Lit Thrawn Trilogy: Overrated?

I like the Thrawn Trilogy.
I loved Thrawn & C'baoth as villains.

 

I just got done reading all 3 again for the second time and i love these books but Zahn says "a shiver went up their spine..." WAY TOO MUCH! lol

 

So it took me forever but I finally finished reading the Thrawn trilogy, and honestly, I wasn’t terribly impressed. The books aren’t bad, the prose is competent and I do like the set up and follow through of certain story beats, like Jade breaking her conditioning by killing Luke’s clone.

They’re an interesting trio of books in that they’re essentially the foundation of the EU, and they came out before the prequels so I can see why people probably enjoyed these glimpses into the backstory even if some of it doesn’t quite jive with what later became established canon (the clone wars lasting for decades, c’baoth becoming a Jedi late in life, Palpatine being a senator 100 years before ANH, the emperor tearing off one of Vader’s arms as punishment after losing the first Death Star, etc).

Part of my problem with these books is that I don’t feel like anyone really has character arcs other than Jade and Karrde. Our main group of characters have already had their arcs in the movies, so when it comes to these books, everyone just kind of exists to move the plot forward and I don’t feel like there’s much happening internally.

I kinda just have limited interest in what happens after ROTJ in both timelines, because it just feels repetitive to bring back the empire and defeat them again. I find I tend to prefer Star Wars books that take place during or before episodes 1-6. This is just my opinion, but for all their flaws, I like the sequel trilogy better. If the empire has to come back as the antagonists, I’d prefer to see our heroes be a new generation of characters.

I seem to have unusual taste in Star Wars novels. Everyone seems to highly recommend the Thrawn trilogy, Darth Bane trilogy, and the Revenge of the Sith novel, and I found all of those to be overrated. So far my favorite Star Wars books are Cloak of Deception, Labyrinth of Evil, Shadow of the Sith, Into the Dark, and The Fallen Star.

 

Part of what i now find the most interesting aspects of TTT are the glimpses at a alternative (pre-prequel) history of the clone wars. Still wondering how the prequels would have been like if Lucas never made the movies and Zahn got to write his own version as novels.

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It’s interesting that the elements that were made apocryphal by the Prequels are starting to be interwoven into modern canon. Case in point, Mount Tantiss and that concept of non-Kamino cloning being worked into the plot of the Bad Batch.

I’d be very curious to see if more of that kind of stuff, from early EU Pre-Prequels outside of TTT, gets retrofitted as well.

 

The best part of the Thrawn Trilogy where Thrawn is an actual villain and not whitewashed to the extent later on (he only took on the Republic to toughen it up to face the Yuuzhan Vong).

 

Imagine being a kid - five to eleven years old - when the original trilogy came out and it was your life. That was me! I had all the Kenner toys and I played with them all the time with my older brother and friends.

Then in college, you go to your local comic book store in the early 1990s and seeing a brand new issue of Dark Empire #1. Mind blown! New Star Wars stories?! You are out of your mind! So I bought it and the store clerk told me there is a new novel out. Mind blown again! So you go home, read Dark Empire #1, and then there is back matter about holocrons and pontifications from Palpatine. WHOAH! This new Star Wars stuff is AWESOME!!

Then I go to the mall and find the new novel at Waldenbooks in paperback form, so I snatch it up and read it. Heir to the Empire was fun and there are weird clones. Could be interesting.

But as Thrawn novel #2 and #3 come out, it all starts to feel confusing. Why no Palps in Zahn's books? And why no Thrawn in these new Dark Horse comic books?

Dunno, after a couple of years, the GFFA was losing its luster. These stories were not interconnected, but in the same universe. Wha?! And by the time the Empire's End comic came out, I had lost my enthusiasm about these new stories. It all felt weird. I was in college and couldn't keep up with everything, so there was that. I know now there were some retcons about Palps and Thrawn and trying to link their stories more intelligently. Meh.

But alas, when the Rebels series came out with the episodes that featured Thrawn, I downloaded the Heir to the Empire audiobook to catch up on my rememberries, and well, hmmm, ugh. It was bad. I couldn't get past the first hour.

 

I really liked these books on the whole, but it didn't feel like the movie characters had grown or changed enough for the five years that passed since Endor. I can understand why they were written that way out of universe, but it still feels weird to pick up exactly where the movies left off after a gap that's longer than the movie era entirely.

