ST Time limited, civil debate #1; Was Rey overpowered, relative to Luke and Anakin?

Here's the idea. Many threads at the moment are characterised by repeated retreading of the same points, and evasive posting when points are made that can't be refuted, with ad hominems sometimes thrown into the mix. This can be a source of frustration to people on both sides of any given argument. So here's my idea;

A series of debates limited by time so that discussion has a beginning and an end, after which the thread will be locked and maybe indexed and with some agreed rules by which we abide within the debate, so that hopefully, it will read as the definitive debate on the subject on here.

Here are the rules I'd propose:

Each debate starts with a question that is neutrally worded.

When stating your point of view, never assume anything is obvious, or base a point on something that is not agreed (eg. 'Well of course TFA is better than the prequels, therefore..."

A point only needs to be refuted once - no piling in when someone has mde a case that can be refuted.

If evidence is presented, it must be acknowledged, and where relevant, explain how the point has changed your own point of view: no pretending not to see evidence, or simply changing tack if evidence negates a point

If someone presents a fallacious argument, you may quote it and object; an objection has to be sustained by somebody that agrees with the underlying point, but not the way it was made. Eg: if someone says "well Han was clearly looking at a display in the screengrab", anyone may object, but only someone who also agrees with the idea that it was unbelievable that Rey could speak droid can sustain it; we police our own side of the debate. If an objection is sustained, the relevant post should be edited by the poster, or a mod.

Spamming of viewpoints, repeated assertions of the same thing may result in being asked not to contribute in the thread anymore

At the end of the given amount of time, the discussion is closed and archived.


Let's give it a try. So the first question is:

Was Rey overpowered, relative to Luke and Anakin in their first films?

I suggest a week for this debate.


Hopefully this thread won't sink like a stone.

 

I would personally say, no. She is clearly powerful, and those powers (in some ways) manifest themselves differently from Anakin and Luke but I'm not sure she is "over-powered". I'll break down each character going off their first film.

ANAKIN

Background: immaculate birth. Possibly conceived by the force. Midichlorian count stronger than any other Jedi.
Skills shown: at age 9, speaks Huttese, builds a protocol droid and his own pod-racer. Is the only human who can pod-race. Mechanical skills developed as part of his life working for Watto. Wins, pod-race. Though never having flown a star-fighter, is able to fly an N1 Star-fighter into battle and destroy (presumably with the Force guiding him though certainly Anakin is not intending to fire the death shot he does) the Droid Control ship thus saving the day where seasoned fighter pilots cannot.

LUKE

Background: son of the Chosen One so the Force is very strong with him. Brought up on a farm. Excellent pilot though we only see this at the end.
Skills shown: can block laser fire after one brief lesson from Obi-Wan while blind. Despite never flying an X-wing is able to survive the battle of Yavin where countless other Rebel pilots perish, ultimately pulling off a one-in-a-million shot that even the computer couldn't make.

REY

Background: while we don't yet know who she is or where she came from it seems we'll learn this later on. If she is descended from Anakin somehow, presumably she is as strong in the Force as Anakin and Luke. We also know that the Force is strong with her and that she also suspects the light has been there from the start. For some reason, the Skywalker saber calls to her. She has also had to adapt and survive alone in harsh environment on Jakku. This seems a noticeably tougher existence than both Anakin and Luke who appear to exist in relative comfort. Self-sufficiency is a necessity for survival in Rey's case.
Skills shown: She can speak various languages, learnt from interactions with offworlders she comes into contact with at Niima outpost, she's an excellent pilot, an excellent mechanic, she pulls off a mind trick, she's a natural fighter and when she finally allows the Force in at the end, she is able to beat Kylo Ren.

