Lit Timothy Zahn give's response to Mara issue I emailed him with

It's just the way Star Wars has always been. I prefer it to be honest. It could get really weird if they went into too much detail . . .

 

It isn't that sexual activity is on display. It's that it is being portrayed by a 30 year old woman sexually abusing a teenager that's the problem.

 

. . . really?
this again?

I don't know how Ben will ever recover from the emotional scars he got from that horrific experience.

 

Let me ask you this: why do you find it worse for the Ben/Tahiri scene to be shown than, say, Jacen torturing a prisoner to death?
Your entitled to your opinion, but I can't understand it.

The only thing I can think of is that it has a sexual nature.

 

You're suggesting that I find one more despicable than the other without first hearing what I have to say about the latter scene.
I also hate it. Because of how spiteful it is. The only reason that the scene with Jacen and Mirta Gev was put in the book was so that Denning could try to ruin any chances of Traviss writing a series set after Legacy of the Force. While the first presented Denning's disgusting habits as a writer, the second showed his pettiness when dealing with other author's characters, a pettiness he would continue to perpetuate into Fate of the Jedi where he turned the Mandalorians into chumps to get back at Traviss for her writing tendencies towards making them supersoldiers.

 

Can't really argue with any of that lol. I'm a bit biased in that I've always loved TD's Star Wars works and KT's make me bored and annoyed if I attempt to get through them, and I never actually considered that those plot points in Invincible was his attempts to sabotage her characters and settings. But it makes sense. I'm not complaining though, I much prefer the Mandalorians being chumps than some of the nonsensical reasons KT's books invent for them to be better than Jedi.

btw don't think I didn't notice that you changed the subject

EDIT: oh also when I said "Jacen torturing a prisoner to death" I was referring to Ailyn Vel in Bloodlines, sorry for confusion.

 

Except that we were discussing Troy Denning, so your moving the goalposts to a Traviss work shows you were trying to change the subject just as much.

 

I thought we were discussing the scene? I'll ask the question again:

why do you find it worse for the Ben/Tahiri scene to be shown than, say, Jacen torturing a prisoner to death, or any such other number of evil things that bad characters do in Star Wars books?

 

I agree that she advances him sexually. I agree that it's a bad thing. But straight out abuse? She actually asks Ben if she should continue - and when he tells her to stop, she does so. And there is no doubt in the scene that Tahiri's acting wrong in advancing him. I do understand why many people don't like this scene, but I do think some of the reactions are a bit over the top. Personally, I find it worse that Jacen tortured Ben than that Tahiri does what she does. The difference to me, is that Jacen as bad guy is expected to torture people - Tahiri is... well not expected to hunt teenagers.

 

Well she isn't, Where else in the whole series does she act like that?

 

I assume you are ignoring the question because you have no answer. That's ok.
As long as we can agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with the scene, and that some people just don't like it for personal reasons, then I'm happy.

 

Exactly. There are literally 50+ scenes in LOTF alone where people do much worse things (some by Ben himself lol) and no one complains about those scenes.

 

Pfft, screw that.The scene is useless from a narrative standpoint. Ben has already been gratuitously tortured at that point and trying to pile more trauma is just crude from a writing standpoint. Why don't you have Tahiri drag in a kitten to bit the head off of to club the reader over the head some more?

And, it's yet another female villain who uses her "feminine wiles" to do her job and having any menace as a villain undermined for it. The go to trope when a writer wants to double down on genre fiction sleaziness.

 

Dude, I'm not arguing that it was a brilliant insightful scene that was vital to the story.
I'm just responding to thoughtless and laughable statements by some that the scene is "not ok" to be in a Star Wars book.

 

Yes, because not posting in the middle of the bloody night after I've gone to bed means I'm dodging a question. Sorry for not being up 24 hours to argue with a guy trying to convince me that child molestation belongs in Star Wars.

 

You made an unrelated post 20 minutes after the question . . . you were obviously up lol
But if you don't have anything sensible or relevent to say I'd rather you ignore the question that you still haven't answered (and we both know you can't), then waste your precious time turning the discussion into some kind of personal attack . . . and still not contributing anything to the discussion

 

Okay, fine. You want to know why I don't have an issue with torture and death, but I do with rape and molestation? Because one is indicative of the series (it's called Star Wars), and the other one grinds the entire story to a halt (it's not Star Whores). You show me a film, or a book where there is a scene where a person is graphically depicted being raped and not have it stand out as the most shocking scene in the film.

Star Wars has always had violence and genocide. However, it has always approached the subject matter from a romanticized standpoint. People fall over dead from single shots. Fighters zoom by and explode in fiery conflagrations. People are tortured but tastefully cut away from the explicit violence. It implies a seriousness to the situation, and it is a great example of showing "less is more". When Han is tortured, we cut away to Boba Fett and Lando staring at each other. Not a word of dialogue is spoken between them, but even with a helmet, we are able to see the emotions of both characters and how the scene is affecting them. Lando is visibly distraught at what is happening, while Fett remains impassive, indicating his ruthless nature as a bounty hunter.

