..................Thou art God..................

"Thou art God" is from a Robert Heinlein book, called "stranger in a strange land". A very thought provocative book, which I highly recommend to everyone.

Here's my thing:

Lets assume that God is a reality. Atheist can also join, since my question is based on logics.
BTW Atheist are also believers....they believe there isn't a God.
Although neither camp can prove to eachother which is definately true, it boils down to belief on both sides.
Belief, objectively when talking to others, knowledge when addressing oneself, subjectively

So lets assume God is reality.

So we have God the creator, who created everything.
I assume god used godself to create everything.
If God created everything from himself, nothing is not of God.
If all is from God, it means that Humans are of God as well.
Since God is the creator, we are of God stuff.
We are in fact equal to God, as a bucket of water drawn from the sea, is the same water, but just infinitely smaller in size, but qualitatively made of the same.
We are not seperate from God, that would mean we are not of God's creation.
But there isn't a thing outside God, otherwise God isn't everything.

So the devil or Lucifer, is also from God, infused with God and cannot be something else than God.
Nothing would happen without the will of God, "not a single hair would move" to quote a saint.
So all that is "bad" is also God, since nothing is not of God. God is both "good" and "bad" as God is everything.

Now all of this is assuming there is a God as I started stating.

Is my logics sound?

If not help me formulate it so there is sense in my original statement "Thou art God", or not




DD - The God Spliff

 

I have two main disagreements with your postulation:

1. "We are in fact equal to God, as a bucket of water drawn from the sea, is the same water, but just infinitely smaller in size, but qualitatively made of the same."

IMO, a bit of a jump is made here from being created with the same sort of spiritual 'matter', and concluding that we are 'equivalent' to God...albeit smaller. I think we share the same emotional make-up, spiritual properties, etc., but I don't believe that we are imbued with the same power. If so, then we could create physical matter with but a thought. You could say we are of the same spiritual 'species', for lack of a better term, or in fact are a kind of family.

2 "We are not separate from God, that would mean we are not of God's creation."

I would counter with a more personal, physical comparison: my son (who is adorable btw) is a 'creation' of his mother and I, but he is separate from us. We share physical sameness, but have differnet minds and experiences. I cannot say how the spiritual world works, but I would think that a similar dynamic would be at work here.

 

I'd first like to point out that there is a difference between faith and belief. Religionists believe in God and have faith that he exists, whereas secularists believe that God does not exist, but do not have faith in that (secularism is a position of doubt, and thus, faith would be contrar to secularism).

Your logic seems okay. A bit convoluted... it would have been easier to say:

God is the Creator;
Therefore, he created both Good and Evil.

Which raises an interesting question:

How could a 'just,' 'good' God have created evil? (or, for that matter, still allow it to exist). Well, there are three responses to that.

1. He isn't good and just,
2. He didn't create everything, and is thus not all powerful, (i.e., Evil was created by someone/thing else.
3. He created Free Will, which allows Evil to exist.

Well, going through them one by one...

Christians would disagree with the first two (let me choose Christianity, as that seems to be the one which will probably be brought/has been brought into conversation), as they believe that God is both omnipotent and just. They offer the third one as a reason.

Which is interesting.

God is both omnipresent and omniscient, apparently. This should mean that he both knows what the future contains, and is there himself. So, in a way, we are predestined; while we may change our will, God, being the omniscient dude he is, will know the one we will choose in the end anyway.

So, if we are predestined, how do we have free will? We are simply following a path that has already been laid before us.

This contradicts, of course, the Free Will argument, returning us to the original points:

1. God is unjust,
2. God is not omnipotent.

Which is it?

- Scarlet.

 

God did not create evil.

Human beings are not equal to God, nor is anything that He created, whether the angels or the physical realm of the universe.

He loved his creation enough to give them free will. You cannot force someone to love you, if they are forced, then it isn't really love. It's a choice. The fallen angels chose pride and to be evil, God didn't create them that way.

God is omnipotent and omniscient, and also just. People can choose to believe in Him or not, and they choose their fates that way. God does not wish any to perish, but all to know and love Him. He is infinite love, but He is also infinitely just. All good things come from Him, nothing evil can come from God.