For me, I don't think there is anything in her character that is "over-powered" which is not supported by the film itself. I get that people will argue that Luke or Anakin don't best anyone with a saber in their first episode - but then they're not put in that situation, and both meet the challenge they face. I would argue that Anakin's is actually the weakest because in terms of motivation it's bordering on accidental - but if we're gong to accept the Lucas rationale that the Force is guiding his shot there (and it's explicitly stated in the films that the Force can partially control one's actions) then I don't see why we can't allow for the Force augmenting Rey's natural raw fighting skills against Kylo, especially when he's neither fully trained himself, when he's wounded and not fully focussed and when he's not even really trying to kill her. So yes, Rey is very self-sufficient, but I think that is hard-wired into the character and I do honestly believe that were the character male, this would barely be an issue at all.

EDIT - I think with this kind of debate, it's always going to be hugely subjective, so I think it's important we come at it, not from a position of "swaying the other side" so to speak, but more "this is why I think this" and trying to appreciate other takes on it. We have to try and engage positively from all sides, otherwise this is just descend in to the usual slanging match.

 

I say 'yes', but not in every aspect and some aspects can be explained, but not always within the movie (which could lead to false assumptions). So I try to split it up to each character as well:

Anakin (in the first movie):
-could speak a different language due to the location he lives and people he talks to
-has outstanding mechanical skills, which can be learned due to experimenting and constructing while working for Watto
-has great piloting skills due to him doing pod racing since a child
-has no abilities in using the force actively, except some passive use that Shmi confirmed to Qui-Gon that he knows some things earlier
-has no combat skills

Luke (in the first movie):
-can only speak basic, maybe also due to the normal usage of protocol droids on his farm to do translation, so no need to learn other languages
-has some mechanical skills like working and repairing droids as learned during the work on uncle Owen's farm
-has great piloting skills due to him flying a Skyhooper and shooting womp rats since a child
-has no abilities in using the force in an active or passive way before he met Obi-Wan; after some training he could deflect remote blaster bolts, so the first small active use; after hearing Obi-Wan's voice, he could use the force to direct the rockets to the target, so the second a little bigger active use of the force
-has no combat skills, was beaten by Sandpeople, by a criminal in a bar and had a lot of help from Han to deal with the stormies

Rey (in the first movie):
-can speak astromech, wookie languages, which can maybe be explained with a book in which she finds a language computer
-has outstanding mechanical skills which can be explained by working as a scavenger, so she studied the parts that she salvaged
-has great piloting skills which are not explained (maybe a book has to help with this)
-has no force abilities when we meet her, but halfway at Maz castle she hears voices, so the first passive use; last 20 minutes: she suddenly without explanation knows what a Jedi mind trick is and uses it to a stormtrooper; after hearing a voice and whispering 'the force', she has outstanding lightsaber combat skills (maybe some staff fighting she did as a scavenger could help, but I think it is over the top to beat a trained dark sider)

So for me the main problems are her piloting skills (which still needs to be explained) and the lightsaber combat/jedi mind trick parts to say Rey is overpowered. They can still be explained, but like the language computer, this should have been in this movie and not in some random novels.

 

I get that Rey got an insight into mind powers in her Force interrogation with Kylo, and her mind control exercise with Daniel Craig was an extension of that - I think the novelisation had her asking the question of what else she might be able to do. I don't think that came across brilliantly in the film; it seemed, on first look, that she suddenly and without much explanation she had just acquired a bunch of uber Jedi skills. It may have toned down the resulting internet poop-storm if the discovery was done a little more gradually:

Rey's locked up in the chair in the cell. Daniel Craig presses a button that locks the restraints and then he leaves. Rey gets a bit cross and struggles to escape. Whilst doing this she notices that there are objects levitating. She stops struggling and everything drops. She then concentrates on trying to lift something, and finds it to be quite a struggle. Nevertheless, she just about manages to lift the object and drop it on the control panel, pressing the button that unlocks the restraints. She then dismantles a railing (scavenges it if you will) so she has a bar (like her staff). She calls Daniel Craig in then wollops him with the bar, gets his gun and leaves.

That then feeds in somewhat more logically to her Force tug of war with Kylo for the Anakin saber, as she's already done some telekinesis.