There's also the reliance on random chance to move the plot forward - Heir hinges on the pure coincidence of the heroes being in the same as Thrawn at the same time, twice.

 

I think Timothy Zahn has his strengths; introducing new interesting characters, Mara Jade remains one of my favorite EU characters for instance, as well as good villains with interesting weaknesses. While its subtle in many ways Thrawn has problems because he doesn't really understand the New Republic, its appeal to the average galactic citizen, and why people fight for it on a psychological level for all he can predict there moves tactically and he refuses to learn, see how he constantly refers to the Republics forces as Rebels when other Imperials recognize that they are a legitimate government now that is more powerful than the Empire and Zahn deserves credit for creating part of the EU when it did not previously exist, but he also has weaknesses.

The big weakness for me is how it's obvious when you reread it that he either dislikes or more likely doesn't know how to write Jedi and the force and so introduces gimmicks like the Ysalmari so he doesn't have to actually have his villain face a Jedi. The second problem is how because of that at its worse it reads like standard military science fiction rather than Star Wars and imports many of their bad habits; see the idea of the civilian leadership has no idea what they are doing and often gets in the way of the competent military leadership which we see with the arrest of Ackbar and all of Borsk Fey'la actions. The final problem is not really present in the Thrawn Trilogy but common in some of his latter works where he falls in love with his characters especially the villains and tries to justify their actions and how they are not really villains but more misunderstood heroes because of it rather than accepting they are the bad guys.

In fairness in universe the Force exists and so coincidence as is often stated isn't it instead its the will of the force guiding people to where they need to be and so justified in universe.

 

Yes. MASSIVELY so. I have no nostalgia for these books, I never read them as a kid and when I learned about them they didn't register much to me, they were just things that happened (dark empire caught my interest). I didn't get to them until after the end of the EU and what I saw did not impress me.

These books are mediocre military sci-fi stories, with some star wars names. They are filler and not good filler either.

Talking about the first battle, it is not good. Thrawn looks at art from (100s?) of years ago and is able to determine exactly how the enemy will react. It made me go "wow Thrawn is really dumb" and revealed the hand of the author. I saw thrawn as only a threat because the author gave him an "I win button". The race stuff is stupid and honestly horrible. The answer to "why is borsk an @$$" should not be "it's his race".

HttE is the best of the bunch (I think mostly due to Luke giving his best performance in these books), but it has bad points, the first battle

DfR, I was never sold on the fleet being that useful or that big a deal. They are 200 40+ year old ships that haven't been maintained. And given how useless poorly stored Russian equipment has been in Ukraine my feelings have intensified. This has Borsk at his worst, but he is seeking the backing of the military as no one else in the NR matters apparently.

Now tLC is BAD, thrawn loses his intel source.... and nothing changes. He still keeps making his leaps and is still right. Even though the NR did everything right with regards to deception, but it doesn't matter, they might as well have spent the time blowing bubbles. And Thrawn still doesn't explain why he thinks that. But it doesn't matter Thrawn is right, because, I guess he read the novel. Mara's arc isn't much. I kinda liked her in HttE, but in this? the trick with killing the clone is kinda ok, but honestly her whole resolution was very weak. My reaction was "that's it?" there was no rejection of Palpatine no coming to terms with her past, she just kills to people and it's all fine. Honestly I was puzzled as to why she was such a popular ship with Luke, since she isn't much character wise. Mara saving Leia while Leia thinks herself in a circle. It is disrespectful to Leia, putting her down so Mara can save her. Rather than let both characters be good Zahn puts down lucas's so his OCs can look better.

Also people going on about how smart thrawn is, but he has stealth tech and a jedi to coordinate them all, these are major advantages.

Leia doesn't do much, the Nogri only listen to her because she is Vaders daughter and they only turn based on evidence that is already on planet and I never got the sense she was used all that well.

Han does get in contact with Garm.

People say these are essential reading for Star Wars, but I don't see it. Unless you want to get first appearances. JAT is much more important for the arcs of Luke and Leia going forward.

edited to reflect proper time placement of event.

 

Mara is never on the same battlefield as Leia. You may be thinking of The Last Command.

 

When Leia's apartment on Coruscant is attacked and Leia thinks herself in circles when Mara comes up and cuts her a way out. Leia does nothing so Mara can save her.

 

That's in The Last Command. It is not in Heir to the Empire.

