Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by Wonderland, Sep 22, 2008.

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  1. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    You're missing the point here. The context, whatever it is, has been cynically designed and manipulated by the filmmakers to induce a bare-shoulder look for their minor lead actress. I'm not an Alice purist exactly, but I have a great fondness for the source material and this change is drastic and unwelcome from my POV.

    Ugh. Keep your sexy Alice and give me the real thing. Should we sexualize Dorothy, too? How about the little girl in Miyazaki's Spirited Away? These are underage children here. I don't want to see Alice's bare shoulder and upper breastular region. It departs from the material in a pandering and solicitous fashion, which I find cheap and tasteless.

    And again, I want to be clear I'm no prude. I'm all for female nudity in film; I gave an infamous speech/stand-up routine on the subject in Austin, 2001, which I won't go into here for reasons of modesty and family-friendliness. The bottom line for me is that this is supposed to be children's literature, not sultry, PG-13-rated turn-on material. That stuff has its place, and it is not in the timeless classic Alice in Wonderland. IMO!

    Seldon's second paragraph above is an absurd straw man. The obvious difference is that the White Rabbit, Queen of Hearts and all the rest were created by a Victorian man of, and in, that era. Spaghetti straps and a low bustline were not so devised. The values and imagery should follow accordingly.

    This BTW is another issue I had with Sleepy Hollow, which was modernistic and anachronistic, and therefore unconvincing. I'm liking this Burton's Alice thing less and less.
  2. Sn4tcH Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2004
    star 4
    I don't blame you for that, but yes, Todd is great movie.
  3. The_Smirking_Revenge Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2008
    star 2
    It seems to me that ever since Planet of the Apes, Burton has made one bad movie, followed by one good one, and I hate to say it, but Alice falls exactly into the "one bad one" category. I'll probably see it just for the 3D factor, but so far nothing about this movie has been very awe inspiring.

    I've always loved the Mad Hatter and Depp and Burton have turned him into what I can only describe as a gay zombie. It looks completely ridiculous, but I'm not writing it off just yet. I remember when those early pics of Heath as the Joker surfaced and my reaction was similar, without the gay zombie feelings.

    - T_S_R
  4. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    My hope is that the CGI will warp or alter Depp's Mad Hatter somehow, because as it stands, yeah, he looks ridiculous, like some smalltime kid's show host who happens to be dead. Aaaaaaaaand gay. No offense to dead gay zombie smalltime kid's show hosts intended.
  5. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Is it my imagination, or does he look like Elijah Wood in this photo?

    [image=http://nummynims.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/alice_burton_mad-hatter-011.jpg]

    [image=http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3500000/Elijah-elijah-wood-3563664-816-1222.jpg]
  6. Darth_Hydra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    Trailer is out!

    Looks very promising IMO. Just hope the Chesire Cat doesn't scare too many kiddies when the movie actually comes out(probably won't but you never know).
  7. Darth_Hydra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    Don't mean to double post but apparently Disney has asked for the trailer to be taken down, but will give us a better resolution tomorrow.
  8. Jedi_Johnson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 5
    Is Disney putting one out just cause it got leaked or was it their plan to release around this time I wonder. [face_thinking]
  9. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    Horrible designs, and I don't mean in the good way. What a *ugly ceshire cat. The Hatter seems very wrong. Why's the red queen a CG copy of the disney version, instead of some actress in a funny hairdo?

    Just by the looks, American McGee's Alice > Burton's Alice in Wonderland. What, did he see the game and went "aww, someone already did it", and then went with all the second-best ideas?
    Okay, so the game is a twisted quasi-sequel to the book's story and this movie is that story, but surely you can go in that general direction. Like, say, the way the Hellboy movies look.

    This one looks like it doesn't even know how it wants to look like, grim or happy, faithful or crazy, so it does none of it very well.
  10. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Everything looks terrific, IMO, except the Hatter and Alice's off-the-shoulder dress. The White Rabbit, Red Queen, Tweedles, and Cheshire Cat all look excellent and true to the original illustrations (which are the origin of the big-head-on-a-little-body caricature style; Disney only repeated this design, but did not invent it or claim it as unique).

