Tired of NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by rogue9, Apr 24, 2001.

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  1. Skydancer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 2
    Nitpicker flamer alert - my reason for the food metaphor was to lighten up the arguments.

    Just something to make everyone smile, but I suppose it's not to everyone's liking. Well then - everyone hear... no more food metaphor. Although, I had fun reading the posts because they made me laugh happy in this dark dark NJO realm. Thank you for the kindness shown. :)

    (bowing out...)
  2. RingoJuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 3
    I've been keeping up with this thread since it first popped up on the boards. I wanted to see what everybody had to say, what their likes and dislikes of the NJO were. As for myself, I like it. I happen to like most things Star Wars. I understand where those who don't like it are coming from, and wish them well in whatever they decide to do next. I've always been a bigger fan of what was going on after ROTJ than what was going on around the time of TPM. The past never appealed to me much, only the future. My main hope is that people can remain civil. I've been around other boards in the past that went to pot because of serious infighting and even death threats levied against some of the participants. I'm not saying that it's like that here, but you can understand my wariness. Hope you are all having a good day
  3. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    RAS:Bror, I'm not going to go around in circles with you here.

    As I've said before, we'll have to agree to disagree and I'll keep the rest of this as short as possible answering only key parts. Here's where we are: I continue to have faith in some media I've been watching for years and you feel that they are misleading.

    I related my own experiences concerning lists, and concerning a "series" fanbase. In Dungeons and Dragons, many Greyhawk fans ?

    I know, but I've been trying to impress upon you and others that Star Wars is NOT Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or anything like D&D ? not even close. The fan demographics are too different to try and make your comparisons. I believe more and more each day that this is the core problem from which all OTHER problems with Star Wars (as I and many others see them) flow. The powers-that-be don't understand their audience. They are out of touch with who has been buying the books and who might buy them consistently in the future. :(

    You see, I don't think Star Wars has changed appreciably since 1977. But I do think that (some of) the original fans from 1977 have changed a bit ?

    And we'll have to disagree on this point as well. Commentary found in mainstream entertainment media generally agreed that The Phantom Menace was aimed at a younger audience than the original SW trilogy (Jar Jar being the most obvious example) and this disappointed myself and nearly all my thirty-something friends who are SW fans. Most long-time EU readers I know see the NJO moving in this same direction. Those of us that saw Star Wars as appealing to all ages feel rejected by this recent pandering to children ? as if they don't have enough entertainment directed at them already. :eek: As many of us have pointed out, our reading habits and tastes haven't changed appreciably in the past 3-5 years. It's the books that have changed ? :(

    If VP (total) hasn't outsold the other NJO books, you would make an argument that it shows how DelRey is losing readers (as you did in your last post). However, if VP has outsold the others, you'd use that to show how the series is dropping fast.

    Nice try at putting words in my mouth to deflect the point I made about the casual fans abandoning SW literature but I made no such assertion. I never said (publicly or privately) that the 1st year's NJO paperbacks should have outsold all versions of the novels originally released as hardcovers such as VP. That makes no sense at all.
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    RAS...
    "Complaints such as that have been going on for many years, starting with HTTE..."

    Well, I hate to say I told you so, but, "I told you so."

    RAS is correct. Essentially, the NJO and Del Rey have not done anything fundamentally different than the way Star Wars novels have been handled in past major relaunches.

    Bantam's first book, HttE was set five years after ROTJ, completely did away with the characterization of people we've come to know and love. It's author is on record as saying he not only didn't have to follow existing continuity, but that in a particular instance he didn't like things about it so willfully ignored it. We had the main characters "put out to pasture" to make way for the "kewl" new characters of the story we've not seen before. Well, the list goes on and on...

    But, for those old-time fans who have been around know that most of the exact same arguments being levelled at Del Rey (and the NJO) are rehashes of arguments made a decade ago when Bantam took over. The only difference is that a lot of novel readership today was perhaps brought in to the Star Wars EU with Bantam in 1991.

    So, fundamentally, the way Del Rey reinvigorated the Star Wars novels is really no different than how Bantam did things - well there are some fairly big differences...
    1. Tighter control of existing continuity - Unlike Bantam, NJO Draws from the full 24-year continuity of Star Wars as opposed to Bantam which primarily ignored things prior.
    2. Tighter interaction between authors - We know that some (well one in particular) Bantam authors chose not to necessarily have contact with other authors about those people's creations, which ended up hacking up things. We know that the NJO authors have had a whole lot of interaction to make sure they get things right about people, places, characters, etc.