In TLC, when Leia senses Mara sneaking up behind the ambushing team with intent to attack them, yes, Leia fake-surrenders in order to distract them so Mara's attack will work, instead of attacking the ambush team herself, and yes, before that, she has a "Thrawn must have plans for everything" panic, so there's an element of "thinking herself in circles" prior to Mara's arrival on the scene.

 

Wrong book my mistake. Ok I will change that.

 

I loved TTT when it first came out, back in the dark times when there had been no new SW in ages. A few years later I went back to re-read it, and it didn't hold up at all. Couldn't hold my interest, the characters seemed flat or self-parodies, and the story didn't make that much sense.

 

May I ask which parts you found the most nonsensical?

 

Plot coincidences were too extreme and too often even by SW standards. Thrawn's tactical art analysis is nonsense. Karrde came off as an author's pet and stand-in.

 

I’m glad I’m not the only one who found Thrawn’s art analysis tactics to be silly.

 

As Adult when re-reading these books I was also struck by how much he has his characters cock an eyebrow or say point or twitch a lip on the page but not only that but he repeats the same sentence
In DFR "And Captain (insert name) is no longer smiling" Repeat in TLC and then repeat again in Vision of the Future
Its a little thing but it bugs me
@AusStig given how highly he's regarded this will be controversial but I'm also feeling the same about Stackpole and his Rogue/I JEDI books. It feels like hard sci-fi and Corran the main character is to obnoxious and perfect to like. I want him to be beaten or out flown but he never does.

Also We are are talking about the Trilogy but
What's your thoughts on his Hand of Thrawn Duology books given they were the sequels to this and you thoughts on whether the writing quality improved or not ?

 

IMO, Triumvirate were interesting and rather unique villains and some storylines were great (especially the one about Imperial agents on Bothawui), but others (journey on Nirauan and search for Car'das) were too boring and slow-paced, so in general TTT > THoT.

 

I did kind of wonder if Jorg Cardas (George Lucas) endorsing Talon Karrade (Zahn) a sort of self insert thing by the Author.

I thought the shots against other Authors works in the books seemed unesscary.

I also felt Zahn undercut his own arguments about Luke being to powerful too

What's your thoughts on Shada was she a Mara clone or not ?

 

IMO, she was one of the least interesting characters and thus by hardly a Mara clone.

 

I don't mind his RS books. But Corran is the worst part of it. I really don't like I Jedi. As someone who like JAT I find it insulting and Corran is EVEN worse, I can't stand him there nor how JAT is treated.
I don't like Dark Tide either.

Aweful, disgusting books, that insult not only Star Wars but everyone who fights against fascism. The idea that the survival of the fascist state is a good and desirable thing is disgusting and has only gotten MUCH worse with time.].

The Bothan plot is moronic nonsense "We hate the people who helped not the people actually committed the warcrime", is something that only people who already hate these people and sympathise with those who commited the war crime. I also hate, beyond words the idea that a non-human planet would VOTE TO JOIN THE EMPIRE.

Then there is the insults to Dark Empire and JAT, can't have Mara actually been dating Lando (i assume this is a weird thing with wanting Mara to be with only Luke). It's not Zahns worst book that I read (that is Thrawn Alliances), but it is his most repugnant for themes.

 

I don't know if it was meant to be an apology for facism but simply more Zahn simply trying to highlight how awesome his characters are. In that same book Han Solo literally gives up when he's met (fake) Thrawn as he tells Lando, everything they do is pointless as Thrawn has already planned for it.
Then there is Mara saying how if Palps is a step ahead then Thrawn was 2 steps ahead of everyone. That really got me as I was think wait wasn't Thrawn working for Palpatine not the other way around ???
While Mara was never on the Dark side and only went after bad people (yet was still super important to Palpatine) and Karrade of course was the best smuggler ever

I do have some sympathy for Stackpole when it comes to Dark Tide. He was promised a Trilogy and then at the last second got told it was a duology, so that can't have helped him.

I agree about why Zahn retconed Lando and Mara. It seems unesscary. Is Mara not allowed a boyfriend before she marries Luke ?

I gave up on the New Thrawn books. There was no real development or even motivation for Thrawn simply the illusion of it with Thrawns analysing people's faces at the beginning of each Chapter.

I still think he worst is Alliegance. Luke getting locked in a closet. Vader jealous off and then constantly being bested by 18yr old girl. Plus Zahn rehashing old scenes. He literally takes the Luke/Pirate layer scene in Spector (which was pure filler in that book anyway) and copies it for Mara in this book.

 

Lots of authors have their repeated phrases