 

"I think we share the same emotional make-up, spiritual properties, etc., but I don't believe that we are imbued with the same power. If so, then we could create physical matter with but a thought."

Yes, I have only a small power compared with the sea, but some buckets have been bigger, Jesus being the obvious example. He healed walked on water and so on.
Others are also there, saints have been reported to float, yogi's(enligthened beings) been reported to be in more than one place. All amazing miracles. But to them this isn't unbelievable. We all have the same possibility as these amazing people, some where much more than others obviously, but we have the same inside.

This is still under the assumption.


"I would counter with a more personal, physical comparison: my son (who is adorable btw) is a 'creation' of his mother and I, but he is separate from us. We share physical sameness, but have differnet minds and experiences. I cannot say how the spiritual world works, but I would think that a similar dynamic would be at work here."

True from our level, but God is so much bigger yes, so that analogy won't hold on that level, otherwise the statement that God is all can't be true, we cannot be seperated from God, because is everything.




"God is the Creator;
Therefore, he created both Good and Evil. "

yes


"Which raises an interesting question:

How could a 'just,' 'good' God have created evil? (or, for that matter, still allow it to exist). Well, there are three responses to that."

Well maybe God doesn't operate on our understanding of Good and Bad!
But since we are all God, I decide what is Good or bad....for Me This may be in opposition to you and your "good" and "bad", however that doesn't make it untrue!
God is in all of us, so we continually decide what is good or bad. Those that say that there is a moral absolute, how can they know that on behalf of us all, unless they "communed" with God. And if so, God spoke to them, and not me! Jesus said the kingdom is inside of each of us, so I can't be told by others what my kingdom inside is!

"Christians would disagree with the first two (let me choose Christianity, as that seems to be the one which will probably be brought/has been brought into conversation), as they believe that God is both omnipotent and just. They offer the third one as a reason."

God is just, in HIS way, not ours, which is manifested to avail in the bible, when it says "the Lord works in mysterious ways"

"God is both omnipresent and omniscient, apparently. This should mean that he both knows what the future contains, and is there himself. So, in a way, we are predestined; while we may change our will, God, being the omniscient dude he is, will know the one we will choose in the end anyway."
Yes, beautiful said, this way we have free will, but is still predestined, as God knows all.

"So, if we are predestined, how do we have free will? We are simply following a path that has already been laid before us."

Yes, by ourselves, being God ourselves.

"This contradicts, of course, the Free Will argument, returning us to the original points:

1. God is unjust,
2. God is not omnipotent.

Which is it? "

Both perhaps.


I read in another thread, that wherever you are in the universe, the universe will seem to expand from your point.
This means of course, if I am not mistaken, that the earth IS the center of the universe, while at the same time the Moon is the center of the universe.
Conversely, all humans are the center of the universe...at the same time! How is this possible...because (ok bad argument, but give a little latitude ) we are all God, and God must surely be the center of all.
Gods gift is the free will to decide what is good or bad, God Loves us all anyways, whatever our choice.



"God did not create evil." then who did? Whatever is in the human is in the God "Man was created in the IMAGE of GOD"

"Human beings are not equal to God" Not quantitavely but the essense is the same

"God does not wish any t

 

God,- excuse of the weak since time began.

 

So toochilled, what do you think of the LOGICS of my statement?

Excuse for what?



DD - The Divine Spliff

 

Care to explain how people are weak because they believe in God toochilled?

People sometimes use God's name in vain as an excuse for their misdeeds. That is true.

However, many Christians went to their deaths in Rome for their beliefs, and were tortured. They did so with more strength and courage than anything that you can possibly imagine sitting in the comfort of your air-conditioned home typing at your computer desk.

Millions of Jews have died in holocosts, not limited to Hitler, and were sent into slavery many times by pagans.

Tell me again how God is an excuse for the weak?

Was Mother Theresa weak?

 

Remember that this thread is dealing with the statement that we are all God, not something else!

Please stay on topic.....same goes to myself of course!!!




