this is canon

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Kayla', Oct 13, 1999.

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  1. Jorus_Kando Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    Nice quote, Merkurian :)

    Why so much hatred towards the EU? Yes, I poke fun at it, but honestly, it's more Star Wars stories. Some are complete clunkers (Anderson, I'm looking at you!) but others make worthy additions to the saga (Zahn, I wanna have your baby). Since when is having more to choose from a bad thing?
  2. TK327 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2001
    star 4
    Merkurian-Your latest quote is consistent with what I said in my last post. Lucas is only concerned with the EU in so far as he doesn't want it to conflict with his vision for the films. But he doesn't take the EU into consideration whatsoever when writing the films.

    I have nothing against the EU at all. I just think it's important to note that the films can be viewed as a stand alone element of the SW saga. EU artists add elements that are 'outside Lucas's universe'. There is no denying that.
  3. Darth Dradus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 3
    "got to love that guy"
    no, no we don't...
    Chyren exists in the Eu thierfore, Chyren=crap









































































    right right.. i'll stop now
  4. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    You're completely missing my point: what opinions Lucas has of the EU can be described as being at worst indifferent. At best, he gives the EU his explicit support & creative input.

    However, at NO point has he said that the Expanded Universe is or is not "canon."

    Since he's made no explicit comment on the topic of "canon" all that is left is for you to try and interpret what he's said in interviews & such, but it is just that: YOUR interpretation. Your interpretations get filtered through your own POV.
  5. GUARDSMAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2001
    star 1
    I have a quote from Star Wars Gamer #6 that might settle things down a bit. This quote is from a Lucas Licensing Editor named Sue Rostoni.

    "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

    Everything that isn't canon is all the Star Wars Tales comics and everything that has the Infinities symbol on it.
  6. Matthew Trias Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    The novel adaptions are not true canon.They are EU.

    The Ewok movies are true canon.They are over the EU.

    Everyone wants to forget that they are canon and that GL had a direct hand in making them.You can't do that. :p
  7. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well, I disagree that the novels are EU. I consider EU to be the original stories liscensed by Lucasfilm. The novels, while containing some mistakes, are adaptations of the films and should be considered canon unless they contradict the films. For example, the "rule of two" is a concept deveoped by the TPM novel but is considered canon and has been confirmed by Lucas.

    Anyway, the only point relevent to this forum is that no matter what you think of EU, whether you're a canonist or a hardcore EUer, Lucas doesn't take EU into account when writing the films. Therefore, using EU to speculate on the films doesn't work. That's the only thing we need to aknowledge for the purposes of this forum.
  8. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    No, that has been quite definitely disproven by Steve Sansweet. Go check his "Ask the Jedi Council" feature on the OS, especially where Chris Cerasi, a LF book editor, says how "canon" and "continuity" are misused.

    "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

    Everything that isn't canon is all the Star Wars Tales comics and everything that has the Infinities symbol on it.
  9. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
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    PB, I'd have to disagree with the "uselessness" of EU-based speculation because A)It's no less "useless" that pulling some barmy idea out of your arse and B)The Flanneled One seems to be taking an even more direct hand in prequel-era EU, so it's possible to use prequel EU to try and get a glimpse of what's going on in GL's head.

    As far as the LFL quotes, it's like I've been saying: we have one LFL person saying that everything but "Infinities" is "canon," while another LFL person says that only the movies are "canon." While we can all agree that EU answers to the movies and not visa versa, George Lucas has YET to comment on the subject of "canon" leaving the fans to cling to and/or interpret whatever LFL quote(s) that supports their POV.

    Although, there is this:
    "Canon [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>"

    Make of that what you will ;)
  10. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    Lucas: "Those stories happen outside my little universe."

    That's as much as he's said publically on the matter. It should be fairly clear from that what he considers canon.


    Strangely, I am still unclear. Where is the word "canon" in that quote?

    When asked if The Phantom Menace novelization would jive with the continuity of the Star Wars Expanded Universe novels and comics, Terry Brooks admitted that he had not read or otherwise immersed himself in the events chronicled in those books.

    Well, for some odd reason, he added the Brian Daley creation of the Z-95 Headhunter starfighter and the Troy Denning term for "Rodian" into the "prime canon" scheme ( the novelizations and radio dramas being just under the movies. )

    As far as the LFL quotes, it's like I've been saying: we have one LFL person saying that everything but "Infinities" is "canon," while another LFL person says that only the movies are "canon."

    Actually, Merk, all sources have actually agreed...They all say that it's all canon ( aside from Infinities. ) Even in pre-2001 sources, as Genghis recently posted that information on the subject from the Secrets of Shadows of the Empire book.

    The Sansweet quote in the Star Wars Encyclopedia says that the EU-based works are "quasi-canon" and the "Ask the Jedi Council" Cerasi quote ( not Sansweet, oh eagle-eyed readers ) says the films are "true canon".

