"Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved." - when does this happen?

Ryper: I agree, but for people who MUST have an explanation, here's the simplest one I have:

Owen could have thought this in retrospect. Sort of like...

Obi-Wan: Here is Anakin's child.
Owen: Where's Anakin?
Obi-Wan: He turned to the Dark Side and killed his wife, so I left him as a smoldering corpse.
Owen: Ah. He should have just stayed on Tatooine with his mother and never gone away with you and Qui-Gon.

That's probably the best explanation you're going to get, and if you don't like it, tough.

 

As I said before most people would not even notice anything "amiss" if they had not seen the OT first and had almost many years to make up their own backstory in their heads based on the very vague wording of the OT. Lucas wrote it in a way that he could give himself some wiggle room if he wanted to change his mind on some details. Changing your mind happens with even the best of writers, Tolkien even did it when he re-wrote parts of the Hobbit to suit his LOTR trilogy better.

If Kenobi had been more specific and said "When I first knew him in his 20s, He was already a great pilot" you'd have more of an ironclad case to have problems. Things were written vague to enough to have room for modifications.

Obi-Wan's casual reference to "Darth" as his first name come to mind

So what? It's a Sith title. Just as When Vader calls General Veers, just plain "General".

 

Wow. It's pretty desperate and extreme to push some "hatred" deal off on me where I have said NOTHING about hating ANYTHING.

"You don't say hate, but you imply it in almost every post."

That is untrue. Your outlook is extreme and therefor you need my post to be implied hatred to justify your stance against it. Shelly repeatedly told me what I hated without me IMPLYING or SAYING I hated ANYTHING. Since she sees anything less than flattering about the prequels as hatred, I don't need to say I hate it for her to interpret it that way. If it sounds like i'm saying somethings wrong with the film, she percieves it as hatred. It is an extreme outlook; one that you yourself aparently share. You said that I imply hatred "in almost every post" but you can't prove that true because it isn't. It's your extreme way of looking at my post.

"Having a warped veiw and lack of reasoning, you ASSUME, where nothing of the sort was said. TPM is when Obi Wan FIRST KNEW HIM. The two events of Anakin "piloting" (I guess driving a racecar and flying a jet are the same thing) in this film are absent of Obi Wan's
presense. Doesn't make it any less true that Obi-Wan did not see it first hand, his Master told him and what reason would he have to think his Master is lying to him? Especially after knowing what Anakin did to the droid control ship whether it be an "accident" or not. The racecar and jetflying analogy does not fly, Anakin was said to be the only human who was skilled enough to pilot a haphazard pod."

Yeah, ok, whatever. That's cool.

"Obi Wan says Anakin was ALREADY a good pilot; he didn't say someone TOLD him he was. Pretzels, please. I know they're coming. Can I get a hoop to jump through with that?
I'd take pretzels over your condescending demeanor any day. He said he was already a great pilot as told by his master and as evidence shortly after by himself. He didn't have to tell Luke every single detail, he kept it vague."

Yes, yes. Vague. That's the ticket. Welp, thanks, and good night.

 

He does not refer to Anakin specifically as "another pathetic lifeform." Qui Gon says he has some unfinished business. Obi Wan complains, half-jokingly, that he senses they've picked up another pathetic lifeform. He's referring to Jar Jar and hoping that Qui Gon hasn't decided to let another creature like him tag along.

Oh goody, insults.

Right.

A podracer and a racecar are nowhere near the same thing.

And?

Beg your pardon, but what exactly does that have to do with anything? You're complaining that Obi Wan didn't say someone told him Anakin was a great pilot. So what? Neither did he say, "When I first knew your father, I personally saw that he was a great pilot."

He says, "When I first knew your father, he was already a great pilot." And he was.

Seems to me that YOU are the one bringing in pretzels and jumping through hoops to insist that there is a plot hole.

Who would you like to say it?