DD - The Divine Spliff

 

''Was Mother Theresa weak? ''

Yes, when I last met her, shortly before her death, I gave her a swift kick to the leg and she toppled like a stack of cans in a supermarket isle.
{oh, you meant a different kind of weak ~ tis all off-topic anyway}

DD, the logics of your statement. Yes, you are correct, if God is all then we are all God and everything is God.
This is infact a very old interpretation of God, and can be seen perhaps best in Eastern cultures where the word 'God' was basicly a word meaning 'everything'.
It ties into the belief that the whole world is connected on a celular level, that we are all part of the same energy flow.
Arguably the split, philosophically, between Western and Eastern philosophies can be brought back to the stage where the meaning of the word God started to differ, between 'everything' on the East side, and 'a singular 'God' ''being'' on the West side.

A great introduction to this can be found in the excellent 'Sophies World' book by Jostein Gaardner.

 

"''Was Mother Theresa weak? ''

Yes, when I last met her, shortly before her death, I gave her a swift kick to the leg and she toppled like a stack of cans in a supermarket isle.
{oh, you meant a different kind of weak ~ tis all off-topic anyway} "

Good to see some sense of humor, I was getting "worried" about you toochilled LOL

"This is infact a very old interpretation of God, and can be seen perhaps best in Eastern cultures where the word 'God' was basicly a word meaning 'everything'."

Yes those in the eastern tradition, where of course influenced by their contemperory society, and what was the highest they knew? God was the word that covered everything. I have been studying yoga, and they call the highest "the absolute conciousness" or just the Absolute.

"It ties into the belief that the whole world is connected on a celular level, that we are all part of the same energy flow."

Did you see the movie "mindwalk", this is being discussed there as well, that everything is actually connected, through the atoms and such. So even on the physical level we are in fact one. So even those who doesn't have a God, must concede with modern science that we are one. Funny funny isn't it?

"Arguably the split, philosophically, between Western and Eastern philosophies can be brought back to the stage where the meaning of the word God started to differ, between 'everything' on the East side, and 'a singular 'God' ''being'' on the West side."

Meaning that God was something apart from us, yes?

"A great introduction to this can be found in the excellent 'Sophies World' book by Jostein Gaardner."

I can't actually remember that from the book, although it is a few years hence since I last read it.




DD - The Divine Spliff

 

The basic assumption that God is everything is flawed. I believe that God is "in everything" in that He put His creative will into the creation, the way a painter puts his creative energies into a painting. But the painter and the painting are distinct.

We humans are most certainly distinct from God: God has seemingly given us more than what He has given other things in the universe: an eternal soul, part of His ability to reason, and His ability to choose.

(And God IS free: He didn't HAVE to create us.)

Just because we have this gifts of God doesn't mean we ARE God. In fact, if we are truly free to disobey God, it means we ARE NOT God.

All this seems academic, except it resolves the seeming paradox: God created man free, man choose to rebel, hence evil is in existence DESPITE God's will and not because of it.


God is both omnipresent and omniscient, apparently. This should mean that he both knows what the future contains, and is there himself. So, in a way, we are predestined; while we may change our will, God, being the omniscient dude he is, will know the one we will choose in the end anyway.

So, if we are predestined, how do we have free will? We are simply following a path that has already been laid before us.

The answer to this problem is, we're not predestined.

Say you have a six-year-old daughter, who you know very well. You PRETTY certain that if you leave the kitchen, she will steal a cookie from the cookie jar.

You leave; she does steal a cookie. Does your knowledge that her actions WOULD likely occur make those actions partially predestined? I really don't think so: the fact that you're right makes you an excellent judge of her character, NOT a superhuman with the ability to partially predestine your own daughter's actions.

Let's further say that, somehow, you ABSOLUTELY know she will steal from the cookie jar - that you are omniscient at LEAST on this one issue. You leave; she steals. Does THAT make those actions predestined? Again, I really don't think so.

God's knowledge of future actions doesn't necessarily mean He predestines them: He would also HAVE to COMPEL us to perform those actions.


Yes, I have only a small power compared with the sea, but some buckets have been bigger, Jesus being the obvious example. He healed walked on water and so on.