We don't have scenes where a Rebel gets his leg blown off by an artillery strike while his friends desperately try to halt the bleeding while screaming for a medic. We don't have X-Wing pilots drifting through space as their blood boils and their skin is fried by sun radiation. Violence is part of star wars. REALISTIC depictions of violence are not.. Like I said, romanticized content.

So why should we then have a scene where a thirty year old straps a teenager down to a table, dresses like a prostitute, and then proceeds to play with his penis while trying to seduce him? Why should I have to go into that much detail to describe the scene? Because that is exactly what was described in the scene. It's bad enough that pedophilia is involved in the first place, but to make it so explicit and detailed makes it all the more uncomfortable and out of place. Denning indulges in ultraviolence, and it isn't just the rape scene that bothers me about his work. He will have a man get his arm cut off, splatter blood around the room, have a Jedi be torn apart and posed in a public garden as a warning, bomb out a Star Destroyer bridge and then describe the operators clutching their intestines, and end a series by dumping a syringe stabbed body in a goddamn incinerator.

It has no place in Star Wars. Even Traviss, who you could argue took a more realistic approach to violence in the franchise, showed restraint. I think the most violent thing she showed was Darman stabbing a Weeqway in the jugular with a knife, and that took little more than a sentence to describe. It was quick, shocking, and effective. It wasn't excessive, like Denning's obsession with fluids flying around a combat area.

My point being that there is a difference between somebody getting shot, and somebody dying. Star Wars rarely goes beyond the former. The same can be applied to sexual or torture situations. Implications are usually enough, because indulgence will grind your whole story to a halt and then become the most "memorable" moment to people. And then to casually throw such a serious incident completely away within the next chapter makes you ask "what was the point of that?", followed by "if they needed to show a scene to make Tahiri bad, why did they need to show it like that?"

It never has to be rape, but the minute you make it rape, it makes this black hole in the middle of your story where everything is orbiting around it.

 

Wow nice essay. I appreciate the effort on your part.

The issue I have is defining what happened as “rape and molestation”. I mean, lets be honest . . . Ben was barely even uncomfortable, Tahiri had no idea what she was doing and it was more than anything a comedic series of events. Comparing it to “graphic rape” is absurd.

I agree, however that it’s unusual for Star Wars EU to have sexually explicit scenes, but I certainly wouldn’t count that as one. But I understand if that is the reason people have for disliking the scene. They’re welcome to their opinions.

If that is how you prefer your Star Wars EU then I can understand why you aren’t a fan of Troy Denning’s writing lol

I can understand that people feel uncomfortable because Ben is 14 years old, and Tahiri is like 30, but as has been said many times in this thread, Ben wasn’t too upset about it and it was more of a joke than anything.

Seems more like clumsy seduction than “rape and molestation”.

In regards to Denning’s writing, there’s nothing wrong with you not liking it. Just like there’s nothing wrong with people who do like it. And just because you don’t like it or it doesn’t fit with your classical view of Star Wars doesn’t mean that it’s wrong or inappropriate.

It obviously wasn’t a very serious incident, as shown by its effect on the character. I have a feeling that was somewhat intentional on the part of the author . . . showing that Tahiri isn’t comfortable with what she’s doing.

Good thing there wasn’t rape then.

Like I said, I can understand if graphic violence and mildly sexually suggestive scenes aren’t your cup of tea.

But you’re much better off going with something along the lines of “I didn’t like it” or “It doesn’t fit my view of how Star Wars should be” or “I hate Troy Denning’s writing”. That way it’s obvious you are expressing your opinion.

But saying or implying something like “It is wrong and not ok for it to be in a Star Wars book” just ends up sounding a bit silly and self righteous.

and for the record I love Troy Denning's Star Wars writing, and apart from the butchering of Jacen's (and to a lesser extent Tahiri's) characters in LOTF he has done no wrong as far as I'm concerned.

 

*sigh* You've completely missed the point of everything I've been saying. No one is "right" or "wrong".
Different people have different opinions. Just because you don't liek something doesn't mean it is "inappropriate" or "not ok to be in a star wars book".
It's pretty simple. Very ironic you should mention an elementary school attitude because that is exactly the way you sound.
"I think this therefore you're wrong hurr hurr".

 

For future reference:
Saying that something is "not OK to be in a Star Wars book" is a pretty big call
Hence the big deal made about it.

You'd be much better off saying something like "I don't like things like that in Star Wars books".
It's a lot more sensible, and you'd sound more like an adult.

Please don't take offense, or get upset. I'm just trying to help you grow as a person.
We all need to learn these lessons one day.

 

this has been hilarious I don't even remember what we were talking about anymore

 

It wasn't pedophilia and it wasn't rape. The scene is already gross enough the way it is, we don't need to do Denning's work for him.

 

I've not got much time, but I'll say this:
The scene isn't rape. As uncomfortable it is to read, it's not in the league of genocide or violent deaths of individuals which are common themes of Star Wars.

I think it's a curiously American mindset that means graphic violence is okay, but implied sex/sexuality isn't.