Tired of NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by rogue9, Apr 24, 2001.

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  1. rogue9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 1
    Anyone else tired of the NJO. I really can't get into the story arc and am tired of reading about the Vong. I don't see them as being anywhere near as dynamic as a threat from the Unkown regions could have proved to be. There was enough potential for baddies in the Unknown Regions to avoid creating this race.

    I have no desire to learn anything about these one dimensional baddies.

    Tired of seeing Luke portrayed as a.....
    wuss??? though I can understand how authors are trying to make him obi-wan-ish.

    Rogue 9
  2. saberwielder76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2001
    star 4
    I hear ya, rogue9. The Unknown Regions would have made for a great set of stories. The Vong are boring to me. And the whole all powerful aliens from another galaxy seems too much like Star Trek. And I totally agree with you about Luke. He is still my favorite, but they have really butchered his character.
  3. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Yup, I sure am.

    I think it is a sure sign of a weak series when a thread such as this is started every few weeks.

    The last couple of books (Balance Point and Conquest) were pretty good, but the entire NJO concept and execution made them weak stories. BP was hampered by the previous storylines (the waffling Jacen and the estranged Han and Leia, as well as the Vong) and by publishing decisions (Han and Leia's story left hanging with the cancellation of the Friedman books)

    Conquest suffered greatly with the cancellation of the Friedman books. Apparently, Conquest was to be a longer, more involved story but had to be curtailed because of time restraints.

    I sure wish DelRey would realize that intelligent readers (which the majority of the Bantam fans were) can wait a bit for a better book. I would have been happy to wait many more months for a better kick off novel than Vector Prime was, I would have been happy to wait another 6 months or so for BP, giving KT the time to develop a longer story. And I sure would have waited until the original release date for a real adult Conquest rather than getting a glorified YJK book. Note:I have nothing against Anakin being the main character, it's the fact that his is the ONLY story in this book that makes me feel like I'm reading a Jr. High book, a book for people who haven't had enough reading experience to follow multiple plot line. I'd be just as ticked if it was all Luke or Corran or any other character.

    Books like Hero's Trial and BP (even if it was too short) show that a good writer CAN write a good adventure story, despite hackneyed villains and a ho hum plot. Books like VP, Ruin and Jedi Eclipse show what usually happens with these elements.

    Conquest shows that the potential for a good book can negated with editorial/publishing decisions.


    The big problem with the NJO is that the whole thing is not a story driven series developed by creative authors with a little editorial guidance. Instead it is a marketing driven enterprise developed by a committee with just a little authors' input.

  4. Master-Omaj-Kadub Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2000
    star 4
    I love the storyline, but I feel there is much more that can be explored about the Vong.
    Being from an unknow universe. Having bio-technical weaponary. Appearing as a barbaric and primative race. These are some key tools that I believe the writes have explored much on....
  5. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    "Being from an unknow universe. Having bio-technical weaponary. Appearing as a barbaric and primative race."
    These are the things that make the Vong such a generic, hackneyed villain to those of us who have read a lot of SciFi or Fantasy.
    The first year's worth of books did little to raise the Vong above the level of juvenile literature. Even with the insights in Vong behavior from BP and Conquest, the Vong still fall short of a "good" villain.
  6. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I'm sure Del Rey readers are just as intelligent as Bantam readers, Dewlanna.
  7. saberwielder76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2001
    star 4
    I agree Dewlanna. Nothing I have read about the Vong in any of these books has done anything to make me see them as interesting.
  8. doctordrinkalot Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    At first I hated the whole idea of the vong. I thought it was a stupid way for our heros to prove themselves once again. After conquest I'm not sure anymore. I don't know if i'm starting to find the vong a real challenge for the GFFA or if I'm just getting used to them. Some parts of the NJO are well written and interesting and exciting, but i don't think the vong fit into this category. However, like I said, after conquest, something clicked with me and I'm not sure anymore. i guess you could say i'm torn on this issue.
  9. Santee Ordrin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 6
    Actually, from reading Conquest, I am starting to get this sense, and will wonders never cease, agree with Dewlanna. Before I actually enjoyed teh series, now I am slowly losing interest in it. It just doesn't capture that feeling of wonder that previous books did.
  10. Santee Ordrin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 6
    Stupid friggin double post! And from an error within the snowboard system. My friggin post was chosen to be the victim of the deadlocked process.!:mad:
  11. rogue9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 1
    I have enjoyed some of the books, and some of the story lines for books have been good.
    I guess I got spoiled by the EU characters - especially those created by Stackpole and Allston. Dont get me wrongo - I enjoy the new authors that have been brought into the SW universe, but I would rather read 5 novels about wedge and tycho than a dulogy of fair representation of han & leia. Lucas dev. the main characters to the point that authors "plug and chug" them into story lines and it just passes (sometimes barely). what they have done with luke is borderline disgracefull.

