this is canon

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kayla', Oct 13, 1999.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jedimasterED Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 4
    Most of you will not recognize me. I am an avid EU literature fan and have taken an invitation to support the "EU is canon" side of the debat. I have, however, a "certain point of view" that will differ from others, I'm sure.

    The person who stated above that our need for validation is what drives these debates is right. There is an essential human need to be right. We want to be the one who is agreed with, the one who is vaunted for their wisdom and clear thinking, the one who becomes an authority about something, anything in life. These needs, all though they do exist, do not necessarily have to be met through convincing others we are right. In fact, one can satiate those basic desires with something called intrinsic rewards. If you think you are right and good, then that is all you need. Other people's praise and agreement will get you nothing more than potential detractors when your theory is proved wrong or perceived as insufficient. There are other sources of happiness and satisfaction than those around us. Now, don't confuse this with an admission that I do not stand for what I feel is right concerning other, more important issues. In my life, whether somebody agrees with my view of the Star Wars Saga is inconsequential, really.

    When we come to issues (ones that, in your heart, you feel 100% conviction about and you know there are others that will 100% oppose you) we must make a decision. Do we forever fight for what we think is right, sacrificing manners, respect for others, and common decency to be agreed with? Or, do we accept the fact that people will disagree with us, and turn our attention to other, more malleable minds? I for one am not going to be the being that changes people's hearts. The minds of those who aren't as certain is where I will focus my attention. We should present both sides and let that indiviual decide for him/herself. That is what is owed them, in all fairness.

    Those of you who believe the only canon material comes from the movies, novelizations, and radio dramas have what I consider to be a limited view of Star Wars. If you want to limit that, for whatever reasons, that is your choice. Just as it is my choice to open myself up to the stories and possibilities the EU provides. I like the EU; you like only the movies. We don't have to go blue in the face trying to force the other to like what we like because we like it so much. You have you view of canon, and I have mine. There is no need to argue in hopes of satisfying that need for the validation of our opinions. What has actually happened? What has not? It doesn't really matter. What actually happened is up to the individual to decide. In my extensive reading of the EU, no story element has out-right contradicted anything in the movies, nor has anything that is "iffey" been above my ability to rationalize and include it in my view of the Star Wars galaxy. That is how I've decided what is "canon," or more precisely, what I will include in my view of Star Wars. You might...no, you do see it differently. That's okay. We needn't banter back and forth over who is right and who is wrong. We should simply accept the fact that this is entertainment and nothing else. I am entertained by my view of the SW galaxy much more than by yours and vice vera for you, I'm sure. That's great. It's just entertainment.

    Let's refrain from insulting others' viewpoints and agree to disagree. No "I told you so"'s later on down the road from either side and no attempts to discredit the others' opinion with cut-downs and nit-picking of inconsistencies in our words. Let's move on, there are much more important things to debate in this life, much more.

    http://indigo.ie/~owenc/starwars/images/jedi2.gif jedimasterED
  2. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    Well, its all EU non-Lucas stuff, so I`m not too worried. I loved TPM...
  3. marmidala Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 1999
    Hmmm...I was invited here from an EU lover's thread in Lit to defend the EU, but this appears to be more of a debate as to whether the EU should be considered canon than about it's entertainment value. George Lucas has reserved the right to ignore the EU in the films, but you'd better believe none of that gets published and into the reader's hands without the outline being okayed by him. I personally don't care whether he acknowledges the EU in the films or not, I just enjoy the heck out of the books Hell, I like the old Marvel comic series, too, and it is most definitely not canon I love fanfiction too for that matter. I rely on the author's ability to convince me that I am really reading about the characters I love (and admittedly, a few EU authors fall short) not whether or not the stories will be considered the last word on what happens to the characters. Why limit myself to just one concept of a universe I enjoy when there are so many possibilities?
  4. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    I`m not saying it shouldn`t be enjoyed- if thats your bag then fine!

    I`d just prefer it if it was kept seperate from what I call canon- ie. Lucas` Star Wars. Otherwise, whats the point of having canon and EU?

    I don`t think that Lucas actually reads the books, but others do. Whatever... it makes him money, it keeps certain fans happy.

    So, like I said before, the split for me is films, screenplays, novelisation=Lucas` story=canon.
    Books, comics, fanfic=other peoples stories=about Star Wars= EU.