So what? You have yet to show why it is necessary for Obi Wan to personally see it to make it true, or how his words in ROTJ demonstrate that he personally saw Anakin's piloting.

A podrace is not a racecar. It is a super-fast vehicle that hovers above the ground, and, as was demostrated in TPM, can actually fly pretty impressive distances above the ground as well. That is like no racecar I've ever heard of. You don't drive a podracer. You pilot it.

Um...AOTC? You know, the scene with Yoda training all the Younglings?

I disagree.

No, just about everything he says and does.

Not really. But if you wish to see it that way, I can't stop you.

 

This is getting personal. now kiss and make up.

 

I have apologized for what I said to Neobaggins. But just to make it clear: Neobaggins, I'm sorry I called you a basher, told you to move on and said that you hated the PT. I made a lot of wrong assumptions and what I said was out of line.

 

This is getting personal. now kiss and make up.

That'd be a first for Shelley.

 

Apology accepted, Shelley. I have to apologize also. My indirect responses were no better than coming right out and making personal assessments of you (and I did). I'm sorry. ROUND2!!! Just kidding.

I almost don't want to address the current response because of the downer mood that is now lingering. Well, I'll keep it civil and on target.

"He does not refer to Anakin specifically as "another pathetic lifeform." Qui Gon says he has some unfinished business. Obi Wan complains, half-jokingly, that he senses they've picked up another pathetic lifeform. He's referring to Jar Jar and hoping that Qui Gon hasn't decided to let another creature like him tag along."

Exzactly. Anakin. In the begining of the film they meet JarJar and later Qui Gon meets Anakin while Obi Wan is elswhere. Obi Wan senses that someone else has joined the group. Anakin has joined the group. Obi Wan asks why is it that he senses that ANOTHER PATHETIC LIFEFORM, the original being JarJar, has been picked up. So yes, he is refering to JarJar as the template for pathetic lifeforms and Anakin as an additional pathetic lifeform; Another one, making the group consist of, TWO, pathetic lifeforms. Obi Wan is getting a pathetic reading from Anakin's presense. Maybe because of his stature, his smallness, maybe because he's just left his Mother and is giving off a weak and pathetic sad reading, maybe he's still happy about the race and emitting a childrens goofy happiness that translates into a similar aura of JarJar. JarJar is like a big kid. I don't know; But Obi Wan senses Anakin and he discribes his feelings about it as a "pathetic lifeform". Qui Gon's response makes it clear that Obi Wan was refering to Anakin. He let's him know who Anakin is and that he should be respected for getting them the parts they needed. He checked Obi Wan for calling Anakin a pathetic lifeform.

"A podracer and a racecar are nowhere near the same thing."

True. I meant the anology within their respective worlds. A racecar being to a fighterjet what a Podracer is to a starfighter. I don't have an aggressively strong stance on this and only brought it up because someone was posing the Podrace/piloting as an absolute. I presented another angle for the sake of debate.

I don't dispute that Podracing can be labled as "piloting". I think if there was an effort on George's part to bring truth to what Ben said in ANH, it wouldn't be the Podrace but Anakin actually piloting the Naboo fighter. But as I posted previously, it was the "When I first knew him" and "Best star-pilot" that I was fusing together. They are two different exchanges in two different movies. He says in ANH that "He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy". This statement isn't bound to the limits of TPM. He could mean anywhere from ROTS opening spacebattle, landing the ship, or the ever popular OFFSCREEN.

We can argue weather or not this great piloting is depicted in any of the films (he only pilots a fighter twice in the trilogy) but if any of the piloting that he does onscreen are to mark Obi Wan's statement in ANH, it will have to be forced in. This is the type of thing I was basing my 'pretzel' comments on. It isn't clear cut and it requires a little obscure hole to try to squeeze this stuff in. Either that, or it happened offscreen. And for the record: Anakin Pilots the Naboo Fighter accidentally and Obi Wan isn't a witness to this event nor the Podrace. So, we can rule out that what he says in ANH is in regard to these events. Also, he nearly kills Obi Wan twice in ROTS while trying to save him with his great piloting. Process how you will. I'm just throwing it out there.

