1. A Message For Everyone:

    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

Rebels Thrawn in Rebels

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by TtheForceHurts, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Vorax Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 5
    His actions on Rebels are certainly evil and on the side of evil. And he's certainly an active player of the evil empire. This more along the lines of Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him. Maybe the world of Zahn exists in its own alternate canon, and/or Thrawn of Rebels is the evolved state of the character at this time in thee canon.

    But I think its important to understand that Thrawn is a cold blooded user and killer. He's a soldier and warrior, one that is driven to succeed and damn the consequences. He's also a colonialist , imperialist, militarist. Whether he's working for the Galactic Empire(Sith) or his own Chiss empire or both. He could also end up killed by that certain evil evil Sidious or Vader for treason. No one can serve two masters. He's not someone all chivalric in nature and certainly no SJW. You're dealing with a ruthless military commander and someone who is amoral, he has his own ambitions and plans sure but they're far from noble. He's a still a literately antagonist and villain and unless he turns over a new leaf, they'll make him die like one as they did the so-called Thrawn Trilogy.
    Last edited by Vorax, Apr 18, 2017
    Dark Lady Mara and Vialco like this.
  2. SyndicThrass Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2016
    star 3
    The term "amoral" has been thrown around a lot here, but I don't particularly think it applies to Thrawn and I'm not sure that it really applies to many of the Star Wars villains for that matter. Amorality is a complete and total lack of a moral code or principles. Palpatine would be amoral, as there no grasp or notion of right and wrong with him and he only views the world in the most sociopathic sense where everything relates to what he personally wants. But a lot of the other major villains within the series are governed by their own personal views and beliefs of what constitutes right and wrong, even if those beliefs don't conform or align with the protagonists.
  3. Vana Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 4

    Well I'm not sure that Thrawn did really have time to check on the Noghri case right away when Vader give them to him. He went back quickly to the Unknown reagions and if I remember well, he really took "control" of the Noghri whole situation after Crisis of Faith, so just before Heir to the Empire.

    And Thrawn served Palpatine not because he agreed with him (especially about superweapons and such) but because he needed a fleet to reach his goal, defend the Unknown regions, and only the Empire could give him that. So of course he served an evil man but not because he shared the same view or ideals.
  4. PCCViking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2014
    star 9
    Although, they weren't supposed to kill her, only capture her.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
    Vialco likes this.
  5. Fallen Jedi Master Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2017
    star 1
    i wonder what his fate will be
  6. Tsago Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2017
    star 1
    Rukh!
  7. Fallen Jedi Master Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2017
    star 1
    you think they are going to have him die like he did in the old EU
  8. Darthur C. Clarke Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2016
    star 1
    I've always loved Thrawn. He's one of the best characters in the entire Saga, in my opinion. I have never cared for retconning him into some do-gooder who was willing to work for evil people to accomplish his aims.

    Is it impossible for people to like evil characters? The heroes are only as good as the villain they are up against. The fact that there are scenes that make you like and respect Thrawn are part of what makes him so scary as a villain. You can personally feel how this person can recruit people for evil ends, as you feel almost like joining him yourself. I feel as if this reaction that people want to like him makes the writers (Zahn mainly, whose work I adore, but he does favor his big characters a bit much) give him motivations that the reader can agree with.

    I like when villains have motivations I can understand, but not really ones I agree with. In my opinion, it discredits such characters and heroes; the difference between them is just one of initial circumstances from that perspective. Its like the bad guys just couldn't figure out a way to do good without moral compromise; and for a character whose main defining characteristic is intelligence, it demeans the character.

    It is our morals that separate us into 'good' and 'bad', i'll never believe otherwise. And since Star Wars is essentially a good vs. evil morality play, I'd prefer my bad guys not to be on my side philosophically.
    Last edited by Darthur C. Clarke, Apr 19, 2017
    Dark Lady Mara, Vialco and Padme501st like this.
  9. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 7
    Star Wars has slowly been ditching that in Canon. See Rae Sloane

    I like it a bit, but I think there is a good chance that it will be to much.
    Darthur C. Clarke likes this.
  10. Tsago Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2017
    star 1
    Not necessarily the same way, but at Rukh's hand. And not in Rebels for sure, but much much later.
  11. Fallen Jedi Master Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2017
    star 1
    ok good because for this season for all we know they my be meeting for the first time
  12. Tsago Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2017
    star 1
    Which would be weird considering how the override code for the battle droids was "rukh". Where did Thrawn get this word if he didn't know Rukh?
  13. Fallen Jedi Master Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2017
    star 1
    well i said may sorry forgot the a, if they knew each other before member Rukh was off doing something else.
  14. Rennzwerg Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2017
    star 1
    Yes, good point. At the time it was assumed it was another nod to the Thrawn Trilogy (although it did seem a bit too random). If that is the case, though, it would be a very awkward break with the Thrawn novel where the Noghri (or just Rukh) have absolutely no place.

    I can see Thrawn being introduced to Rukh in Season 4 (maybe as a special asset of the Empire - why he would need / want a bodyguard at this stage of his story is beyond me) but would find it odd if it was implied they knew each other.

    Unless there is some time between Season 3&4 when this is supposed to have happened (but again: why?).