    Anyone disagree?
  5. JediMasterAlpha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 3
    But why should we change what we feel just because of what you consider canon? A conclusion that seems to have been long ago reached on the Lit forum is that canon is what you consider it to be personally. If you don't want to accept the books, then fine! If you don't want to accept the comics, fine! There are 2 facts to remember:

    1. Lucas has used things from the EU in the films.

    2. Lucas has, as far as we understand right now, contradicted things from the EU.

    This leaves the debate as to what will be in the next 2 movies wide open to all sources.
  6. Darth Mace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 1999
    star 4
    JediMasterAlpha, I think you summed it up pretty well. GL has used elements from the EU, and he has contradicted elements from the EU. Regardless of your definition of canon, I would be willint to bet anyone on this forum that what we see in the next to movies is exactly what GL wants to show us, whether it follows or contradicts what has been written by other authors.
  7. Kabal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    I will have to say that, at 83 posts, this thread has not turned into the mindless drivel that other EU threads have turned into. I can finally say I am proud of the people here for doing this in a somewhat organized and unflamitory way. That said,

    You all suck!!!

    Seriously though, I can't imagine die hard fans who wouldn't like some of the books if they just sat down and read them. Zahn is an amazing author. He has won the Hugo award before. That is a very highly touted award. He is by far the most talented of the writers. Some books are dumb, (I cannot consider Crystal Star Canon...it is really a Star Trek story) but for the most part, they fit the Star Wars label.

    I do, however, enjoy the movies so much more!
  8. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    No, no, Lucas said EU is NOT canon, even if it doesn't contradict the films. Lucas said EU is "official", but not "canon". Canon means it is 100% true. "Official" means it isn't totaly wack. The point is, you cannot use canon as "evidence" in most discusion threads, because a lot of people don't consider it true. But EVERYONE considers the films and film novelizations true. THAT is why THOSE are canon, and EU is NOT.
  9. TK421 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    Why define canon?

    It comes down to where this forum started. Mostly, this forum was for speculation about the prequels.
    This issue came up a long time ago, mostly as a way to agree on what could be used in an argument as a valid point. For the most part, it was agreed that the movies/books/radiodrams=canon rule was valid.

    Meaning:
    If someone speculates that "in Ep II, <such-and-such> will happen", and someone responds with "no way that could happen, because in one of KJA's books, <some-other-thing> happened", that this would be an invalid argument BECAUSE
    It has been stated that George Lucas reserves the right to contradict the novels.
    This doesn't mean that he MUST.
    This doesn't mean that he WANTS TO.
    This doesn't mean that he considers canon CRAP.
    What it does mean is that while GL did give writers the go-ahead on certain events and stories, it also means that if GL feels that his story needs to have <such-and-such> happen in it, regardless of whether KJA wrote a SW book with <some-other-thing> in it, he'll include it.

    The only real point of all this is to end the debate because it currently is full of useless arguments. Not stupid arguments. I'm not calling anyone stupid. But most of the points being made here are irrelevant.

    The one point that needs to be made.

    GL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CONTRADICT THE EU

    That, in itself, proves that the EU cannot be used as "proof" that something will or will not happen.

  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Emuboy, That is not totally correct. No, no, Lucas said EU is NOT canon, even if it doesn't contradict the films. Lucas said EU is "official", but not "canon".No you are saying this, not Lucas. If you are going to tell us what Lucas said, have the decency to get it right. Lucas siad that EU is "official" but not automatically cannon. He is saying that he approves the storylines, but he does not feel a need to support their stories with his films. He is simply reserving the right to do what he wants with the yet to be finished dual trilogy saga. Canon means it is 100% true.You got that right. "Official" means it isn't totaly wack.Right, see you do get it. It is only wacked when it is contradicted by the "Cannon Hierarchy". The point is, you cannot use canon as "evidence" in most discusion threads, because a lot of people don't consider it true.Yeah some people like to live in a limeted universe. That does not negate the validity of Cannon in a discussion. But EVERYONE considers the films and film novelizations true. THAT is why THOSE are canon, and EU is NOT.No, everyone considers the films to be the end all be all of Lucas' vision. EU is considered cannon unless it is contradicted by the "Cannon Hierarchy".

