The expanded universe, except where contradicted by the films, the novelisations or the radio dramatizations.

    MTFBWY
  11. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Zaphod Beeblebrox- Who knows what canon is best? You or George Lucas? Lucas has said that at best the EU is "official", not canon.
  12. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Zaphod Beeblebrox- Who knows what canon is best? You or George Lucas? Lucas has said that at best the EU is "official", not canon.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Zaphod Beeblebrox Is absolutely correct.

    As long as the EU stuff is not contradicted by the other stuff (see the many cannon descriptions above) then it is cannon.

    This is what Lucas has always said, so he would know better, but they are both right.

    He set it up that way so that the EU authors could write what they wanted to write, and if George wanted to finish his stroy (the prequels) he would not be tied by EU.

    Why is this so hard for some of you to understand?

    [This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 12-06-1999).]
  14. Thanos6 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 1999
    star 4
    Zaphod Beeblebrox! Is that you from the huge "Superman vs. Thor" debate at the WizardWorld debate? Hi!

    Seeing as how I lurk in the Literature forum all the time, I'm a stranger in a strange land, but I'll chip in my two decicreds.

    Why does everyone want there position to be validated? Why can't you just say, "I really like the EU," or "I despise the EU?" Why must you argue?

    Personally, I like the novels. In fact, the very best of them, I like more than the movies. No one will argue that some of them suck, but there's more than one diamond in the rough.

    If you don't like the EU, IGNORE IT! If you like it, SAY SO!

    But either way, please stop bringing up these endless debates! Canon is what you want it to be, not what some outside force makes it be!

    -Thanos6
  15. Darth Otarg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1999
    But either way, please stop bringing up these endless debates!

    If we didn't have endless debates, this place would get real boring. I don't know how anyone else feels, but I look forward to reading everyone's opinions.


    Canon is what you want it to be, not what some outside force makes it be!

    Well, I want my car to be a brand new Pontiac Grand Am, but it can't be just because I will it. You have to adhere to what is and isn't canon regardless of what you want.
  16. Darth Otarg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1999
    Sorry. Somehow I had a trilogy of extra posts.

    [This message has been edited by Darth Otarg (edited 12-07-1999).]
  17. Darth Otarg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1999
    My apologies.

    [This message has been edited by Darth Otarg (edited 12-07-1999).]
  18. Darth Otarg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1999
    My apologies.

    [This message has been edited by Darth Otarg (edited 12-07-1999).]
  19. Kabal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Here is what we all need to do: We need to sit down and write George Lucas or Rick McCallum a letter and ASK them what is canon and what is not. I believe we are pretty arrogant, and I am speaking about theforce.net here, when we come up with our own list of "what is" and "what isn't" canon based on our own beliefs of what it should or should not be. Seems to me that most people that say the EU sucks probably never took the time to even read any of it, or just happened to start reading them when "Children of the Jedi" was out on display at Waldenbooks. (therefore they were driven away screaming) They were probably the people who, in high school, bought the cliff notes for "The Scarlet Letter" (its only about 150 pages) and B.S.ed their way through the rest of the reading they were assigned.

    Still others make blind remarks and assumptions like "EU writers have no imagination and they suck." I've seen that on here countless times. But yet, any of them could probably not sit down and write 10 pages of a Star Wars story.

    Then there is the famous case of people making death threats to that one EU writer who did you know what to Chewie. (half spoiler, but I suppose everyone already knows...) Some people on this board actually used that incident (the Chewie one) to say that EU shouldn't be read.

    But then again, in our society of cell phones and microwave dinners and drive thru resturaunts and ATMs and faster computers and faster speed limits and on and on and on....its no wonder why people don't like them. For one, they don't read them. Second, they don't read them because they are not going to be able to finish it in that 30 minutes between Friends and Fraiser on Thursday night. People want it now, they want it fast, and they want it constantly. With a book, you have to sit down for several days, calm yourself, and actually delve into it. This is becoming a lost art. Its a wonder that movies, what with being 2 hours and all, aren't going out the window either. But research shows that visual stimulation keeps us interested.

    I am willing to say that this argument will never be settled. It will be like Duke and North Carolina arguing over who is better in basketball. It will be like the US and USSR in the Cold War. It will be like Giants and Jets fans arguing over who is actually the home team when they play each other (they play at the same stadium). No one is going to convince the other...this topic has no answer.

    Frankly, I'm tired of the EU bashing, but you know what, we are all going to have to move on and agree to disagree.
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Lucas has stated what is and what isn't cannon. I wish I had an article I could quote, but I do not.

    Here is what he said though (basically).

    1) Movies are (without a doubt) Cannon
    2) The scripts for each movie is cannon when they do not directly contradict the films themselves.
    3) The novels based on the movies are cannon when they do not directly contradict the cannon portions of the scripts or the films themselves.
    4) The radio dramas are cannon when they do not contradict the cannon portions of the novels, the cannon portion of the scripts scripts, or the films themselves.
    5) Everything else (EU as well as any technical reference book) Is cannon when they do not contradict the cannon portions of the radio dramas, the cannon portions of the novels, the cannon portions of the scrpits or the films themselves.