    So, while generally, while Del Rey may have followed Bantam's "plan" for doing a relaunch - it didn't follow Bantam's same major mistakes. In doing so, it's made for a better product, IMO.
  5. Hunter's Luck Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 1999
    star 1
    Mr Salvatore, have you actually seen the sales numbers? For your book too? I am curious. I thought all that information was super top secret. So, unless you've actually seen the sales numbers from ALL the books, you claims that things are going fine are just as moot as Bror Jace's conclusions. At least Bror Jace is using a frame of reference not shrowded in secrecy to back up his claims.

    Genghis12, all the movie mains were in the thick of it in the Thrawn Trilogy. Luke was out fighting. Han and LANDO were out fighting, looking for the Dark Force fleet. Leia was fighting off the Noghri and fighting the political battles. She was instrumental in uncovering Delta Source. Chewie was involved too! Making a conclusion that the Thrawn trilogy put the main out to pasture is a conclusion that you cannot support based on the text of the novels.
  6. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    "The implied torture of Han and Leia in the movie trilogy happened offstage, which was consistent with the tone and pacing of those stories. The NJO is certainly darker than the movies."

    So says Ms. Cunningham. And that is just it. Referring to Gandolf's 4 points against NJO (thus reducing the size of the post :) ) I would add the following:

    I see the films, the OT, as giving SW a certain modus operandi where depiction of the story is concerned, an MO which Bantam broke with in BFC and XW. In the latter it was perhaps understandable, there is no way to do plague nicely but if so should it be done in a story like SW? Are there elements that are too nasty for a tale like SW that is aimed at a universal audience? In the former the violence was excessive in the way NJO has been in DT. In all cases the portrait opted for was not needed or required by the story, using the method of suggestion would have worked more than adequately.

    To those who say films and books are different, I accept the difference but both are narrative mediums, therefore the same narrative techniques may be used in both, albeit with modification in some instances e.g. in a book a chracter can be shown thinking, in film voiceover may be one way to do this. Similarly it is easy to show a big spaceship in film that takes much description in text. The differnce lies in how the narrative technique is executed. BUT I'm no expert on this, my point is merely that film and books are not that separate.

    Moving on, however, it can be seen from BP and C, that DR/LFL do have the ability to listen to criticism; in both books the violence was portrayed differently to the earlier instalments of NJO. This is hopeful for future eps of NJO. I do not give up on a story I like easily, I might rant and rave like bloody murder if I don't like certain elements but back down and disappear? Forget it.

    As for the other major irritants of NJO:

    *the Solo kids: Lessee, KT took care of Jacen, GK did the same for Anakin, EC has the odds against with Jaina but I wouldn't have said the other two could have been sorted out in the way they have, so here's hpoing.

    *The superficial politics: Both the Jedi and the NR's internal divisions were lacklustre from the start, consider those here that are US citizens, if your country is attacked would your representatives continue slashing and attacking each other on the basis of mutual antipathy or decide to deck the attackers then get back to beating up each other? I say the latter, but NJO would have us believe the former is plausible. As for the Jedi schism, it would not have occurred but for the decision to make the Jedi philosophical dunces when they should be anything but. To anyone with a brain this supposed debate is easily solved, but the Jedi don't think about stuff do they? THey rely on the Force. (see C for evidence of this). Anyyyway, with luck, TD's SBS will dispose of both creations.

    OK, I'm done for now, nice to see a few authors popping up here (yep, you're included in that line RAS you'll just have to put up with the idea that I don't actually despise SW NJO authors :) )

    Jedi Ben
  7. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Hunter's Luck--

    The mains have been in the thick of the action in the NJO, too. Only in Conquest do Han, Leia, and Luke lack major roles, but then again, so do Jacen and Jaina. By the same token, the kids were almost completely excluded from Hero's Trial.

    Bror says---

    I know, but I've been trying to impress upon you and others that Star Wars is NOT Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or anything like D&D ? not even close. The fan demographics are too different to try and make your comparisons.

    The comparisons have cited the fan reactions, not the demographics. As described by Mr. Salvatore and Ms. Cunningham, the reactions seem analogous.

    Commentary found in mainstream entertainment media generally agreed that The Phantom Menace was aimed at a younger audience than the original SW trilogy (Jar Jar being the most obvious example) and this disappointed myself and nearly all my thirty-something friends who are SW fans.

    What you are describing is a reaction many fans had to Return of the Jedi.

    I was 22 when I saw Return of the Jedi. Not only was I disappointed, but the cute little Ewoks wanted to make me curdle, figuratively speaking. Even the collection of beasties in Jabba's palace seemed too cute. Other aspects of the production disappointed me (e.g., the destruction of the Death Star seemed unconnected to the battle of wills in the Throne Room), but the Ewoks particularly stuck in my craw. Many people reacted to RotJ in much the same way I did.

    My feelings about RotJ have changed over the years. I've learned to appreciate the film more, but it still ranks as my least favorite film (out of all four).