    as you can tell by my login - I'm a huge Corran fan and even IF stackpole doesn't come back - who here wouldn't read another author do a duology/trilogy about Corran bringing along a group of Jedi's discovered from Rostek's hidden files???

  12. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    AniSS said "I'm sure Del Rey readers are just as intelligent as Bantam readers, Dewlanna. "

    They probably are, but Delrey sure doesn't treat them that way.
  13. MaraJade_00 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2000
    There are a few things I don't like about NJO. . .
    ~ What happened to innocent Kyp? I can understand him changing, but if you go back to read the books after Han found him, he wasn't like that. Remember, he was upset because of the whole Suncrusher thing?!?!
    ~ Chewie died. Okay, okay, I know a main character had to die sometimes, but I don't think it should have been Chewie!! If they had to kill someone, how about Borsk Fey'Lei ( spelling? )
    ~ The whole organized bit. That just bugs me. Why can't they just let it run unorganized and crazy still? I liked it better that way!! ( And to be honest, I'm not very happy with the authors they chose. . . )
    ~ What is with the covers? We go from nice hand drawn covers to these horrible computer-drawn ( at least they look computer drawn. . . ) covers on the NJO books!!! Ahhhh!
  14. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Del Rey treats its readers just fine. Vector Prime was a solid novel, and Balance Point was about as good. I can't imagine how Ms. Tyers could have improved much on her book (which I read in a single night), and Del Rey and LFL were clearly satisfied with Mr. Salvatore's effort.

    Conquest worked great as a solo Anakin adventure, just like Rogue Planet did for his grandpapa, or I, Jedi did for Corran Horn. The beauty of a long series like the New Jedi Order is that it has room for both solo adventures (to make a bad pun) and adventures that handle several plot lines at once. I enjoy both styles, and I'm tempted to claim that "intelligent" or "discerning" readers could accept both approaches. I don't need to constantly bombarded with a single approach to writing Star Wars fiction, any more than I need EVERY Star Wars novel to feature tons of action.

    As for what's supposed to be missing in Conquest, the only part I've heard anything about is a small segue that involved Jaina and Jacen finding Corran Horn. I'd have enjoyed reading it, but in a novel that belongs to Anakin, I really don't miss it, either. Likewise with Ruin--I could have used more story, but basically, I enjoyed what I got.

    Nor did I find the story particularly like a JJK or YJK book (I've read all 20 of them--Conquest was considerably more satisfying). The story is more akin to Splinter of the Mind's Eye, or Rogue Planet--novels largely contained on single planets that focus on young characters making their ways through hostile environments (perhaps that's why I enjoyed Conquest so much, since RP and SotME [books by first-rate science fiction writers] are two favorites. Tahiri and Anakin both matured considerably over the course of the book, far more than they ever did in a single JJK book. Nonetheless, I enjoyed seeing Tahiri and Ikrit again. I'm especially glad someone finally paid attention to the old Jedi Master.

    Not only am I not tired of the NJO, I find myself enjoying the long epic just fine. The story develops at roughly the pace I'd expect for a twenty-odd book epic. The Vong get more interesting, not less, with each book. The character development of the Solo kids--the core of the NJO--proceeds in a cool way. The political and military dynamics keep the story hopping. I do wish to see more of Luke, but I fully expect to, so I'm not disappointed by his relatively small role in Conquest. He seems to have a much more proactive role in Rebirth, and I'm looking forward to it.
  15. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    What I'm annoyed about is how they start off plotlines and then completely waste their potential. They owe it to the fans to carry through with the storylines. They start them, but then they graze over or ignore them completely. The estrangement plotline between Han and Leia became *completely* pointless in that it was just solved in a page and a half in Balance Point and then they cancel the books which hold the full reunion. Good potential, wasted oppurtunity. Why bother separating them at all if they didn't want to spotlight their relationship?