By this analogy, Jesus didn't claim to be a bigger bucket: He claimed to be the entire sea contained in a regular-sized bucket.

 

hhmm, 'Mindwalk' - I havn't heard of it though I will make a point to look out for it since it is a subject I am very interested in.

 

Bubba_the_Genius: I was talking under the assumption that God was the creator.

But ok, lets look at that first assumption as you do.

If God is IN everything he still is everything, because God would then also be IN the atoms and so on.

"We humans are most certainly distinct from God:"
How? If we were made in the IMAGE of God

"God has seemingly given us more than what He has given other things in the universe: an eternal soul, part of His ability to reason, and His ability to choose."
That extra part is called conciousness afaik.

"(And God IS free: He didn't HAVE to create us.)" No, but he did, didn't he.

"Just because we have this gifts of God doesn't mean we ARE God. In fact, if we are truly free to disobey God, it means we ARE NOT God."
This is where I see a flaw in the reasoning, if we are God how could we not be free to deny ourselves? But what is the will of God? God's will is manifested through all of us.

"All this seems academic, except it resolves the seeming paradox: God created man free, man choose to rebel, hence evil is in existence DESPITE God's will and not because of it."
If God wanted it different he would change. He doesn't, hence it must be his will, and then of course Evil is part of God's will.


"God is both omnipresent and omniscient, apparently. This should mean that he both knows what the future contains, and is there himself. So, in a way, we are predestined; while we may change our will, God, being the omniscient dude he is, will know the one we will choose in the end anyway."

When we change our will God changes his, when God changes his will, we change ours, because they are interrelated. In our conciousness time doesn't exist, your conciousness doesn't get older, it gets more experience, but you/we/I don't feel a difference. I remember being 18, now I am 26, where was the time, both is present in my memory. I asked my dad, how old he feels, and he said he felt like he was still 20 and going strong, but his body couldn't do the same as before.

"You leave; she does steal a cookie. Does your knowledge that her actions WOULD likely occur make those actions partially predestined? I really don't think so: the fact that you're right makes you an excellent judge of her character, NOT a superhuman with the ability to partially predestine your own daughter's actions."
true I am not able to do that....yet, however should this be a problem for God?

"God's knowledge of future actions doesn't necessarily mean He predestines them: He would also HAVE to COMPEL us to perform those actions."

Well since he and us are the same, there isn't a problem now is there?

"By this analogy, Jesus didn't claim to be a bigger bucket: He claimed to be the entire sea contained in a regular-sized bucket."

Yes, he realized that his bucket was ALSO made of water, and through this realization, he BECAME the sea....although he already WAS one with the sea, he became CONCIOUS about the fact. When all is one, the sea bucket and water become one in the conciusness.

Yogi's call this realization for: "SELF-realization" or "God-realization" and is not only kept for special people. We all have the same in us, if we so chose to look for it! "ask and you shall be given" "knock and the door shall be opened" and "search and you shall find"




DD - The Divine Spliff

 

Assuming that God is a reality, then by what basis are people defining God? From that definition comes the perceptions and answers to the original question.

Unless anyone here has personally seen the Almighty, shook hands with Him/Her, and spoken with God about His/Her intentions and nature, NO ONE can say with absolute certainty what God is or isn't.

In one of my college religion classes, we discussed this topic, and I came to a conclusion: God is everything and nothing. God can choose what God wants to do and be. Given that, God could be omniscient and omnipotent and choose to limit His/Herself, for whatever reason - perhaps a vow to not get too closely involved with creation. Point is, God is God and can do anything God wants. So, perhaps it pains God more than we can possibly know that suffering and evil exists in the world, and God has restricted Him/Herself from intervening.

I also think that God's omnipotence is not quite "God knows everything that was, is, and shall be." I think it's more along the lines of "God knows every possibility of every choice we have to make, but doesn't know what the short term future holds until we make the decision."


In terms of us being equal in essence to God, but not in power, I would have to say that there is the possibility that we have more power than we know of. Just look at the human brain, 99% of which is a mystery. Perhaps in that 99% lies powers we didn't know existed - telekenesis, telepathy (perhaps a link to talk to God), etc. I agree that we are not as powerful as God. I also agree with DarthPhelps analogy between his son and himself and his wife. That is more likely, since we all have different minds, perceptions, and experiences.