Apart from the chair scene, I think the rest made sense and didn't make her appear too overpowered compared to the Skywalker boys. It was more subtly done with Anakin (pod racing) and Luke (destruction of the Death Star).

 

Re - piloting skills, she says she's flown ships before. She says she is a pilot. I'm not sure how that's any different from Anakin's and Luke's abilities. They are mentioned and shown. We don't need to see Luke or Anakin flying previously to believe that they learned how to fly. The only thing that has kept Rey on the planet is the fear/ hope her parents will return.

Re - the force - why is it wrong for Rey to hear the call of the Force? That moment has to happen at some point, and it happens she is close to the saber. It's no more passive than Luke hearing Obi-Wan tell him to run, or to Let Go. And you could argue that the vision she has, and Kylo unlocking the block in her mind tap her into the Force far more directly and overwhelmingly than anything Luke or Anakin experience at that stage. I think when Rey nods at Maz's suggestion that the light has always been there it suggests to me that Rey has been aware of the power somehow, but not understood it.

Storm_Cloud - yes. Something like that would have worked and probably been less contentious. I like the mind trick scene and think they get away with it myself (is it really overpowered compared to Luke blocking lasers on his third attempt whilst blind?) but I like that option too.

 

I don't see where she was really that over-powered. Yeah, she used a mind trick on her third try (albeit against a storm trooper, which isn't saying much) and beat Kylo in their duel, but Kylo was holding back against her. And if she was so powerful, why was Kylo able to fling her into the tree before their duel, or freeze her in place right before he took her? It's not like she came off as some all-powerful force being. She focused on the force and it helped her take Kylo by surprise, much like Obi-Wan against Maul.

 

The wording of this question sets up any anti-Rey position for failure. What does it mean to be overpowered in this context? It's not a video game. Yes, Rey is more powerful than Anakin and Luke were in their first films, but is that overpowered? Is that bad in the way that it is bad for a video-game character to be OP? Even if the story group guys all tweeted this instant that Rey is canonically, officially stronger than Anakin or Luke were in their first appearances, does that prove that she is a bad character or that TFA is a bad film? Certainly not on the face of it. Nevertheless, many people have indeed called her overpowered, and I am one of them.

So! This may be too high of a hill to climb, but let's see what I can do. (I come at this primarily from a narrative standpoint, rather than doing fancalcs and stuff to try and figure out how much energy Vader's Force choke outputs, or whatever. The Force is greater than the ability to destroy a planet; physics takes a back seat.)

Rey is overpowered. She is not overpowered in an "RPG stats" sense, like because she can Force-bench-press more weight than some other character, or whatever; she is overpowered because the "rules" of the Force and the events of the movie were consistently warped so that she could be glorified. Some of it is in-universe; some of it is in how the movie frames her accomplishments.