"He says, "When I first knew your father, he was already a great pilot." And he was."

That's not what he says but I think we can agree on what your getting at. I confused the lines just like you did. He says in ROTJ: "When I first knew your Father, I was amazed at how strong the force was with him." and in ANH "He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy".

"Seems to me that YOU are

 

Sorry to butt in, but I think your reading is way off here.
Obi-Wan is clearly being tongue-in-cheek.
You make it seem like he is using the Force to detect what is causing QGJ to head back and "senses" a pathetic lifeform.
The Jedi are humans, they do talk like humans and react like humans as well, you know. The don't rely on the Force for everything.
The only thing that makes Obi say what he does is this:

QUI-GON: "Start getting this hyperdrive generator installed. I'm going
back...some unfinished business. I won't be long."
OBI-WAN: "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form...?"
QUI-GON: "It's the boy who's responsible for getting those parts."

Obi-Wan does not specifically sense a "pathetic lifeform" using the Force.
He knows QGJ and what it must mean that he is going back using common sense.
He is basically saying: "We already have that clumsy Gungan, I hope you aren't going wasting time with another fool like him."

I'm afraid it's far more simple than some of you are making it.

Fact: Anakin is already a amazing pilot when Obi-Wan first meets him.
Fact: Anakin is already strong with the Force when Obi-Wan first meets him.
Fact: Obi-Wan was impressed enough with Anakin during the period in which he first came to know him to want to train the boy.

You can look for holes all you want, but they aren't there.
The PT does exactly what it needed to, regarding what is said in the OT.

 

Obi-Wan's casual reference to "Darth" as his first name come to mind

So what? It's a Sith title. Just as When Vader calls General Veers, just plain "General".

With all due respect, DINVADER99, Lucas is on record that he only thought of using "Darth" as a title for all Sith after ANH. I doubt he even had the whole "Sith order" thought out yet when he was shooting Episode IV. In any event, don't you think it's kind of strange that Obi-Wan would address Vader by using a title? He's not addressing him in the context of a military hierarchy (which, as you correctly pointed out, Vader does when referring to Veers ? it would be pretty normal for the military to address each other by titles), but as two former acquaintances. Vader doesn?t start the conversation by saying ?you should not have come back, master jedi . . .? so there is no reason why Obi-Wan would respond by using a title in that context. It?s out of place and awkward. It's pretty clear in the context of the duel that he's not using it as a title, but as his name.

 

I don't see it as out of place or ackward at all. I see it as rubbing the Sith title in Vader's face. I understand that wasn't the early intention, but it works either way.

 

I don't see it as out of place or ackward at all. I see it as rubbing the Sith title in Vader's face. I understand that wasn't the early intention, but it works either way.

That is my point exactly. It wasn't his first intention, but when the story changed, an explanation had to follow. Of course it could go either way. But that's only after GL decided that Darth should be a title. I don't think GL meant it as a title when he first wrote it, but now we have an explanation for it anyway (forced, in my opinion, but I see it). It just reinforces my point that there are no real "plotholes," it's just that GL changed the story to suit his whim.

 

Is it a case of Obi-Wan lying, or Lucas forgetting -- once again -- what he wrote? I have a feeling it's Lucas not having a way to explain it so he just hoped we all wouldn't notice.

Dude really shoulda watched the OT again before working on these films

 

Actually he trains Anakin because Qui-Gon asked him to, promised really. He wasn't training Anakin because he was impressed it was simply keeping a promise to his master.

 

Skipping whole thread. I'll answer the original question.

To think that Anakin should have stayed here and not gotten involved is a line that only requires an imagination to work. Uncle Owen believes that Anakin should not have gone with Qui-Gon Jinn to become a Jedi (thus 'involved' in the goings on of the universe). Despite not being in the story at that time, that doesn't stop him from having an opinion on what Anakin should and should not have done.