I would, however, challenge the assumption that everything was made from God. Since God is God, could God not create something out of nothing? So, I think that the only things made "from God" are souls/spirits/etc. Everything else is made of something other than God, though God created it all.

In reference to Good and Evil, I could quote "The Devil's Advocate": "Free will. It is a bitch." I'm not saying that humans are evil, but we make our own choices. I don't believe in predestination, because it would belittle the meaning of our existence in the eyes of God. Why would God decide to create something, know how we're going to end up and every single bad thing we are going to do, and then do it anyway? Amusement? Entertainment? Perhaps, but I don't think so.

Since I don't believe in the devil or Lucifer, I would say that what God creates in purity can be twisted into evil: love, wood, metal, water, etc. By our means, not God's, do these become tools of evil.

Just my 2 cents.

 

On predestination...

Ok, first of all, God and humans are not the same. Every soul created is unique, as well as every form. Even identical twins have subtle differences that keep them from being carbon copies. This is a scientific fact. Now, I can't go back in time and prove that we haven't been reincarnated from previous souls or bodies, but given that evolution has a foward thrust to it, I'd assume this means that this uniqueness will continue on for the time being. And since God is omnipotent I don't think he lacks for imagination.

On free will and evil...

Yes, free will is a gift. It's what separates us from other life forms on this planet. I don't if anyone can dispute this, but does any other animal ever choose to end it's own life? I think something like the male praying mantis would be reticent to mate knowing how the females like to take command at the end.

Now, as far as evil is concerned, many things in this world are not inherently evil. If you saw a sizable rock on the ground you'd be hard pressed to judge it's goodness, but it could be used to bash someone's skull in. This is a learned behavior (certain other primates have picked up on this, I think) and over time we've exponentially evolved the way we end people's lives. The fact that we choose to create new weapons, among other tools of evil, puts the blame squarely on us.

It troubles me that people who don't necessarily believe in God would put the blame on him for introducing evil into this world, and not on the human capacity for violence and aggression. The logic short-circuits itself, IMO.

 

What is HOLY to one could be EVIL to another.

Like some have a problem with more than one spouse, but others says it's ok. WHO is RIGHT? Who holds the correct formula?.....BOTH and that means whatever is EVIL is what we CHOOSE to be evil.

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on your own point of view" -OB1 to Luke.

But since this is true for all of us, then all have their truth, which is just as viable as ones own. From where or what can we decide what is good or bad, except from ourselves.




DD - The Divine Spliff

 

"1. He isn't good and just,
2. He didn't create everything, and is thus not all powerful, (i.e., Evil was created by someone/thing else.
3. He created Free Will, which allows Evil to exist."

There's a fourth option, which not many people consider: God allows evil to exist so that we can grow stronger by overcoming it.

If God took care of all of our problems for us, we'd never grow, and never learn. Likewise if we'd never had any problems to begin with. I'm of the opinion that if God's up there, he wants us to... well, evolve, for lack of a better word, and learn new ways to deal with obstacles.

You might think of God as a kind of government. It's been said that the best government is the one that needs to govern least, and that may be what God is going for.

Incidentally, you'd be hard-pressed to find many Biblical references to free will; if anything, it seems to lean more toward predestination.

 

Bubba_the_Genius: I was talking under the assumption that God was the creator.

But ok, lets look at that first assumption as you do.

If God is IN everything he still is everything, because God would then also be IN the atoms and so on.

I too am assuming God is the Creator.

I believe we mean two different things when we say God is "in everything." I believe it means He put His creative energies in it, the way an artist put his energy into it. When you look at a van Gogh painting, you can see "the artist in it;" it's certainly distinctive from paintings by Norman Rockwell. But van Gogh isn't part of the canvas.

You seem to mean that God is literally in everything, and I think I know why: you may wonder, if those atoms aren't part of God, where did they come from?