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Maybe "Rukh" is a word in Cheunh, Thrawn's language - and he chose to code-name his bodyguard that, because it was a lot shorter than the bodyguard's actual name?
  16. Tsago Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2017
    star 1
    Yes, it's a good point. The word "rukh" could mean "guard" in cheunh.
    Darth Caliban and PCCViking like this.
  17. Rennzwerg Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2017
    star 1
    Just reading through some comments from Dave Filoni and the main voice actors on the next season. And I was wondering after reading this:


    “Thrawn in Season 4 is operating from a position of victory. He, in his mind, has really set back, and he's correct, the Rebel Fleet with a crushing blow. He's also tempered their aggressive tendency, which you'll see the after effects of all the way through to Rogue One, where you see their reluctance to actually fight on a bigger scale. It takes a lot to draw them out because they lost so big. (...)
    He's operating from a position of having total control of the fallout, and the Rebels in some ways have been deconstructed. They're trying to amass all these ships, all these starfighters, and one has to start to wonder what will ever be the point of that. Are they ever going to have as much hardware as Thrawn to fight him? Let alone his tactical genius?”

    (Dave Filoni)

    So, clearly no major space battles to be expected. More hit & run / guerilla stuff I guess.

    Story-wise, I just wonder why they would keep Thrawn stationed in that area if he thinks he has dealt them a major blow. Are there not other places in the Empire which would require the services of a Grand Admiral more?

    I know they want to keep him as Rebels villain and given the kind of show this is I suppose that is for some sort of come-uppance... But it just seems odd.
    Because how can they then portray him true to character if he never gets to do another space battle? That's what he excels at after all (supposedly).

    Then the article guess on to say it will all "come down to the will of the Force"... So more Jedi devilry to be expected as well?

    (Link to the article:
    http://www.blastr.com/2017-4-20/star-wars-rebels-season-4-decisions-and-consequences)


    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
  18. Vana Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 4
    Still, I'm glad to know that the reluctance to fight of the rebels in Rogue One is because Thrawn crushed so many of them a year before. But yeah, if he considers that he won, why would he stay around? Maybe to crush the mandalorians?
  19. MrDarth0 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2015
    star 1
    This whole debate whether Thrawn is an honourable/good man or an evil/amoral one reminds me a lot of discussions I used to have about some German military officers during WW2 :)

    Pretty much all the arguments made in this forum about Thrawn have been used to either condemn or redeem people like Erwin Rommel and Erich von Manstein in military history circles.
    Darthur C. Clarke likes this.
  20. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    He destroyed much of their fleet and drove them from their base. But he didn't capture any of them, which is what Tarkin really wanted. So these Rebels remain Thrawn's assignment and he's going to keep going after them. Thrawn did not achieve total victory at Atollon.
  21. Sandtrooper956 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2015
    star 4
    In my opinion, Thrawn isn't a good person. I mean yeah, he's got his redeemable qualities, but when it comes down to it he'll crush everyone in his path if he needs to. Maybe he has a sense of honor and respects his foes, but that doesn't make him any less of a killer.

    I'm currently in the middle of the Thrawn book, and honestly it's really making me like his character even more than I already did. You can tell he doesn't have bad intentions like some in the Empire, but it's the way he does things that's wrong. He manipulates and uses others for his goals, and will kill to get what he wants. He just doesn't want anyone to know that.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  22. Vorax Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 5
    Amoral and quite a number of those synonyms applies to Thrawn as a character as well as a stock villain/antagonist. On rebels he's clearly immoral and the typical military tyrant figure. Even in the EU when he could not figure out what made an enemy tick or tactically defeat an enemy, he'd destroy the whole planet and species/race and what have you. He's not a very pleasant fellow, very few villains in SW are especially when they're the main or secondary antagonist of the storyline .
    Vialco and V-2 like this.
  23. Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2014
    star 7
    Yes, but in Canon the novel makes it clear that he does not want to harm civilians so I don't see him destroying a whole species in canon
  24. Rennzwerg Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2017
    star 1
    Exactly; and this constant referral to Legends actions does not really help. It's more of an alternate universe because certain things that led to TTT are never going to happen and also some of Zahn's inventions are now invalid (e.g. ysalamiri, the cloning process leading to C'Baoth...). Plus, almost Thrawn's entire backstory was added quite a bit later and then adjusted a few times, so there are obvious consistency problems within Legends.

    Canon is what we have to go with and it consists of one very detailed book and one series of a TV show (which cannot go nearly enough into character background, especially for the bad guys). Canon Thrawn is pragmatic, and yes, ruthless when it suits his goals but not just because he gets a kick out of it. I think the novel has established very precisely what his motivations are and that he does have morals (at least at this stage of his life). That did not make him automatically a good person or a bad one. But from what we have in canon I cannot see how one could describe him as amoral in the true sense if the word.

    His motivations are not compatible with the Rebellion so he will try his best to defeat them.

    At the same time he is taking a gamble when joining the Emperor - to use his own words - which one could argue he indeed took and lost as Palpatine is using his information to seek out some of the "evil" in the Unknown Regions.

    From a very neutral, cold-blooded point of view, as Thrawn outlines...
    Show Spoiler

    (when he explained to Nightswan on Batonn that he had to decide whether to strengthen the Empire to make it into an ally against the "evil" or to make it into an easier target - his own people were safer either way.)


    ...you could argue that he got what he wanted in any case. Yes, the Empire toppled (and supposedly so did Thrawn)) butat came after was definitely not stable so if (!) there was some evil waiting to pounce, surely the Republic space would be easier prey for it.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
  25. Vana Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 4
    Don't make a whole generality out of this, it happened ONCE (and he seemed to regret it), not "all the time, in all occasions".

    Anyway Zahn's vision of the character eveolved through time and in the new canon we have I think how Zahn sees his character now, once he is developped, with a background and everything, and that Thrawn is not the kind of man to want civilian deaths. So please stop using the only vague argument you could find in Legends and see Thrawn how Zahn "updated" him and officially sees him now: and he really avoids civilians deaths and openly refuses missions because of that.