    The Hatter just doesn't look right; he looks made-up and fake-ish and not at all like the book illustrations. And don't get me started on that bedamnable anachronistically sexy dress. :mad:
  11. TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 10
    a) paper =/= movie
    b) It's a Burton movie
  12. therufus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2009
    star 1
    I think that people tend to forget that when someone makes a movie from a book that it is how they see it. Not you or me but the director. Of course things aren't going to be the exact way that we want it because everyone has their own idea as to how it should go. Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings often gets people who hate it because it leaves stuff out or some things are juggled around, but I try to remember that this is the way that he sees the book. Burton has a very dark and strange mind and it comes out in his films, and this movie will be no different. If there is a zombie like Mad Hatter it's because that is how Tim interprets the Hatter. There is nothing wrong with this it is just different then how most think of the Mad Hatter. A lot of the problem is that our views are tainted by the cartoon and how it fits with the book if you have read it. I just get tiered of people bashing a film that is not even out yet because someone else thinks different then the rest of us. I am not saying that the film will be good or bad I can't divine the future but I do know that Tim Burton has done amazing work in the past and I will reserve judgment for when I see the film and not a day before. I leave you now with some words of wisdom: Don't fear the strange and different we are growing in numbers and we don't like how we are treated.
  13. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    There can be inaccurate interpretations as well.
  14. therufus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2009
    star 1
    I think only the person who wrote the novel can say for a fact weather an interpretation is right or wrong. In this case we can't get the that so we have to make do with what we have. I'm sure that if everyone in the world made this movie the Mad Hatter would be different in every single one, weather it's the way he talks, looks, walks, or whatever. As far as Tim's Hatter it is only wrong to you not to him and since he is the one making the film only his opinion matters right? I just wish people would keep open minds about things like this. So what if it isn't 100% the way it is in the book. Call it a "re-imanging" if it make you(not just Spider-Fan but all skeptics) feel better about seeing this film.
  15. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Actually I don't care about this movie in the slightest so I wouldn't label me as a skeptic, I was simply stating it is possible to completely misinterpret a character.

    The assumption that only the film maker's opinion is relevant is ridiculous, since he still has to draw in an audience to pay off the investors and studio.

    Not to mention Burton's other "re-imaginings" have frankly been utter disasters IMO. I guess I am just here to laugh at the ridiculous designs. :p
  16. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Sleepy Hollow was quite good. And I'm assuming Batman isn't included on your list of 're-imaginings'...

    But yeah, I wish he'd do another original project like Beetle Juice or Edward Scissorhands.
  17. Champion of the Force Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 4
  18. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    For the most part, the trailer looks pretty good. I like everything I see and hear except Alice's un-Victorian dress, and Depp as the Hatter. I must reiterate that even in motion he looks like a dead kid's show host with cheap make-up and a phony baloney act. I'm not buying him at all, and this does not bode well for the project in my eyes, since he's getting top billing and looks to be all over this movie for whatever reason. Meanwhile the whole thing screams "Burton!" at the top of its candy-coated lungs, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. [face_hypnotized]

  19. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Disagree. The difference here, therufus, is that the original publication of Alice was accompanied by illustrations, which have been intertwined with these characters and this literary work ever since! Can those drawings be modified? Of course. Redesigned, re-interpreted, re-purposed? Yes, yes, yes. But the essentials should, must remain.

    Disney's 1950s version, for example, uses the same basic design as the book illustration, but gives the Hatter a considerably goofier, more unkempt expression, based no doubt on the very silly face and slobbish demeanor of the voice actor, Ed Wynn.

    I have my copy of Alice open to Chapter VII, A Mad Tea Party, and except for the presence of a top hat, the Burton/Depp character looks nothing whatever like the illustrations on pages 68 and 70 of this publication. It irks me especially to see that the Red Queen's head has been properly enlarged, while Depp retains his normal proportions.

    It's not like it's a huge problem, or a deal-breaker -- as I've said the rest of the movie looks pretty good -- but the Depp-Hatter's look is simply out of step with the original incarnation of this work, which anyone can see in any library in the English-speaking world.

    I'm kinda "mad" about it myself. :mad: :p 8-}
  20. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Agreed. It's kind of akin to if someone did Peter Pan and dressed Hook like this:

    [image=http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/pirates_of_the_caribbean__at_world_s_end/chow_yun_fat/pirates.jpg]
  21. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    No but I definitely include it in the list of Burton movies I either loathe or am completely apathetic about.
  22. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    The score, the visual style, and Jack's performance as the Joker are the main reasons the 1989 Batman is considered a "classic". It's not especially well made, and rather defies believability on a number of levels, but it's entertaining and, you know, cool to look at.
  23. Spider-Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 4
    Funny because those are my three biggest problems with the movie. :p
  24. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    And here I thought the parts of the movie that ranked as amazing were the FX and getting the model shots so precisely aligned with the sets (or was it getting the sets to perfectly match the models?). Either way, what really makes Burton's Batman movie stand out is the fact that it was the first "adult" comic movie, and a radical change from the kiddie TV show of the 60's.
    I would argue that the best thing to come from the movie is the 90s Bruce Timm cartoons.
  25. ThrawnRocks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2004
    star 6
    Well, there goes my interest out the window. Some of the stills demanded my attention, but the trailer fell totally flat for me. Looks like I'll be keeping my promise to myself.

    Have fun with this one, guys! [face_peace]
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