TIE Defender in the EU.

Bringing this up again after I got to talking with some friends in the Emperor's Hammer about the TIE Defender yesterday.

Its been several months ago, was talking with Valiento about the many different models of the TIE Defender in one of the various "favorite fighter polls". Hopeing he'll reply on this

Does anyone know how many different versions of the TIE Defender have been made ? And in what ways they are weaker or stronger than the original TIE Defenders.

Also what type of starfighters is the Imperial Remnant using now ? I can`t recall ever reading about what kind of fighters they have in service. Hopefully they've gotten rid of those old Preybirds. As remote as it may be, perhaps theres a chance they've been able to produce new models of TIEs or even TIE Defenders or TIE Avengers.

Going off on a slightly different topic..

TIE Avengers, what ever happened to them ?
Aside from the X-Wing series of computer games, have they ever been in the EU ? Not the TIE Advance X1s, but the "Avenger" or TIE Advanced as it was called in the games.

I've thought the TIE Avenger would have been a better model to focus production on than the very expensive TIE Defender. Where it was cheaper than a TIE Defender I had hoped to see it in some of the books. I remember from TIE Fighter how Zaarin destroyed the bulk of the TIE Avenger/Defender factorys. But surely if TIE Defenders have been springing up across the EU there is some Avengers out there somewhere....


Samuel

 

I think the only story other than the games that the Defender has showed up is in Isard's Revenge.

 

didnt Starfighters of Adumar have some at the end?

 

I'm not sure. It mighth ave, but I don't remember.

 

just checked, they were

 

The only models of TIE Defender I've got info on are from the games and the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. I have yet to read of the T/D in the novels. If you are referring to multiple models of T/D because of how they differ in appearance between the games and in the oficial drawings, then it may just be a case of the two versions referring to the same fighter, but the images not matching, due to the limits of polygon computer model construction and such.

However, in the computer games the stats for the T/D have changed between TIE Fighter CD-ROM and X-wing Alliance. This could possibly be regarded as meaning there were two models of T/D in production, and perhaps could account for the different images of the fighter. The original T/D as depicted in the TFCD differs in appearance to the EGVV image in that the support struts are more wing-like rather than the standard TIE supports. Also the cockpit assembly has a protruding 'greenhouse' canopy, whereas the EGVV image shows a more standard TIE ball cockpit. The wings of the EGVV version also resemble the TIE Interceptor a bit more than the computer game version. It could be assumed then that the game version was the first production run, that was then later put on hold due their expense and to the destruction of the manufacturing facilities by Zarrin, and the EGVV version is the later production run that has different stats and may appear in the EU novels.

Below are the stats for the TIE Fighter CD-ROM version and for the X-wing Alliance version.

TFCD TIE Defender:
Speed 156 MGLT
Shields 200 SBD
Hull 20 RU
Maneuverability ~150 DPF

XWA TIE Defender (EGVV/EU version?)
Speed 144 MGLT
Shields 100 SBD
Hull 14 RU
Maneuverability 110 DPF

The weapons systems have remained constant between the two versions. Four laser cannons, two ion cannons and two warhead launchers that carry a total of eight concussion missiles as standard. There are a few missions in TIE Fighter CD-ROM that have TIEs carrying double loads of missiles, but this can be considered a non-standard modification in those missions.

Note both the lowering of stats along with the creation of a more conventional looking TIE Defender image in EGVV, which may imply that the first version had higher performance, but was non-standard in construction and thus more expensive. Then the later version from XWA that may be in the EU was toned down and more standardized for TIE construction and thus less expensive. The real reason for the change is probably just from LucasArts trying to balance the game mechanics, but since they are drastic changes and there are two seperate T/D images, then perhaps they can be considered different production models. Note that LucasArts for some reason drastically changed the appearance of the Missile Boat as well between the TFCD and XWA. The TFCD Missile Boat was very advanced and non-standard in appearance for a Cygnus Spaceworks craft, and the later XWA version has the SLAM booster removed and looks alot more like the Lambda-class Imperial Shuttle produced by the same company. This could be considered another case of two different models of the same ship being created; a prototype version and a less expensive more standardized production version.

The argument above could have some holes. The story of TFCD and XWA both occur between the Hoth and Endor battles, which means there were two versions of the T/D being used at the same time which would seem a bit odd. Also, even though the stats for the T/D changed between TFCD and XWA, the model did not. However, the folks over at the XWA Upgrade Project have since created a new T/D model for XWA that matches the EGVV version.