 

I don't understand what the confusion is about this.

There are any number of opportunities that Obi-Wan had in order for Owen to tell him that. But clearly it happened off-screen. I mean, can you imagine how awkard this conversation would be trying to put it on-screen? It would sound dumb.

 

People are very hard on the 'holes' in the new movies and rightly so. But this is not one of them. This is a line that easily makes sense if you just use your noggin. Even Obi-Wan saying that Yoda was his master makes sense, because let's face it Yoda is EVERYONE's master, he's the Sensei man! Obi-Wan completely neglecting to mention Qui-Gon to Luke? Easily explained - Luke never knew Qui-Gon and there's absolutely no reason to delve into that can of worms. Obi-Wan saying 'I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi'. Again, the line makes perfect sense because that's exactly what he did.

I think people need to focus on the lines that *really* don't work.

 

"Uncle" Owen wasn't even in the picture when Anakin went off to become a Jedi. Shimi was still a slave and by the time the dude bought her and married her Anakin was looooooooong gone. Owen's opinion pretty much means nothing.

That's like me saying I don't think you should have gone and bought whatever car it is you bought some 10 years ago or so. Neither one of us (me or Owen) has any say in the matter, we're not even close to being involved with the situation.

 

Oh please, Owen wasn't in the picture when Anakin left Shmi, but that doesn't preclude Owen thinking Anakin should have never done it, especially in light of what happened.

 

Neo, I guess your signature should read:
"If it didn't happen onscreen it did not happen."

 

The scene, enchanting as it is, hardly tells me how Yoda teaches all the Younglings to a certain age before they are passed off to another master, hence, when Obi Wan was a kid he was taught by Yoda before being Jinn's apprentice therefor Ben saying "Yoda, The Jedi who instructed me" is not a contradiction by the aspect of the never before mentioned Jedi who is plainly his master in EpisodeI. When Ben says Yoda was his Master in ESB there is a general and logical understanding that that is simply the case. It's not unheard of that the back-story would consist of new elements and things not exzactly as you picture, but I'm sorry, Qui Gon Jinn is a super wedge-in. He is truly out of left field and I can't really put my finger on his purpose. A completely new character was created and given the importance of basically being the main character, in the first episode, who is never mentioned in the existing films. Then, he dies, and his only contribution is being a part of a confusing and still unspecified ghost-trick; One he can teach but not perform himself. But thank God Lliam was in the movie.

Qui-gon was created because Lucas wanted to have the dynamic of the Master/Padawan relationship. One that was directly shown through the relationship of Qui-gon and Obi-wan. What Lucas wanted to show is the more appropriate version of student-teacher relationship, which becomes a stark contrast between Obi-wan and Anakin. He wanted to specify that their bond is a close one, that develops into a father and son dynamic. But it also goes back to the first draft of ANH, where Annikin Starkiller had three Jedi Bendu Masters throughout the story. More precisely, where Kane Starkiller tells General Luke Skywalker to continue Annikin's training, before he dies later in the script. So Lucas probably took this idea and expanded it's perameters. He has Obi-wan who is young and inexperienced. Probably not ready to take on someone like Anakin, but does so as a promise to his Master.

Plus, there's another of that tone poem that Lucas loves. The scenes that parallel to the OT. Qui-gon is killed fighting Maul, just as Obi-wan himself is killed by Vader. The difference is that we see Obi-wan prepare for death by raising his saber, closing his eyes and preparing to retain his identity. Qui-gon doesn't get to do that. He meditates, drawing on the Force before fighting Maul alone, but winds up being run through unexpectedly. Thus it looks like he cannot help Obi-wan, whereas Obi-wan can help Luke. It also works as it shows that Obi-wan has to overcome his fear, anger and hate, so that he can defeat Maul. So that he can give up his attachment to Qui-gon and move on. Which works because in AOTC and ROTS, we see that Anakin has trouble letting go, which shows the stark contrast between the two.