    So, really, it's all canon. It's just that Lucas can overwrite stuff through his movies whenever he wants. And he has, more or less, with some things. Owen Lars, Clone Wars dating and character ages come to mind. But overall, I'm finding that the PT is fitting like a glove around most pre-1999 stories.

    As most literature fans ( who read spoilers ) know, the post-TPM stories are laying a nice groundwork thats fitting right into AotC. Del Rey has an amazing grasp on continuity in all of their works since retaining the Star Wars license.
  11. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    That also means that the "canon" source (TPM novelization) overrides the spy reports of the Lost Twenty.

    According to TPM novelization. The "Dark Jedi" who founded the Sith cult took FIFTY Jedi with him, while the spy reports say that only TWENTY have left the Order in its history.

    This is one of the reasons I consider spy reports to be little more than rumor & heresay until I see it on The Big Screen.
  12. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "PB, I'd have to disagree with the "uselessness" of EU-based speculation because A)It's no less "useless" that pulling some barmy idea out of your arse"


    I'd say they're about even. The difference being that a wild theory from a 'canonist' usually has a basis in the films, whereas an EU theory is based on, well, EU and is less likely to pan out since we've seen Lucas ignore EU time and again. The prequel stuff, I don't now about. I haven't read it but if Lucas really did work closely with the authors on it, then I'd hope that it would be accurate. Still, there aren't any guarantees.
  13. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    That also means that the "canon" source (TPM novelization) overrides the spy reports of the Lost Twenty.

    According to TPM novelization. The "Dark Jedi" who founded the Sith cult took FIFTY Jedi with him, while the spy reports say that only TWENTY have left the Order in its history.

    This is one of the reasons I consider spy reports to be little more than rumor & heresay until I see it on The Big Screen.


    I see what you mean, and you're right, from a certain POV. ( See, *I* can do it. ;) ) But personally, I'm still unclear as to what constitues a Lost Twenty "member", since we don't have enough information on it. Remember, it could be likely that any darksiders are not included. Aside from Dooku.

    I'm confidant that, if not sooner, we'll get some kind of EU-based explaination in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, due in fall 2002. Or, in the WotC Core Rulebook 2nd Edition, next May. It's supposed to have Episode II information in it.

    I'd say they're about even. The difference being that a wild theory from a 'canonist' usually has a basis in the films, whereas an EU theory is based on, well, EU and is less likely to pan out since we've seen Lucas ignore EU time and again. The prequel stuff, I don't now about. I haven't read it but if Lucas really did work closely with the authors on it, then I'd hope that it would be accurate. Still, there aren't any guarantees.

    Right. And I think what you've been meaning, PB, is that speculation based on certain sources is okay, for ideas and themes...but that, no, we won't be seeing little Mara Jade, Thrawn and Dark Jedi. That's how I see things also, and it bugs me when certain fans think this way.

    Some sources are actually good, because they work off of Lucas's unused ANH drafts and the novelizations. The rise of Palpatine and the fall of the Republic has been documented pretty accurately before TPM's release, in things like the Imperial Sourcebook, the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, and the rare novella of the Farlander Papers which came with early boxes of the X-wing game. Sometime soon I'll pull quotes from that, because it's extremely accurate in mentioning seperatists and planets that were taken advantage of and pushed to the side during the PT era, such as Naboo ( for example. )

    Edit - Here are some of the interesting quotes from the Farlander Papers, which were reprinted in the X-wing strategy guide ( 1993. )

    Mon Mothma : "The central authority of the Republic insisted on freedom for all, and prosperity naturally followed. But the galaxy is vast, and with a thousand thousand worlds to govern, a handful of greedy senators found that they could abuse their power. At first, this abuse manifested itself in small ways, but it grew steadily and insidiously.

    Slowly, corruption infected the Republic.

    More and more senators, seduced by power and wealth, allied themselves with special interests. Many worlds suffered, and eventually the Republic began to crumble. The authority of the Senate weakened at an alarming pace. Crime was on the increase across the galaxy, and many worlds threatened to secede."


    Hmm, "special interests" ( Trade Federation, Techno Union ), "threatened to secede" ( Confederacy ), "many worlds suffered" ( Naboo )...
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    All I've ever said about canon and the eu in the beginning was how character is portrayed. i.e., the reasons for Ulic Qel-Droma's fall are similar to Anakin Skywalker's. Both used fear for their loved ones. Which led to anger for failing to protect any of them. That led to hate towards the one(s) involved and the suffering for what comes as a result.