There is no 'official' info stating that there were two versions that I know of, but it can be implied from the seperate images and the differing stats.

As to the TIE Avenger, it seemed from the games that it was going to be produced in greater numbers than the T/D. The destruction of the manufacturing facilities hinderd the production of both,

 

I'm fairly certain that there was only one TIE Defender. The XWA version was toned down because it would've kicked any Alliance craft into touch no questions asked. This is why it was left out of XvTIE. It was a popular fighter though, probably explaining its being brought back, but toned down.

That aside, the games are EU!

 

yeah, the Defender is already awesome in XWA. Imagine it harder

 

Well thats annoying everything I just typed was lost. Clicked on the "markup codes" link figured it opened in a new window. It didn`t...


heh now I gotta remember what all I had typed. I hate this I spent an hour typeing a very good reply for to you Raptor.

Well about the TIE Avenger being in the EU, I've never seen it in the EU. The only times I've seen a TIE Advanced in the EU was in the Rogue Squadron comics and in Vector Prime and then it was the X1 versions. Lando had one, or two, but never did hear what happened to them. Vong destoryed them I suppose. I saw in the Rebellion Era Sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast a picture of an X1 with all red solar panels and it was fireing red lasers. But there was nothing wrote about it. Just a picture showing something about an adventure idea to a secert Imperial research base.

The problem with the TIE Defender and several of the other craft looking so different between TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance was corrected back in 1997, or 1998. Lucas Arts/Totatlly Games released a much updated copys of TIE Fighter and X-Wing useing the graphics/textures from the game X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. The TIE Defender and Missile Boat in this update of TIE Fighter are identical to the ones featured in X-Wing Alliance. Even the TIE Advanced in X-Wing was updated to look identical to the T/A in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance. The "funny" thing being that model of T/A hadn`t even been made yet. I don`t know what the deal is with that...

About the stats being changed, well that from what I've read was done by Lawrence Holland. The main designer behind the X-Wing series games. He has said many times in the past that he wished they had never made up the TIE Defender. The stats was lowered inorder for it to balance the game out better. Also in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter the T/A stats was lowered and again in X-Wing Alliance the T/A stats was lowered yet again. He considered the Missile Boat and TIE Defender to be "super fighters" nearly to be cheating having them in the games. If you have X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, or its add-on Balance of Power. You will notice that neither the TIE Defender nor the Missile Boat is in that game. Its been said by many that had the X-Wing Alliance story line not of involed Zaarin both those fighters would have been lost to the past.

The EGVV version of the TIE Defender, from my understanding, was made to be identical to the picture of the T/D shown on the CCG cards. Also if you have ever seen the Micro Machine TIE Defender "toy" it too was made like the EGVV/CCG version. I liked that version better than the TIE95/X-Wing Alliance version as it, to me, seemed to flow more with tradional T.I.E. designs. The cockpit ball especially.

Speaking of how in TIE Fighter sometimes the player was given a double warhead load. I always thought of that as being something like how military planes/jets carry drop tanks. heh thats how I explained it to myself anyhow. But those missions where they had a TIE Fighter or a TIE Interceptor with warheads was alittle more than far fetched.

The only times I've seen the TIE Defender in the EU was in those two X-Wing books. Valiento showed me that the T/D shown in those books was indeed a different model from those we seen in the games/EGVV/CCG.

Oh and I almost forgot, the T/D is in Galactic Battlegrounds. Has a very nice model and matches, I believe, the EGVV/CCG pictures. I kinda doubt that this game could be consider cannon, it has TIE Bombers with 4 bomb pods on them! and lots of other little things like that. But it is a fun game to play.

Now what caused me to lose everything I typed the last time. I was going to make a fancy link but I'll just copy/paste the address instead this time. For some very interesting information on the TIE Defender after the battle of Endor down load the PDF file that Wizards of the Coast has, its an addtion to its starship guide book. I use to have this file and the PDF viewer but lost both the last time I had to format my computer. Go here:

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/arti

 

The four-podded TIE was a ''TIE Interdictor''.

Yeah, the Defenders & the Missile Boats were super-fighters, but that's what made them so cool. However it's probably not a good idea to pit a squadron consisting of craft that each have enough explosives to decimate several large capital ships against a squadron of B-wings.

To reiterate my previous statement though, games are EU!

 

Whats a "TIE Interdictor" ? In Galatic Battlegrounds the upgrades to the TIE Bomber gave it an addtional bomb bay pod each time it was upgraded to finally have four bomb bay pods with the cockpit pod in the center of the TIE Bomber. Its very weird looking. It looked like some of those "super TIE" addons for X-Wing Alliance that people use to make.