Qui-gon isn't mentioned because there's no need for Obi-wan to bring him up to Luke. He's cutting to the quick about how he met Anakin and what happened to him. Nor can Qui-gon help in Luke's training. That's for Yoda and Obi-wan.

"Uncle" Owen wasn't even in the picture when Anakin went off to become a Jedi. Shimi was still a slave and by the time the dude bought her and married her Anakin was looooooooong gone. Owen's opinion pretty much means nothing.

That's like me saying I don't think you should have gone and bought whatever car it is you bought some 10 years ago or so. Neither one of us (me or Owen) has any say in the matter, we're not even close to being involved with the situation.

If Anakin hadn't gotten involved with the Jedi, he wouldn't be dead. That's pretty simple, regardless of whether that opinion stems from TPM or AOTC.

Obi Wan saw that Anakin had slaughtered younglings before he made it to Mustafar. I don't know if he thought Anakin WASN'T lost before he said that, but I'm sure he knew Anakin was a little different. Vaders line in ROTJ "Obi Wan once thought as you do" is not conveyed in ROTS at ANY point and time in my opinion. This is another instance where a meaningful statement, played out in a key scene in

 

Personally, I don't even think it matters what Obi-Wan is telling Luke, because Obi-Wan is probably lying his ass off for the good of the cause.

 

WOW. People sure are looking deeply into this. I understand arguing over vague plot points or lines, but...

Did you guys, like, jump up from your seat in the middle of the theatre screaming: "WAITAMINIT! THAT DOESN"T MATCH UP WITH EPISODE 4! WHAT THE HELL!?!?!? I WANT MY 10.00 BACK! NOWWW!!!!"

Geez, take a few deep breaths...

 

True, but Obi-Wan isn't stupid.
He was going along with his Master's wishes - not blindly - but because he agreed with him, because he believed in QGJ and he believed in Ani and his skills.
Even at the end, Obi-Wan still confirms that he thought Anakin was the chosen one.

"You were the chosen one."

I've been thinking about that quote a lot (haven't we all).
A lot of people seem to think it confirms Obi no loner believes Anakin was the chosen one.
I disagree.
You don't "be the chosen one" - for definite - one minute then stop being him the next.
Obi's statement is definite - "You were the chosen one."
Not "we all thought you were the chosen one."
He is saying: How could you, even though I am sure you were the chosen one, have screwed the prophecy up so much?
You were the chosen one, you were supposed to do this, this and this - but it has come to this, I have had to kill you.
How could it have gone so wrong?

 

Obi-Wan never said that Owen verbalized his thoughts. He just said that what Owen thought. Obi-Wan probably knew how Owen thought, and never had to hear it.

Another possibility: Obi-Wan said that he would watch over Luke on Tattooine. It's possible that there was dialouge between the two of them as Luke aged. Example:

Luke is, let's say...3 or 4 years old. Obi-Wan comes over to check on him...

Luke: Who's is he, Uncle Owen?
Owen: That's Ben Kenobi. He lives out beyond the Dune Sea. He passes through once in a while.
Ben: Hello there, Luke. (followed by small talk, and Luke being sent off to do chores).

Ben: Owen, he will be ready for training very soon.
Owen: Training?
Ben: If democracy is ever to be restored, Luke must become a Jedi.
Owen: No, Luke will not be trained. You will not take him from us now.
Ben: The republic must be restored.
Owen: To hell with the republic. His father died serving the republic. Anakin should never have gotten involved with the jedi order. He should have stayed here, with his mother.
Ben: I must train the boy.
Owen: You are no longer welcome here. Leave us alone. Leave Luke alone.

Something like that, but with better dialouge, like the kind Lucas uses? (Nelson--ha ha!)