My answer: nothing. I believe in creation ex nihilo, literally creation out of nothing. So, while the universe exists because of God's actions, the universe is still distinct from Him: it came to exist from nothing, He has existed eternally.

 

"There's a fourth option, which not many people consider: God allows evil to exist so that we can grow stronger by overcoming it."

Sounds plausible

"If God took care of all of our problems for us, we'd never grow, and never learn. Likewise if we'd never had any problems to begin with. I'm of the opinion that if God's up there, he wants us to... well, evolve, for lack of a better word, and learn new ways to deal with obstacles."

Yup, it's not like we don't know what to do about war and poverty, there is by far enough means to feed and nurture everybody on this planet, but for, probably ego-reasons, something is not letting that happen? All the material "evil" can easily be overcome if we so choose, as a planetary choice of course.

"You might think of God as a kind of government. It's been said that the best government is the one that needs to govern least, and that may be what God is going for."
Interesting idea, I like it



Bubba_the_Genius:

"My answer: nothing. I believe in creation ex nihilo, literally creation out of nothing. So, while the universe exists because of God's actions, the universe is still distinct from Him: it came to exist from nothing, He has existed eternally."

Have you considered that this nothingness from which the atoms came and such, is ALSO From the Absolute?

Thats what I like about that word. Because it covers everything from created to everything NOT created, all comes from that same source.

But I see that we choose to believe differently, but it is in my mind still true for both of us, since your view is also supported by the absolute. "ask and you shall be given"








DD - The Divine Spliff

 

"I assume god used godself to create everything."

This is proabbly where you're going wrong. You're assumign god follows the laws of physics and thus can not make something from nothing. However, if you've already stipulated god exists then saying he can only create somethign from something would put limits on his power. There is of course no emperical evidence either way, but the possibility god created something from nothing is equally plausible as he created everything from himself.

Second, god did not create good or evil. Good an evil are results of actions, they can not exist seperate from them. To suggest that good an evil are actual created things, is to suggest they're limited. That there are finite bounds of good and evil.
Furthermore, choice allow us to choose our actions. Those actions can be good or evil and the results can be good or evil, however having the choice isn't inherently evil. To pass off the beaten path,you could argue it is the soul that allows us to recognize the difference. Freedom of choice without a soul would leave us as animals just existing. A soul without freedom of choice would have us exist as if life was a carnival live, following a well worn track over and over.

As for the predestination question.
If there were no freedom of choice then you might have an arguement that god is unjust or evil, or whatever word you want. Because it would be he selecting our paths for us.
However if this were the case he never would have set up road signs. What the point of telling people to go left unless they have the option of going right?
That is, if everything was predestined there would be no need for religion. People would believe what was right without them and so they would be unnecesary.

 

farraday
I very much agree with your post. I do, however, have a question for you. Obviously, good and evil are not tangible things, most often the result of actions or intentions. How would you explain places that have an "aura" about them that is good or evil? Or do you not think that they exist (auras, that is)?

Something else that I asked earlier, which no one seems to want to answer, is "Where do your definitions or perceptions of God come from?" I feel that this is an important element to the discussion. If you have some sort of experience that you feel connected you to God, you have a very different perception than someone who gets all their ideas from just the Bible. And of course, if you are a member of a religion of the book, which? What God do you serve and how is that god portrayed in your religion. For example, even though the Hindus have in the neighborhood of 300,000,000 gods (one for everything), they are considered manifestations of the same supreme God (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Likewise, in Taoism and Buddhism, the "Ultimate" or "Universe" is God, so your perception could be that God is all encompassing (like Darth Dane has been expressing).

Personally, I've been a Christian for a long time, and I've read the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament, the Tao de Ching, and several other religious texts. I've also had experiences that cannot be explained, but have shown me some of God's qualities. Since I have a degree in Religious Studies, I have a different perception than probably most. My studies have lessened the grip of purely textual religions, but not to the point of destroying my faith, rather strengthening it. I have a pretty open view of religion, God, and humanity.

Does anyone else think these questions merit answers?

 

I think everyone one is forgetting something.
When it comes to discussing God, don't you think it's arrogant to think that we can hope to understand something that is so beyond our comprehension?