The Missile Boat would be (is) deadly against a squadron of B-Wings. It is both anti-starfighter and anti-shipping. It carrys 40 concussion missiles for use against fighters in its secondary missile pod. And in the primary pod can carry several various loadouts. From 30 proton torpedos, to 20 heavy rockets, and 10 space bombs and 40 mag pluse missiles and new from X-Wing Alliance, the Ion pluse missile, 40 of them btw. Of course in a gun fight it would be at a major disadvantage with its single laser cannon.

Samuel

 

"Well thats annoying everything I just typed was lost. Clicked on the "markup codes" link figured it opened in a new window. It didn`t..."

In fact, if you had clicked on 'back' in your browser, it should have kept your text as you wrote it... At least, that works for me... So it should work for you too, I think.

 

Usally that works for me too but when I clicked back it went back to the forum and when I pressed forward it went to the markup codes page. It was weird.


Samuel

 

Part of my argument for two types was somewhat a devil's advocate stance as well as influence from reading Curtis Saxton's webpages. He has a tendency to think every slight variation of a pictured ship means its a different class. I was fairly sure it was intended to be only one T/D model, but the stats and image changes could have been interpreted in the EU backstory to mean different models. As to the model changes, I have all the X-wing games (X-wing 3.5" Imperial Pursuit 3.5", B-wing 3.5" TIE Fighter 3.5", Defender of the Empire 3.5", X-wing Collector's CD-ROM, TIE Fighter Collector's CD-ROM, X-wing VS. TIE Fighter, Balance of Power, X-wing Collectors Series [updated models] and X-wing Alliance), so I was aware of the lack of T/D and Missileboat in XvT, for multiplayer reasons of them being too powerful, as well as the new models in the Collectors Series, kind of a Special Edition for the original games "with newly enhanced digital effects". The Missile Boat seems to have had the most drastic appearance change in the X-wing Collector's CD-ROM and XWA, and even though its kind of interesting how it looks more like an Imperial Shuttle, I think they should have retained the original design. The XWA Upgrade Project also includes an update of the original TFCD Missile Boat model, and it looks really good.

A side note, it seems the Stormtrooper Transport has had the most texture changes of all the ships. In practically every game it looks different than the last...

I also saw that CCG image of the more standard looking TIE Defender, but I wasn't sure if it came out before EGVV book. Also, the Micro Machines model mentioned is the larger Action Fleet model, which also looks like the EGVV/CCG image. With the retail products of the T/D being produced reflecting the updated appearance, perhaps this implies the origianal Defender computer model was just different in appearance due to the limits of polygon modeling when it was first created, and its intended appearance is as in the merchandise.

So is this new Tie Defender in the EU books of a much different appearance or construction than the original one? I still have to get around to the later half of the EU novels, including NJO and such.

 

They appear in Isard's Revenge, and then towards the end of Starfighters of Adumar, but other than that, there is only one model out, although I would antisipate many prototypes around.

 

I didn`t know if you had the new versions of X-Wing/TIE Fighter or X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. I hated the way the made the Missile Boat look. I still don`t understand it. I was so happy when I found out the XWAUP was making the "old school" version of the Missile Boat. I have it installed btw


I think sometimes Saxton takes it abit extreme. Just like the differences from TIE Disk to X-Wing Alliance and all the updates inbetween. A game like that you can`t count all of those. Updates are like candy.

When they made TIE Fighter that was the most advanced 3D modeling to date. Absolutely top of the line. But now they can do soooo much more. Like for example what the XWAUP done with the TIEs.

Its like with the old Dreadnaught from TIE Fighter compared to the one in X-Wing Alliance. At the time they just couldn`t make it look like it does now in XWA, or the XWAUP version.

Does anyone know if WEG ever wrote anything about the TIE Defender ? Its nice to see that Wizards of the Coast has included it.

Have you ever seen Darksaber's TIE Defender MK II ? I like it alot, its the same as the XWAUP version he made but it has missile launcher pods mounted on the sides of the cockpit ball instead of having the missile launchers where the chin lasers would be on a T/F. The Missile launchers are just like those on the T/A cockpit ball. I thought it was more realistic that way. It just seems to me that it would be impossible to store any warheads inside of the cockpit ball like that.

Hopefully we'll see the T/D and T/A in the future. Theres a bunch of NJO books left!

Glory to the Empire!

Samuel

 

dont know which I want more, the full upgrade, or the NJO Project

 

Yeah!