• Normally, one would think a teenage girl trying to beat up two Plutt goons, then a stormtrooper, using a staff, would fail. Not Rey! But wait — doesn't her harsh upbringing on Jakku give her the right? Hardly! The people she beat 1-on-2 were, well, thugs. And Finn was trained from birth. Also, you want to talk about "Jakku tough?" Look at what happened to the militia. That's what "Jakku tough" is worth: a whole lot less than stormtrooper tough. Jakku tough gets you killed real fast in a real fight.
• Side note: the little desert creature Rey pushes around to get BB-8? The official databank has this to say about them: "Jakku’s scavengers treat [Teedos] with respectful caution, wary of their unpredictable natures." Ha! That's a good one. Well played, databank. Way to stay on message.
• Normally, professional First Order pilots in fighters might be expected to destroy a freighter manned by one pilot who's never flown it before, plus one gunner. It seems the pilots themselves expected to win — there's no shot of them calling for help, right? The Finalizer is right up there in orbit, and these guys were sent on a ground attack mission. Maybe they're not even loaded out for air-to-air. But no, they want to make a fight of it, right here, right now, no help. That leads me to think the normal thing would be that the TIE fighters win this. Nope, not when Rey is flying! The movie even breaks Finn's gun. Why? To deny him credit and make sure everyone understands it is Rey's flying they have to thank for their survival, not Finn's shooting.
• There is also her operational triumph over Poe. Poe starts out with a fighter, BB-8, and the Luke map. He immediately loses all three, gets himself captured, has to be rescued, loses another fighter, then returns to base (somehow?) having not even recovered Finn, who has vital info about Starkiller base. His mission was a complete bust. Oh, and Lor San Tekka got killed. Rey starts out with nothing, but then quickly gains BB-8, the Luke map, a ship, and Finn with his intel about the oscillator. All get delivered safely to the Resistance. I guess Poe... uh... I don't know, owes her a drink or something? He'll probably be saluting her before long, in any case.
• I don't know if her mechanical abilities are really all that much of a problem, but it's notable that when she uses those abilities, Han is leveraged to approve/admire Rey and offer her a job, making clear that she has serious cred in this area. Obi-Wan pulls some nice tricks at times too, like when he sabotages the tractor beam and in TPM when he fixes up the submarine, but there's no need for other characters to fawn over him for it.
• Her lightsaber visions are really strange, since in the OT, Obi-Wan, Vader, and Yoda all have dialogue that indicates they had no expectation that Luke was going to get revelations about the past from the saber itself.
• Why does Finn need help against TR-8R? To show that just having the saber (and a lifetime of combat training!) doesn't automatically make you a badass.
• Rey can resist Kylo's mind probe and turn it around on him; Poe can't.
• Rey does the mind trick exactly as Ben did, with no prompting or instruction, for no reason. Also escaping alone from a situation where Poe needed help.
• Finn is again used as "another leading brand" for Rey in the lightsaber duel. Kylo is approaching; he pushes Rey into a tree; Finn fights and is defeated. Why? Kylo or a First order trooper could have pulled a blaster and shot Finn. Kylo could have pushed Finn into the tree, causing him to get knocked out and drop the saber. Kylo could have done his TK trick to force Finn's arm down. No, Finn is placed in a position to fight specifically to show that even injured, Kylo is still a threat. All this stuff about "Oh, he was hurt, his guts are practically hanging out of his side, she tired him out" is such a false trail. The entire reason for the Finn-Kylo fight is to ensure that we do not have that explanation available. The movie is clearly trying to give credit for Rey's win in the duel to her. Not to Chewie and his bowcaster. Not to Finn. To whatever happened when she closed her eyes and whispered "Force...." Does any other Force-sensitive girl in the galaxy destroy Kylo and win that fight with zero saber training and zero Jedi training? Of course not!

Rey's abilities do not, themselves, break Star Wars. It's OK that she can do the mind trick. It's OK for her to win a lightsaber duel. Yes, in-universe it's weird that a kid who grew up in the junkyard turned out like a SEAL/wizard hybrid, but, you know... action-hero privileges, right? But that's only if she had some kind of training. The movie is so mathematical in its creation of scenarios where Rey succeeded where others failed. So ruthless in its use of other characters in support of the idea that Rey Is Just That Good. She is the magnet, the other characters are her iron filings. It's not enough that someone taught her to fly, because then that person would get partial credit. So she has to do it on her first time flying the Falcon, with no copilot and busted weapons. It's not enough that someone gave her Jedi training or lightsaber instruction, because that person would receive partial credit. That is never good enough. She has to be entirely self-taught. She has to receive allthe glory, with no portion spared for a teacher or helper.

So in that way, in a narrative sense, in the sense that the rest of the movie was made less so that Rey could be made more, yes, she is very overpowered.