    That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's obivous that Lucas would go outright and use the eu in his films. What I've always meant was that, the eu is just as vaild and a part of Star Wars lore. According to Lucas, the films are all that matters to him. To the fans themselves, canon is what you make it. That's why I've always said that I do what I want, when I want and how I want to. There is nothing he, nor anyone else can do to change my mind. He can say what's canon all he wants, but he can't force me to accept those views. To me, it all counts in one form or another. To him, only the movies. Plain and simple.
  15. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    "Lucas: "Those stories happen outside my little universe."

    That's as much as he's said publically on the matter. It should be fairly clear from that what he considers canon."

    Strangely, I am still unclear. Where is the word "canon" in that quote?


    He doesn't. Just read the quote again and decide for yourself if he means EU is canon or not. Besides, given the way you take "true canon" to mean that the EU is really lesser canon or whatever, I guess you'd still find some way to claim that even a definition of canon from Lucas that named only the films, radio dramas, film novels, etc as canon still didn't exclude EU from being "canon".


    Actually, Merk, all sources have actually agreed...They all say that it's all canon ( aside from Infinities. ) Even in pre-2001 sources, as Genghis recently posted that information on the subject from the Secrets of Shadows of the Empire book.

    "All sources" wouldn't be one inaccurate remark from a certain Lucasbook editor, by any chance?

    All the quotes that matter, from Lucas on down, have made it clear that EU does not equal canon. Sadly, at least for EU fans, Lucasbook editors cannot decide what is canon and what isn't.


    The Sansweet quote in the Star Wars Encyclopedia says that the EU-based works are "quasi-canon" and the "Ask the Jedi Council" Cerasi quote ( not Sansweet, oh eagle-eyed readers ) says the films are "true canon".

    So, really, it's all canon. It's just that Lucas can overwrite stuff through his movies whenever he wants.


    That's good. How do you reconcile EU being canon with Lucas overwriting it when he sees fit? I don't ever remember Stackpole or whoever saying "Wait, you can't destroy what I said happens in the GFFA because what I wrote is canon!"
  16. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    He doesn't. Just read the quote again and decide for yourself if he means EU is canon or not. Besides, given the way you take "true canon" to mean that the EU is really lesser canon or whatever, I guess you'd still find some way to claim that even a definition of canon from Lucas that named only the films, radio dramas, film novels, etc as canon still didn't exclude EU from being "canon".

    This quote was explained ages ago. He's not talking about canon, or saying the EU is an alternate universe. What he appears to be saying, from my POV, is that the EU stories are not what he is focusing on when making the movies.

    For example, if I am playing videogames when I'm supposed to be writing a term paper, the latter is "outside my little universe".

    If the EU was declared to be outside of the movie universe, we'd be getting press releases, StarWars.com updates and Dark Horse Comics timeline notices. Surely with such a large change, the authors and companies which create the projects would know first, I think. ?[face_plain]

    All the quotes that matter, from Lucas on down, have made it clear that EU does not equal canon. Sadly, at least for EU fans, Lucasbook editors cannot decide what is canon and what isn't.

    Fans certainly can't. Lucas can, but he hasn't said anything. Therefore, the Lucasfilm Licensing workpeople are the next reliable source. And I won't be debating their level of canonity based on position held anytime soon. And I don't know what you've been readng, but all have said it's canon, with the movies being the one "true canon" source.

    That's good. How do you reconcile EU being canon with Lucas overwriting it when he sees fit? I don't ever remember Stackpole or whoever saying "Wait, you can't destroy what I said happens in the GFFA because what I wrote is canon!"

    That would be "continuity", not canon.
  17. GUARDSMAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2001
    star 1
    Well there is a differnece between him being able to overwrite the EU and him actually overwriting the EU. From what I've heard books couldn't be published in the prequel era because Lucas didn't want anybody messing with it. Now that his movies are coming out books can be published in the prequel era. Basically I think he wants everything to fit or else he would have allowed prequel books to come out, rake in all the money, then just ignore all those books so he can do what he wants. Unfortunatley things aren't that easy because Lucas actually cares what goes in and what doesn't. If he didn't care any author could have just killed off Luke Skywalker whenever they wanted.

    I'm not saying EU is canon and I'm not saying that it isn't canon. I'm just saying that as long as everything fits then there shouldn't be such a huge problem with, for example, finding Episode II spoilers in Cloak of Deception. If Lucas likes something enough in the EU then he might put them in one of his movies, if he doesn't like something in the EU then he just won't put it in, simple right?

    On a totally differnt note I'd like to ask if the lost 20 are Jedi Masters that have left the order and not just padawans or Jedi Knights? Because seriously I think a lot of padawans and knights have left the order, though that is just my personal opinion.
  18. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    This quote was explained ages ago. He's not talking about canon, or saying the EU is an alternate universe. What he appears to be saying, from my POV, is that the EU stories are not what he is focusing on when making the movies.

    Exactly. If EU was canon, he'd be writing AOTC and flipping through Heir to the Empire or whatever at the same time to make sure he doesn't contradict HTTE.