    Why is this so difficult for people to "get"?

    What? Are some of you embarrased for not reading EU? Do you want to somhow justify your EU-less fandom?

    If that is your problem, then don't sweat it. Although I consider much of EU cannon, I certainly don't really read any.

    I don't feel the need to make people feel like losers because they enjoy a wider spectrum of the SW universe. No one is better than anyone else either way.

    So let it go. Enjoy what you like out of life. Discard things you fell aren't as important. We all have our priorities.
  11. Joel Hodgson Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 1999
    I think I'm going to shoot Go-Mer-Tonic out of a canon.
  12. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Look, all I am saying is that you cannot use the EU in arguments in threads because it is able to be contradicted. We're not talking little contradictions, like between the radio plays and the films, we're talking BIG one's, like character names and birthplaces. The fact is, Lucas has seen the movies. Lucas has read the film novelizations. Lucas has heard the radio plays. Lucas has NOT read the EU. The basic plot lines are approved by Him, so long as they aren't atrocious. (i.e.- he would not aprove of Luke and C3PO being related, that's ridiculous)

    Besides, "Expanded Universe" would include the Holiday Special. So which is more correct, a novel that state's Chewie's homeplanet, or the Holiday Special that came first? The Holiday Special says he's from "Wookie Planet C". That's ridiculous, and we know it is. That is why EU isn't canon. Just because you like it doesn't make it canon. If it isn't in the films, novelizations or radio dramas, it just isn't canon. Canon is 100% sure. EU isn't. I'm sorry if you don't like that.
  13. Thanos6 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 1999
    star 4
    Those of you who believe the only canon material comes from the movies, novelizations, and radio dramas have what I consider to be a limited view of Star Wars. If you want to limit that, for whatever reasons, that is your choice. Just as it is my choice to open myself up to the stories and possibilities the EU provides. I like the EU; you like only the movies. We don't have to go blue in the face trying to force the other to like what we like because we like it so much. You have you view of canon, and I have mine. There is no need to argue in hopes of satisfying that need for the validation of our opinions. What has actually happened? What has not? It doesn't really matter. What actually happened is up to the individual to decide. In my extensive reading of the EU, no story element has out-right contradicted anything in the movies, nor has anything that is "iffey" been above my ability to rationalize and include it in my view of the Star Wars galaxy. That is how I've decided what is "canon," or more precisely, what I will include in my view of Star Wars. You might...no, you do see it differently. That's okay. We needn't banter back and forth over who is right and who is wrong. We should simply accept the fact that this is entertainment and nothing else. I am entertained by my view of the SW galaxy much more than by yours and vice vera for you, I'm sure. That's great. It's just entertainment.

    I knew it! I knew I couldn't possibly be the only poster who believes this! I'm not alone! jedimasterED, thank you!

    -Thanos6
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Joel Hodgson Welcome to the forums. 11 posts huh? Keep up the valid contributions.

    Emuboy, Look, all I am saying is that you cannot use the EU in arguments in threads because it is able to be contradicted.Yes you can. You can use it unless it is contradicted. We're not talking little contradictions, like between the radio plays and the films, we're talking BIG one's, like character names and birthplaces.Right, when they contradict, they are no longer cannon. The fact is, Lucas has seen the movies.We would like to think so. Lucas has read the film novelizations.Thats a safe bet. Lucas has heard the radio plays.Yeah and I think he liked them. Lucas has NOT read the EU. The basic plot lines are approved by Him, so long as they aren't atrocious. (i.e.- he would not aprove of Luke and C3PO being related, that's ridiculous)Plainly. Besides, "Expanded Universe" would include the Holiday Special.Yes it would. So which is more correct, a novel that state's Chewie's homeplanet, or the Holiday Special that came first?I think Lucas would put the Holiday special lower on the list, but I don't think it contradicts anything. The Holiday Special says he's from "Wookie Planet C". That's ridiculous, and we know it is.That is not ridiculous. The C in Wookie planet C, stands for Cashyyk (or whatever) it all fits just fine. That is why EU isn't canon.To your limited perception sure. Just because you like it doesn't make it canon.But if I like it, and it doesn not contradict the "Cannon Hierarchy" then it is cannon . If it isn't in the films, novelizations or radio dramas, it just isn't canon.Maybe to you. Lucas feels differently. Canon is 100% sure.Well, as sure as fiction can be. EU isn't.Actually, sometimes it is. I'm sorry if you don't like that.I could care less what your beleif sturcture is. I know what is cannon, Lucas knows what is cannon, and reasonable people accept that. You don't have to be reasonable. I could care less.