A simple analogy:

A man is programming a computer in a room. Also in the room is a spider.
Can the spider have any comprehension of what the man is? or what he is doing?
Of course not.

So why do so many people assume that they can possibly comprehend God?

Just because people don't understand or know everything, it doesn't mean that their is cause to worry or deny existence.

Stop trying to understand or second guess God.

All things come, to he who waits.

 

I'll restrict myself to answering the aura question since I don't feel comfortable enough with my knowledge of Eastern religions reply to your other question as it also relates to those.

Now Auras, before I start I'll confess I'm not much for mysticism.
In my opinion, aura's are a combination of belief and memories. As an example, for many people(myself included) churches are seen as calming places, places of refuge. However for someone a priest abused, the exact same place might be seen as a place of pain and betrayal. Different people can associate different feelings with the same place.
So in my opinion Auras are dependent on your individual perceptions.

 

God did not create evil.

Well, he has to have, or it wouldn't exist. Are you saying that God didn't create everything that exists in the universe?

He loved his creation enough to give them free will.

But, as I've shown, if God exists, we really don't have free will, do we?

Well maybe God doesn't operate on our understanding of Good and Bad!

This has to be one of the most wishy-washy retorts to the Epicurus/Free Will arguments. We know what God considers to be evil, as it is contained in his Holy Book.

God is just, in HIS way, not ours, which is manifested to avail in the bible, when it says "the Lord works in mysterious ways"

Oh... so Hitler was only evil from a certain point-of-view? God would have considered him good, obviously! (Otherwise, you'd have to concede that God created evil.)

Both perhaps.

I'm more inclined to go with

3. God doesn't exist.

...

Excuse for what?

Every evil committed in his name?

...

The answer to this problem is, we're not predestined.

Say you have a six-year-old daughter, who you know very well. You PRETTY certain that if you leave the kitchen, she will steal a cookie from the cookie jar.

You leave; she does steal a cookie. Does your knowledge that her actions WOULD likely occur make those actions partially predestined? I really don't think so: the fact that you're right makes you an excellent judge of her character, NOT a superhuman with the ability to partially predestine your own daughter's actions.

I am not omniscient. God is. He would KNOW, as that is his nature, whether I would take the cookie or not - by denying this, you are denying God's perfect power, which means he isn't omnipotent.

Consider time on an axis:


|-------|--------|
Past Present* Future

We are perpetually at *. God, of course, has to be at all three, or he is not omnipresent/omniscient (in other words, he is not God). Now, he is in the future, and he can see the action that we will take. There is no doubt, as, no matter how many times we change our minds, he will know which one we shall choose eventually. So, it is predestined. Our future is already laid out, and God is aware - therefore, we do not have free will.

God's knowledge of future actions doesn't necessarily mean He predestines them: He would also HAVE to COMPEL us to perform those actions.

He doesn't predestine them. We do. However, as they are predestined, and are unchangeable (i.e., even if we change our mind, the one that we eventually go to was the one we were always going to go for anyway), then we have no free will.

If God wanted it different he would change. He doesn't, hence it must be his will, and then of course Evil is part of God's will.

Making him evil himself (or, at least, capable of evil). It's a simple philosophical rule - like can not beget unlike. A perfect being cannot create anything but perfect imperfection, an entirely good being can never create anything but entirely good badness... God cannot create evil unless he HIMSELF is capable of evil.

There is also another interesting conondrum. According to the Bible and Christians, there is no task he cannot accomplish. But there has to be one, at least - he cannot kill himself. God CANNOT destroy himself, as God as invincible. This gives us a contradiction - he is both invincible (otherwise he would be imperfect), and he is omnipotent (nothing is beyond his power) - so, in theory, he can both destroy himself and he cannot, leaving us to conclude:

1. He can destroy himself, and he is not invincible.

2. He can not destroy himself, and he is not omnipotent.

Which one is it?

Yes, free will is a gift. It's what separates us from other life forms on this planet.

That's incorrect. Once you have two choices, and are free to make either, you, by definition, have Free Will. This obviously occurs on a daily basis for about every form of life.

It troubles me that people who don't necessarily believ