Lit Timothy Zahn making Darth Vader look a fool ! (spoilers for both books)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Gorefiend and Esg like this.
  2. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Well there goes my last bit of respect for her.

    =((

    Surely it was pretty obvious the Jedi had to choose between accepting the clone army, and millions dying and suffering? What were they supposed to do?
    Lady_Misty, Gamiel and Gorefiend like this.
  3. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Not quite, it's hammered over the head in various comics and other books how important and special she is, so it's not simply a POV thing.

    I agree it was not always that way, in TTT it was definitely just a POV thing but after that it got changed, mainly due to the authors loves of the character, and his confirmation of this in various interviews
  4. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    And that's what Traviss doesn't address at all, instead casting a choice of war in terms of perfect morality! If war kicks off, perfect morality is dead on the floor, we're into imperfect morality where there are few truly "good" options.

    The shame of it is that Hard Contact remains a good book, with restrained criticism of the Jedi which works better for being restrained. But after that? It's a very fragmented vision.

    Then again, her background is journalism which can be reduced to:

    You! This is wrong, what you going to do about this?
    <person does something>
    That's wrong too - you need to fix it.
    <person does something else>
    No good! Do something else!
    Person snaps back: And that is !?
    Not my job, not my problem, it's yours!

    Obviously, there are journalists that do far more than this, but what I've sketched above I'd class as the "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!" brigade, they're the armchair generals, expert economists, superb politicians - if they but wished to be, but prefer to sit in judgement of all and play judge, jury and executioner.
  5. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Lol at the summary of journalism. That is so true.

    I agree Hard Contact was a good book. I can get past the anti-jedi bias though, but the thing i couldn't get through in her later RC/IC books was just that it was so repetitive and nothing ever happened! The same issues about the clones/jedi over and over and over again in every book. In Imperial Commando there was about 5 pages of interesting action/events in the whole book . . . and the rest was characters who all had the exact same twisted opinions and viewpoint being mad at the world in soliloquy.
  6. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Well, after The Joiner King - in the no. 1 spot for the way it threw the interesting potential of the post-NJO world right out the nearest window - Triple Zero has the dubious honour of occupying the no. 2 spot on my list of all-time SW EU stinkers!
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I noticed that Traviss had an anti-Jedi bias even in the days when I had more of an anti-Jedi bias.
    Esg likes this.
  8. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    The fact that Traviss went so far with the anti-Jedi stuff before leaving kinda sucks. Because it seems like FOTJ could've used a dissenting voice on the creative team when the Jedi are doings things they can actually be called out for but no one does because the narrative was skewed towards the Jedi always being right.

    It always felt it was pretty hypocritical of a Mandalorian to complain about Jedi. Jedi take kids away from their families? The Mandalorians sometimes do that too, except they wait till the families get blown up first. The Jedi train and indoctrinate the children? Mandalorians drag their kids into warzones all the time, and we don't exactly see Mando kids complaining about Mando values.

    I could think of alot better mouthpieces for Jedi criticism than the guys who train their children to kill to maintain a homesteader's standard of living.
    ILNP, Jedi Ben and kataja like this.
  9. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5


    Were is that quote from?
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I think it was Kina Ha, the Kaminoan Jedi. I think.
  11. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    That's who, I want to know were
  12. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Imperial Commando: 501st, I think. Unless I am totally off-base and Kina didn't say it.
  13. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Who is she talking to? I have hard to see the Skiratas group allowing her to open her mouth since she is a kaminoan and jedi and the last part also role out the imp's
  14. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I believe it was in one of those quote-paragraphs at the beginning of each chapter that Traviss famously puts in her books. I'm not sure who she's talking to. I'll go check my copy and get back to you.

    EDIT: Okay, so I checked. I was right. But it does not say who Kina Ha is talking to. Given her company, it would be either Arligan Zey, Scout, or Bardan Jusik, and I doubt she'd talk like that to Scout and since Jusik's not a Jedi anymore, probably not him. So, probably she was talking to Zey–or, to make it more interesting, maybe this quote is months later and she's talking to Djinn Altis or one of his Jedi.
    Last edited by Revanfan1, Aug 22, 2013
  15. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks:)
    and now I want to know how Kina Ha heard the story about Etain Tur-Mukan
  16. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    She regularly talked to Zey, who talked to Skirata and Jusik. She also talked to Nyreen, I think. Even some of the other women like Besany or Parja. The clones and Kal kind of gave her the cold shoulder, though.
  17. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    She was talking to scout
  18. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Are you sure? It didn't say so in the paragraph's attribution. Although I'm not doubting you, I just want to know how you know this. It was just attributed to "Kina Ha, allegedly thousands of years old" or something like that. Not to whom she was speaking.
  19. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    It's not clear who she's talking to or why, the same way it's not clear how she would know anything about Etain to be any kind of authority. It's just authorial-voice BS proclaiming Etain's sainthood and talking down the Jedi in the lamest, most contrived way possible.
  20. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I think someone should rename the thread "The Why I hate Karen Traviss Thread" . The current title has become false advertising.
  21. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Well, it basically started as a "Why I hate Tim Zahn/Mara Jade/Thrawn" and evolved. Better would be to retitle it "Why I hate X author and their creations!"
  22. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Its quite clear that morally questionable acts, no matter the circumstances, are evil acts to Karen Traviss, which is why she vilifies the Jedi and Catherine Halsey from Halo.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Aug 23, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Traviss's characters do a few morally questionable things themselves- justifying it by it being "for the good of the clones".
    Lady_Misty and Esg like this.
  24. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Yes, but when the protagonists do it, there was no other choice and they guilt about it, but when other characters do it, it was a moral event horizon.
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Lots of Traviss hate here. I don't like the OJO either. Instead of relying on diplomacy when a couple spies are captured and to be executed, they start a war and send millions of slaves in as canon fodder.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Aug 23, 2013