 

Anakin loses 1st duel(a handicap duel with Obi-wan there also) and gets arm hacked off
Luke loses 1st duel(after being trained by the most powerful jedi ever) gets hand hacked off.
Rey whips Kylo in her 1st duel because of the force awakening in her somehow(Still have no idea why she needs Luke when she is already mastering mind tricks, saber fighting by herself)

 

I honestly think if the gender roles were reversed in this film, this criticism would vanish. She is the lead of the movie. It's only natural that she has the lions share of the triumphs. This is how virtually every lead in a genre movie works. You don't have the lead character be rescued by the mentor or defeated by the villain in their first adventure. I don't see why it's a problem that she is very self-sufficient because that is hard-wired into her character and backstory, as is the fact that she is clearly very strong with the Force (although we don't yet know exactly where or who she has come from).

Here's a question for some - if in episode 8 we discover that she is Rey Skywalker, would those who feel she is overpowered compared to Luke and Anakin still have this issue, or would they that her power is therefore a natural extension of her heritage?

Another question - do people consider that Vader and Dooku are both fully trained and not wounded, compared to Kylo, who is not fully trained, wounded and not trying to kill her?

And do you accept that it is explicitly stated in both ANH and TFA that the force can partially control one's actions and guide someone who lets the Force in?

 

Gender has nothing to do with it. If Luke beat Vader after just leaving Uncle Owen's farm it would have been dumb.

 

Luke was being told how to do it though: "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." "Stretch out with your feelings"

I've only seen TFA once, but it just looked like a bit of a stretch for Rey to sit there and think, "I'll just try this.... hey it works!" That didn't quite work for me but as I said, overall, I think she was pitched about right.

 

Exactly.

Luke didn't beat Vader in ANH
Anakin didn't beat Maul in TPM

Heck even in the 2nd movie Luke couldn't beat Vader and Anakin couldn't beat Dooku.

It literally took each of them 3 movies to be good enough to take down a skilled dark sider.

Granted Kylo is no Vader or Maul or Dooku but as a dark sider with many years of experience he's no pushover. At least he shouldn't have been.

 

I think it does, I'm afraid. I think people (not all, but some) hold Rey to a different standard. I see complaints about Finn being beaten at the expense of Rey defeating Kylo, and that's the kind of deal that happens 99% of the time where the lead is male and the support/ co-lead is female and yet this normally incurs no such reaction.

Also, compare for like. Rey does not defeat Kylo straight after leaving Jakku. She beats him at the end and various reasons as to why this happens have already been outlined and exist within the film. Rey is not Luke. And the whole point of Kylo's character is that is not Vader.

It is clearly shown that Rey is an innate match for Kylo. He also clearly wounded during the fight. It is also clearly stated that Kylo is not fully trained. And he is also under orders to being Rey to Snoke. Whether he intends to do that or recruit Rey as an ally against Snoke, he is not trying to kill her. He also clearly has her on the back foot until she remembers Maz's words on the Force and she lets the Force in. Had she heard the disembodied voice of Luke or Old Ben or Yoda telling her to let go and let the Force flow through her, this debate would pretty much be moot - but instead we have to infer that when she closes her eyes, she's remembering Maz's words and doing just that. By the time Kylo realises what's happening he's now on the back foot. He underestimated her and it cost him. I doubt he will make the same mistake next time.

Both Dooku and Vader are fully trained and in rude health against opponents making mistakes. It's also crucial that their field come in the second film, where the characters can and arguably should be bested. If you want to compare the moment of unexpected/ against the odds triumph, then the fairer equivalent is Anakin and Luke winning their respective space battles.

 

Nothing Rey does seems out of place to me. She is exceptional, no doubt about that, but then, so were Luke and Anakin. Anakin was by far the most inexplicable capable protagonist in the saga. But his capability is waved off as him being the Chosen One. I still found it a bit too much to swallow for a 9-year-old, but WTH, let's go with it. I think Rey's abilities are pretty close to where Luke was in ANH, though the skill set is displayed slightly differently.

I mean Luke DOES kind of beat Vader. Vader is supposedly the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, but Luke, a complete starfighter rookie, manages to avoid getting the snot blown out of him to the point Vader remarks that, "the Force is strong in this one."