    [This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 12-07-1999).]
  15. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    You guys have the Lucas quote wrong, cause he said it isn't canon. Maybe we should petition TFN to write a letter asking GL to define canon for us.

    And the Eu calls Chewie's planet Kashyyyk, so the Wookie Planet C doesn't fit.

    It's obvious that the debate ISN'T a matter of what is right and wrong, so much as what the actual statement by Lucas is. We need to find that and a source of the quote.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg No, you need to find the quote. I have already seen it.

    Feel free to verify what I have said.
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Well, then the part where they call his planet Wookie planet "C", is not cannon. Everything else still is.

    Even Leia's singing.
  18. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Why me? We're both disputing it, only I mentioned it first. But I'll see what I can do.
  19. Lord Mauly Mall TFN/JC Banner Artist Team

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 7
    I got it! William Conrad!
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg I don't have to look it up because I already have read it. If I had it handy I would post it, but I can't seem to find it, and I am done looking.

    I know what he said, you don't. It is quite possible you are taking an isolated quote of his out of context, but this is for you to figure out.

    I told you how it is, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. I don't feel the need to prove it to you, cause most people have accepted this around here.

    [This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 12-08-1999).]
  21. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I think the fact is, there is no right answer. It's a matter of opinion, and for that purpose, I am going to drop the argument. If anyone else wants to consider EU canon, there is no harm in that, so long as they don't push it on me or anyone else that can't stand the blasted things.

    But I will say, that nobody disputes the movies. BARELY ANYONE disputes the film novelizations, FEW dispute the radio dramas. (They aren't much different than the film novelizations) But a lot of people DO dispute EU, and there is something to be said for that.
  22. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    I also pose this question: Could we have Star Wars without the stories told in the movies? No. But could we have Star Wars without the stories told in EU? Yes. EU is not essential to the Star Wars Saga, but the other three things are. (Well, the story told in the other three, at least) That's my thinking on the matter, and I urge everyone to think about that. But what you guys want to think is what you want to think.
  23. Moriah Organa of Alderaan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 3
    Actually it's very simple; 'Canon' the movies, novelization and Radio Plays, are what you have to accept. EU is optional, believe as much or as little of it as you like. I personally, after due consideration have elected to disregard the entire EU.
    I have begun a number of EU novels, I almost never finish them because they always feel 'wrong' not like Star Wars. Recently I figured out why this was. Lucas' Star Wars is not science fiction, it is high fantasy dressed up to look like science fiction. Think about it; Noble knights with mystical powers wielding swords of light battling black robed and armored Lords of darkness, a beautiful princess rescued by gallant young farmboy, a humble slave born with the power to save or destroy the galaxy - pure fantasy! EU on the other hand is pure science fiction, often very good science fiction, but not true to the Star Wars 'feel' at least in my opinion. That is why I do not like and choose to disregard EU.
    *But* that's just me. I certainly have no problem with those fans who *do* like EU and chose to include it in their personal SW vision.
    All Lucas really means when he calls his own work 'canon' and other authors work not is that he is free to disregard or contradict if his vision requires it. There for it is dangerous to speculate based on EU concepts as Lucas probably doesn't know them and certainly doesn't feel constrained by them.
  24. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 1999
    star 5
    Moriah Organa of Alderaan- I wrote my term paper on how Star Wars is fantasy, not science fiction. It's on my webpage, if anyone is interested.
  25. TK421 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    Hmmm, seems I've been ignored again.

    If it is true that GL reserves the right to contradict the EU, how possibly can EU facts be used in an argument about the new movies?


    The statement, Yes you can. You can use it unless it is contradicted, is a poor argument in itself

    Unless things have changed since last I checked, arguments are made using facts. As far as the "SW universe" is concerned, the only facts really are the films.
    By fact, I mean irrefutable. Not contradictable. Not EU.

    I happen to like a lot of it, I think it's pretty cool, I just don't see using it in an argument as valid.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.