The NJO project is really looking good. The XWAUP has slowed down alittle bit, but its picking back up. Can`t wait to get the Mon Cal ship patch! Or the Imperial cap ship patch!

Heres a new question for you guys.

The Nebulan-B Frigate. How in the Emperors name can it possiblely carry two squadrons of fighters ???

Its impossible. Absolutely impossible! Even with TIEs. How the rebels can get more than a handful of X/B/Y/A-Wings in one is beyond me. Its just tooo small.

Samuel

 

They couldnt even fit the Falcon in

 

Well, in Wraith Squadron they fit a full squad of X-wings into a corvette...

 

Also, they make reference to the TIE Advanced or Avenger models in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, even though we dont see any in action.

 

The only canon Escort Frigate we saw was the Rebel Medical Frigate, which was itself a modified version of the Nebulon-B, with the entire hangar bay and facilities removed, along with several heavy weapons removed, to make room for the medical equipment and rooms. If we consider the game version of the Escort Frigate to be the standard, it does have a relatively large hangar in the forward hull. Since it was originally an Imperial ship, it may well have been able to cram a couple of TIE squadrons into that area, due to their relatively small size and the ability to mount them in racks and not take up deck space. However it is a stretch to think that two squadrons of Alliance fighters could fit, as those ships require deck space and are usually about twice the size of TIE's. The WEG book did say 'up to two squadrons' rather than strictly two squadrons, so perhaps this means two squadrons is the absolute maximum, cramming each fighter in with almost no room to move, and that normally only one squadron is carried. I'll do a few size comparison checks to see how many fighters could be crammed in a Nebulon-B, and perhaps post a scan or something later.

 

Here's a diagram featuring the Nebulon-B along with the Corvette and several smaller craft to see which ones could really fit in the Frigate in the numbers claimed by the RPG materials. Offhand it appears the TIE Fighters have better chance of fitting a squadron or two, depending on the available interior space besides the actual hangar itself. I got the hangar size approximation from the XWA Escort Frigate 3-D model. Note also the X-wing and Corvette to show how it would be most difficult to fit a squadron into the forward hold, unless it was very drastically enlarged to allow 12 X-wings.

[image=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/pdf4e78162b7a92a44130d5712ee1bd30/fe02335d.jpg.orig.jpg]

 

If any of you is familuar with the mission editor AlliED for X-Wing Alliance, it is to scale. With it you can of course edit most everything in a mission. But it has the nice addtion of showing the hanger space of the ships. Useing AlliED I placed both TIEs and X-Wings in the hanger area and it would be possible to squeeze a squadron of TIEs in. Perhaps even have them in over head racks and even another squadron on the deck. But in that case the lower squadron would have to launch before the upper squadron could. The hanger opening isn`t large enough.

A-Wings: 8 can fit with alittle room to spare.
B-Wings: due to the way AlliED represents the B-Wing I'm unable to get an accrate fit. But I would say perhaps 4. It looks as if 5 wouldn`t leave any room.
X-Wings: 8 can fit wing tip to wing tip.
Y-Wings: 6 can barely fit with little room between fighters.

TIE/Ln: 24 can fit very tight, but it seems to be possible. With 12 on the lower deck and 12 on the upper racks. (if there are racks)
TIE Interceptor: 12 with 6 on the lower deck and 6 above. perhaps 16 could be squeezed in but I'm not sure about it.
TIE Bomber: 12 with some room to spare, with 6 above and 6 below.
TIE Avenger: 16 with 8 below and 8 above. That may sound crazy, I don`t really belive it. I would have to check it in game to be certain. Cause the T/A is the widest T.I.E.
TIE Defender: 12 with 6 above and 6 below.


The above may not be exact but its close. AlliED does seem to be off on the T/As size. But other than that everything else looked okay.


I've heard some people say that there may be internal space below the hanger for extra storage but that just doesn`t seem possible either.

I don`t know how to post pics, nor do I have a place to host them. But I could take pictures from AlliED for everyone to see. If someone could host the pictures.

Samuel

 

Check out www.imagestation.com for picture hosting. It's free and it just requires a sign up to activate. There is one thing about the computer version of the Frigate that may be a problem with scaling. As far as I recall the games list the Nebulon-B as 400 meters rather than 300 meters. In the Editor, is the Frigate actually scaled as 300 meters to the other ships or does it reflect the tech room stats of 400 meters? Perhaps the most consistent ship is the Corvette at 150 meters so it may be the best to use for scale.