    Leia's injuries were a cliffhanger that the fans deserved to read up on. She should have gone through major character changes, and her and Han's relationship should have changed from it. By completely ignoring this cliffhanger in Conquest, it makes the whole trauma pointless and unnecessary and only there for shock value.
  16. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    And what exactly is wrong with some shock value? There was absolutely none in the Bantam books. The NJO is simply more realistic. Sometimes conflicts are solved extremely quickly, such as Han and Leia's seperation.

    While you guys claim the NJO is boring, many others thought the Bantam books were also boring and always a rehash of the previous book. Why can't you just deal with it? Nobody is forcing you to read these new books, so if you don't like them, don't read them! It only makes sense. Ever since the Star Wars books had begun to be released, there was always those fans that disliked certain story arcs. The little dislike with the NJO story is not unusual, it's just that those people seem to enjoy getting attention by constantly posting about their dislike. Well that's tough; deal with it.
  17. Bodo-Baas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    I can't stand the NJO. I've read only the two hardbacks, and they were the worst SW novels I have ever read. I wish the whole idea would just be trashed, the series cancelled, and an apology issued that said essentially, "Forget all of that NJO. It was all a bad joke. Now for the real story."

    A good idea to base future stories on are the Emperor's dying words in Empire's End: "You think you have won? If I am annihilated, my curse will be upon Skywalker blood forever!" This would give us a dark storyline that felt like SW: We could give the Empire a rest, and explore Palpatine's curse, ancient Sith ruins (such as those on Korriban), ancient Jedi temples (as on Ossus), etc. The Jedi and the Sith have histories going back tens of thousands of years. Think about all the potential there. The Force and its cults have only had their surfaces scratched. There is so much to discover. In other words, explore the STAR WARS MYTHOLOGY! The NJO is like SW meets Frankenstein, or something. The whole thing is just ridiculous.
  18. keiran_helcyan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 1999
    star 4
    I was getting very bored with the NJO general plot synopsis, until Conquest came that is. Maybe I'm an old fashioned romantic, but I like to see some advancement made by the good guys, and the NJO had gotten too dark for the SW universe. Now that the tide is (hopefully) starting to be turned, I can tolerate the series, but I too would have prefered adventures in the Unknown Territories to this mess.
  19. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    DelRey treats its readers as if they can't read past a 7th grade level. The vocabulary is simple, the page count is on the sparse side, and the concepts are dumbed down (Vong=EVIL. Solo Kids=GOOD.) Stark white and stark black are the only colors with which DelRey lets its authors paint.

    DelRey treats its readers as if they can't follow at the most an "A" story and a "B" story - in other words, the same story depth as your average TV episode. Only TV episodes get on the average 45 script pages and 46 minutes to tell their story - a much tighter space constraint than a novel.

    The Bantam books were far from perfect. I have to admit, I'd take Conquest (even thought I lost interest and lent it to a friend long before finishing it) over, say, Children of the Jedi. But at least the best of the Bantam books had sophisticated vocabulary, a complex syntax. The page counts were hefty. And the readers were treated as if they could actually keep track of more than one plot at a time. (note for AniSS: for this discussion, the Bantam books are defined as the ADULT books. At least the YJK and JJK books were labeled for their age groups. Conquest was not - it's being sold as an adult novel even though IMHO it is a YA in disguise. I hope Scholastic doesn't find out, since they have that license ;-D).

    And as much I didn't like CotJ, at least Hambley wove some deep themes into her material.

    Which is precisely what the NJO is missing. What are the themes of these books? What are we supposed to take away from these books? What comment is the story making on the human condition?

    The films were about redemption and hope, about evil's temptation and what it means to be a true hero.

    Where is any of that in these books? Again, what are the themes?

    All I see in the NJO is a bunch of videogame violence and pyrrhic victories.

    C'mon, DelRey, show some guts. If your theme is that bad things happen to good people, which is the only theme I can even make a stab at seeing in these books, then for frell's sake have the good guys decisively lose. You keep trying to have your cake and eat it, too, which is highly unsatifying from a story viewpoint - and boring to boot.

    No wonder, as Dew points out, this topic is resurrected by someone new every few weeks. Empty entertainment is like junk food - it might taste great the first few times, but ultimately it leaves you malnourished.

    Santee - I KNEW you were intelligent! j/k :-D
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    "I think it is a sure sign of a weak series when a thread such as this is started every few weeks."