    If the EU was declared to be outside of the movie universe, we'd be getting press releases, StarWars.com updates and Dark Horse Comics timeline notices. Surely with such a large change, the authors and companies which create the projects would know first, I think.

    EU is an addon to the GFFA, licensed by Lucas so that fans who want more stories can have them without Lucas needing to write them. Lucas said that it would fit onto the existing GFFA (discrepancies notwithstanding), but that it would never be on the same level as the films, a position he has always stood by.


    Fans certainly can't. Lucas can, but he hasn't said anything.

    Lucas has. Just don't get obsessed with whether he says "this is canon" or not.


    Therefore, the Lucasfilm Licensing workpeople are the next reliable source. And I won't be debating their level of canonity based on position held anytime soon. And I don't know what you've been readng, but all have said it's canon, with the movies being the one "true canon" source.

    Yeah, sure....
    LF Licensing people take precedence over Lucas, McCallum, and Sansweet then?


    "That's good. How do you reconcile EU being canon with Lucas overwriting it when he sees fit? I don't ever remember Stackpole or whoever saying "Wait, you can't destroy what I said happens in the GFFA because what I wrote is canon!" "

    That would be "continuity", not canon.


    Ahh! Now we're getting somewhere. :)
    I can agree that only the films are "canon", and EU continuity. Can you?
  19. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    Whatever 'Canon' is does not matter. The EU are not the movies. These are the movies forums. Hence, the EU does not belong here. Not even used as speculation on George "it's outside my little universe" Lucas' new Star Wars movies.
  20. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Commander Antilles wrote:
    "All the quotes that matter, from Lucas on down, have made it clear that EU does not equal canon."

    And precisely what quotes from Lucas would you be referring to? ;)

    Raz Zaphon wrote:
    "Whatever 'Canon' is does not matter. The EU are not the movies. These are the movies forums. Hence, the EU does not belong here. Not even used as speculation on George "it's outside my little universe" Lucas' new Star Wars movies."

    So certain are you? ;) :D
  21. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    I really don't have anything to add. Lucas' actions speak louder than my typed words, and after his help in tying together PT era books by giving authors the AotC script ( which not even the actors see! ) and adding in small characters such as Aayla Secura, there's not really any way a sane person can keep saying that Lucas doesn't care. He does care. He just doesn't read the final stories or make sure his stories ( the movies ) are jiving with pre-established continuity. That's the job of his employees that oversee the books. Remember, the EU flows around the movies.
  22. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    And precisely what quotes from Lucas would you be referring to?

    I really don't have anything to add. Lucas' actions speak louder than my typed words, and after his help in tying together PT era books by giving authors the AotC script ( which not even the actors see! ) and adding in small characters such as Aayla Secura, there's not really any way a sane person can keep saying that Lucas doesn't care. He does care. He just doesn't read the final stories or make sure his stories ( the movies ) are jiving with pre-established continuity. That's the job of his employees that oversee the books. Remember, the EU flows around the movies.


    Lucas: "Those stories happen outside my little universe."

    It doesn't matter a jot how much Lucas lets authors tie the PT novels to AOTC or how many EU easter eggs get put into AOTC, EU is never going to be canon.
    Once again, except for explicit sex, violence, and swearing, Lucas doesn't greatly care what goes into the EU novels.
  23. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    star 6
    Lucas: "Those stories happen outside my little universe."

    Am I just extremely unobservant? I don't see the word "canon" anywhere in that statement. Nor did I read that the interviewer was asking him about "canon" when he gave that answer... :confused:
  24. Sturm Antilles Former Manager

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 6
    It doesn't matter a jot how much Lucas lets authors tie the PT novels to AOTC or how many EU easter eggs get put into AOTC, EU is never going to be canon.
    Once again, except for explicit sex, violence, and swearing, Lucas doesn't greatly care what goes into the EU novels.


    I'm not here to debate canon. Fact is, EU stuff is in these movies, whether they're big or small. You'll survive. I think. [face_plain]

    ::suddenly realizes he won't be learning anything new from CA anytime soon::
  25. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    // Lucas: "Those stories happen outside my little universe."

    Am I just extremely unobservant? I don't see the word "canon" anywhere in that statement. Nor did I read that the interviewer was asking him about "canon" when he gave that answer...


    Ah yes, your tactic of using the "Where does Lucas say canon?" line to wind the canonists up, as stated in the EUDF, which I guess is because you can't argue this any other way except by annoying us. :)

    I'm not here to debate canon.

    Why are you in this thread then?

    Fact is, EU stuff is in these movies, whether they're big or small.

    Agreed, but it will never make EU canon.


    ::suddenly realizes he won't be learning anything new from CA anytime soon::

    So? Do you expect that to surprise or offend me in some way?
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