 

What was the time span between leaving Jakku and defeating Kylo? not long enough. Obi-wan was afraid of Luke facing Vader because he felt the force but could not control it even after being trained by Yoda. I guess Rey didn't have to go through that training also.

 

"The Force Awakens". This is the title of the movie, and already gives some hints about what is happening.

The Force is calling to Rey. This is very different from what the old Jedi did, which was to call to the Force.

Also, lets be honest here: Luke NEVER was a badass like Anakin. He managed to defeat Vader only because he stepped into the Dark Side when he used his hatred, and stopped as soon as he chopped Vader's hand.

 

NB; I chose "overpowered" as it's the most applicable, neutral term used by people who think Rey's ability was too high, or that things came too easily for her - the term is widely used by both sides of the debate, and less contentious than Mary Sue.

 

Luke was able to avoid Vader thanks to Han. Vader was locked on to him and ready to blow him up until Han came along for the save.

 

Within this debate, we can't just say "not long enough"; we need to give reasons as to why it wasn't wrong enough, which take into account the existing disagreements of this idea

 

Finn shouldn't have lasted more than 2 seconds vs Kylo. The fact that he put up any fight against a trained dark sider was beyond ridiculous. In fact Finn should have never touched a lightsaber throughout the movie. It really diminishes the lore of lightsabers.

Before they were a mythical weapon that only jedi and sith used.

Now they are a cool toy for anyone to hack around with.

Yes Grevious used lightsabers but he was specifically trained by Dooku to be a jedi killer. Rey and Finn weren't trained by any jedi on how to use lightsabers unless Ep 8 has some big reveal on Rey's history.

 

In the end, yes, but he evaded Vader for some time before Han came in. That's what the whole "The Force is strong" comment was about. And let's face it, Kylo Ren is no Darth Vader (at least not yet). In fact, Rey correctly identifies that his greatest fear is that he never will be,

Except that he isn't completely trained, was pretty seriously wounded, and is an emotional mess. Once Finn tagged him, Kylo ended that fight in like one move.

 

Again, you're wilfully ignoring the fact that Kylo Ren is patently, not Vader.

Kylo is not fully trained, is wounded, is under-estimating Rey, is not trying to kill her, and Rey is clearly written as his innate match. This is not father vs son any more. Nor master vs apprentice. This is rival vs rival - possibly siblings, possibly bloodline vs bloodline. Equals in terms of potential. We haven't see this dynamic before. I suspect we'll see their training parallel each other moving forwards.

And Rey will clearly need to learn to control her power moving forwards. She is obviously tapping the dark side towards the end of her duel.

 

Dooku was 100% healthy when he won against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Also, Dooku was the master of Qui-Gon, who was the master of Obi-Wan, who was the master of Anakin. Dooku's master was Yoda himself, and he is able to fight Yoda.
Vader was 100% healthy when he won against Luke.
Kylo was no more than a badly hurt apprentice when he lost to Rey.

There is a world of difference here.

 

Finn doesn't last two seconds against Kylo once Kylo decides to end their fight. Kylo is cocky and dominant initially, but it's also written into his character that is raw, volatile and anything but the finished article so his cockiness gets the better of him. When Finn gets in a lucky shot, Kylo ends the fight with two blows. It's all mapped out in the film.

 

Rey clearly hasn't gone through training in the same way. But can we say "not long enough" when we're presented with the central mystery of Rey's origins and where her ability comes from?
I'd argue that in that context, the argument against is better done as a criticism of mystery box style storytelling, than as a judgement about her power, since we don't know from where it comes.

It's almost certainly not that Rey is just so great that she finds the force easy; if that turns out to be th explanation, I'll take up residence in the haters cave. So bearing that in mind, if we can; that it's extremely likely there will be a revelation of sorts, can we agree that her character is to some degree likely to be special (as some characters in Star Wars have been known to be) and that her quick awakening of skill is directly attributable to this?