    So Dewlanna, you take as a sure sign that the same people saying the same things ad nauseum is proof of a weak series? In that case, just for you, how about I create a "Tired of Thrawn Trilogy" thread every few weeks so that you will accept it as a weak series, based on your own standard.

    Hopefully your standards are a bit higher.
  21. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Funny, how almost everyones complaints about the NJO, are almost my same complaints about Star Wars Movies.

    I generally am a fan of lowbrow style of story telling, which all has a "cheese Factor". I just find it fun and entertaining. When I want "excellent" and "Intellectual" reading material, I will go and read "the classics", which I love as well. But when I want to be entertained Star Wars is good fun.

    I'm not sure, I like what some people implying about people who read star wars books in this thread. Some border on flametory. Infering people who read star wars, or NJO are of less Intelligence, than those that read Bantam. Personally I don't understand, since Star Wars as an Ideal is mostly of the Lowbrow story telling genre. It was and still shows it's ties back to "Flash Gordonesqe" serial movies from the 30's. Something Lucas Said over and over he was trying to accomplish when he didn't get the rights to do his own Flash Gordon movie. Something the Critiques gave negative reviews about for almsot every SW movie when they first came out.

    So if lucas admits his movies are of the lowbrow storytelling, that doesn't make the books anymore really. Though a few do shine through as being Teensy bit more than common lowbrow.

    So by your arguement, basically anyone who reads or watches star wars has low intelligence. I couldn't disagree more. People read star wars to be entertained, not to gain a philosophy on life, or to be educated. There are other books for that, books written by learned scholars, and story tellers from long ago and even now. But star wars is fictional "serial universe", and doesn't even begin to fall under those categories. So please be careful what you infer. Because those of you complaining about the books because of intelligence. Most likely are just as intelligent as most people on this board. Just some people have less Ego, and don't flaunt it. So implying they are less smart, is very sticky Accusation.

    My two cents.
  22. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    G12, the sign of a weak series is when someone NEW starts a thread about how bad it is every few weeks.
    Take a look at all the negative NJO threads, all started by different people.
    I just chime in to let the poor souls know that they are not alone.
  23. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    aleja--

    With regard to any Star Wars novel: To quote a relatively famous author:

    "Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."

    There is something oddly humorous about ANY attempt to critique Star Wars fiction in the same way that someone might critique "Lord of the Flies", "King Lear" or even "Huckleberry Finn", despite Mr. Twain's warning to the contrary.

    Be that as it may, I find that your experiences don't match my own. I find the reading levels of the Del Rey novels to be the same as those of the Bantam novels. On the most basic acid test--comparing authors' Bantam works to their Del Rey works--nothing is "dumbed down" in Dark Tide compared to X-Wing #1-4 & #8 or I, Jedi, or Balance Point compared to Truce at Bakura.

    And I pick up the same sense about the infallibility of the human spirit, the same themes of redemption and hope, in these books that I saw in the movies. I think the NJO captures the spirit of the movies eloquently.

    Which is precisely why I enjoy them so much.

    As for your aside, I am *aware* of the definitions of "adult" books versus "juvenile" books. To repeat what I said before, in my view, Conquest achieves the same spirit of adventure and space opera captured in Rogue Planet and Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It reads like an "adult" adventure novel, and *not* like the JJK or YJK books.

    Dewlanna--

    Your reasoning suffers from the fallacy of popularity. Try again.
  24. rogue9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 1
    I apologize to Dewlana for starting another "thread" on this subject. I'm a long time member of the JC - but have not been able to log in for QUITE a while. I skimmed the threads on the first page or so, before creating this thread.

    - I certainly do like the changes this site has made. I'm kicking myself pretty bad for missing the threads that Stackpole and Salvatore contributed on.

  25. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Rogue 9, I don't mind you starting this tread.
    Every few weeks someone starts a new thread about the NJO being tiresome or boring or otherwise unsatisfactory. The old threads tend to drop to the bottom after a while and when someone "new" comes to lit after a dissatisfying NJO experience, they start a new topic.

    And I think that really shows the weakness of the whole NJO.

    There are people who are just starting the NJO that are turned off enough by it to start a new thread, there are people who have been reading the NJO since its beginning that are finally fed up enough with the repetitive plots to start a new thread.

    This is purely my opinion that the constant birth of NEW negative NJO threads by NEW people shows that something is not up to par with this series.

    More on the rest of last nights posts later, I took some time out of a busy schedule this morning to let Rogue 9 know that there is no need for apologies.
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