    I know it is hard to read with all those cannon portion bits, but here is an example to explain why they are there.

    Let's say there is something in a technical manual that is contradicted by an element of the radio drama, but is coroberated by the novel of one of the films.

    It would be cannon.

    Have I lost anyone with this?

    The reason there is a hierarchy of cannon, is because Lucas wanted other artists to be able to contribute thier own peices to the Star Wars universe, but he did not want to be bound by any of that as he made the films.

    He could have just denounced all other works as non-cannon, but as far as he is concerned, if it does not contradict what he plans to do with the rest of the trilogy, why shouldn't it be cannon?

    And there are good bits to the novels, the scripts, and the radio dramas that add futher depth to the films.

    It is not wether or not people like EU, it is just that this order is in place for freaks like us who need to know which source to beleive when they are in dispute.

    I personally do not read much if any EU. From the ones I have read so far, I have never felt like it was really SW.

    Of course, they are definately decent stories for the most part, but they are not needed to enjoy the movies, which is why I am a fan in the first place.

    I just don't understand why people need to fight over these rules of cannon. They are there and that's that.

    If you like EU thats great, I would just treat them like a slider episode when they are not cannon.

    And it is interesting to speculate how the rest of the prequels will tie into different elements of EU. But I wouldn't hold your breath.

    I would expect Lucas to do what he has had planned no matter what Zahn did. If he can also pay homage to EU stuff, he may do that.

    There was some sort of EU in TPM right? Who originally came up with Coruscant? Was it George? I thought it was first described in EU.

    There is just no need to get all huffy over this.

    I am so sick of people saying EU is invalid when it is not cannon. They are still valid, they just don't fit neatly with the films thats all really.

    They still have star wars stuff in them. It is not like SW is some sort of finite reality, it is a state of mind. Limited only by your own imagination.
  21. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    If all the novels (and the ones I`ve read are rubbish) are considered canon until they are contradicted, then whats the point of having something called canon? And no-ones said where Behind the magic, interviews etc. fit in yet.

    My thinking is that canon=Lucas was involved.
    EU=Everything else.

    Lucas writes Star Wars.
    Everyone else writes about Star Wars.
  22. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    I got the Star Wars encyclopedia last Christmas, and after looking through it, I know that I dont want to read any more of the novels, because I`m quite sure that the ones I havent read are going to be as weak, silly and unimaginative as the ones I have read.

    But, if you want to be told whether a lightsaber has a safety catch, or exactly what happened to some extra in a rubber suit that Lucas created but couldn`t be bothered to explain, then EU`s for you.

    Its nothing to do with the films I watch, though.
  23. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Well okay. If Lucas=canon, then Chewie dying is canon because he personally approved Chewie's death.

    #2) Lucas originally wanted to ditch the name Coruscant, but McCallum told him that he shouldn't do it because the name of the seat of government was already named in the EU and well established. Coruscant was created in the EU, approved as the name by Lucas when it first appeared, therefore it is canon. What difference does it make if GL contradicts something in the EU, he has directly contradicted HIMSELF for crying out loud.
  24. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    I for one don`t have a problem with Chewie dying. Partly because its in a book I`m never planning on reading anyway, and partly because everyone dies sometime. Its a shame some Chewie fans/maul fans/psychos etc. cant accept it.

    However, I do have a problem with pathetic ressurections ie. Emperor transports his soul to a clone etc.

    And considering how little Lucas talks about the books, his attitude to the books and the nitpicky details that get discussed to death (eg. lightsaber colours) there are a remarkable amount of things "Lucas said" flying around.

    When did he contradict himself, anyway?

    [This message has been edited by scott2eyez (edited 12-07-1999).]
  25. Kabal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Scott,

    If you have a problem with the Emperor "ressurecting" and all that stuff, you could possibly not like the prequels. I have no basis for this other than the fact that Palpatine said in Dark Empire and also was referenced in Darksaber that he has transformed his "soul" many times. Now, this could be a good example of what is and what is not canon: Lucas could come out and totally shoot this out of the water and not do a single thing with it, thus muddying the water on this topic. (which, IMO, is what will happen, because, though I like DE and all the EU, some of it DOES sound like Star Trek.)

    As for Behind the Magic, I would put that up there with the movies because, for one thing, it has Lucas on there doing interviews. It has the cast. It has all three movie scripts and stills to go with the script and TONS of information to go with those stills. Those who don't have it, I would say go get it! You could literally lose an entire weekend with this program!!

    Anyway, this is actually licensed by Lucasfilms, not just Lucasarts. So that, to me, puts it higher in the hierarchy of what is and what is not canon.
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