    Many fan reactions to Jar-Jar and The Phantom Menace remind me of similar reactions to the Ewoks and RotJ. The reactions seem analogous.

    Most long-time EU readers I know see the NJO moving in this same direction. Those of us that saw Star Wars as appealing to all ages feel rejected by this recent pandering to children ?

    And that's the point, Bror. Your reactions to TPM are analogous to the reactions of many viewers to RotJ in 1983. Your reactions to the NJO are analogous to the reactions of Greyhawk fans to Forgotten Realms.

    As many of us have pointed out, our reading habits and tastes haven't changed appreciably in the past 3-5 years. It's the books that have changed ?

    Sure, the books have changed. No one has been arguing that the NJO is simply the continuation of the Bantam post-RotJ line. The NJO books feature a single, continuing story arc rather than the more conventional one-to-three book stories. Books are released in chronological order, which allows events to have more consequence. A new threat, the Yuuzhan Vong, has replaced the Empire. The Solo kids are old enough to play a major role alongside their parents, uncle, and aunt. In part because of the length of the story line, the books have a grimmer, grittier tone...

    So of course the books have changed. What did you expect? ?[face_plain]
  8. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    A question, mother to mother, for Elaine.
    How do you feel about your children reading the sort of violence that was in Ruin and the torture and brainwashing of a 14 year old?
    I know how Kathy Tyers feels about such things and a lot of the muting of violence in BP was due to KT's personal concerns about the hold violence seems to have on today's young people.

  9. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "The implied torture of Han and Leia in the movie trilogy happened offstage, which was consistent with the tone and pacing of those stories."

    You mustn't have listened to the radio dramas. They show those scenes in gritty realism. Infact the radio drama's are alot darker than the movies. With plent of dark added scenes. A han that develops character, throughout the series.(You can litteraly see his character change througout the course of the series). Infact many of the characters are more human in the radio drama. More natural.
  10. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Hunter's Luck...
    "Genghis12, all the movie mains were in the thick of it in the Thrawn Trilogy. Luke was out fighting. Han and LANDO were out fighting, looking for the Dark Force fleet. Leia was fighting off the Noghri and fighting the political battles. She was instrumental in uncovering Delta Source. Chewie was involved too! Making a conclusion that the Thrawn trilogy put the main out to pasture is a conclusion that you cannot support based on the text of the novels."

    It is a conclusion I can entirely support based on the text of the novels. The situation is virtually the same with Luke, Leia, Han / Mara, Thrawn, Karrde as it is with Luke, Leia, Han / Jacen, Nom, Anakin etc. Which was the whole point. NJO is no different than Bantam with respect to character "screen time, etc." However, instead of back then using Jacen, Jaina, Ankain - it was Mara Jade, Talon Karrde and a host of other new characters.

    The fact is that the "main's" aren't being put out to pasture any more in NJO than they were in Bantam. Based on the text. In fact, in NJO, the mains are also in the thick of it - based on the text of the novels.

    The only difference is now, in addition to the main's competing for space, a few Bantam fans don't like it that their "new" characters also have to compete for time as well.
  11. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    RAS:Complaints such as that have been going on for many years, starting with HTTE (oh heck, probably starting with RotJ!), and some more of it should have been, and probably was, anticipated, since NJO brought about a sudden change (and the death of a beloved friend). I'm not minimizing the current complaints here.

    Lets take this little ditty one note at a time.

    Complaints such as that have been going on for many years,
    Complaints about individual books and trilogies, yes.
    Complaints about an entire series and the direction that Star Wars literature is taking, no.
    starting with HTTE
    Only by that tiny section of SW fans who think the movies are the Holy Grail and people who can't get over Marvel comics being superseded by a more logical storyline.
    (oh heck, probably starting with RotJ!)
    Ok, I'll give you this one, there were those furry little Gungan precursors :)
    Actually, my first Star Wars disappointment was The Empire Strikes Back It was such a dramatic shift from the thoroughly enjoyable space opera fun of A New Hope that I almost didn't bother going to Return of the Jedi. But ROTJ restored my faith in GL's genius. A faith that was shaken to the core by TPM.
    and some more of it should have been, and probably was, anticipated,
    Should have been, yes
    probably was anticipated, I don't think so.
    Looking at the way the NJO was planned and executed, I think that DelRey and LFL had a distorted view of who their primary readership was. While I understand going after a new younger audience, I don't think the powers-that-be-knew there was such a large group of fans who would be dismayed at the sweeping change in tone and content. At least I hope they don't think it is ok to ignore us and expect us to just stop reading if we don't care for the books.
    since NJO brought about a sudden change
    Too much change. Wrong things changed.
    (and the death of a beloved friend)
    Really Bob.
    Most of us, while disappointed that someone thinks death makes exciting reading and increased sales, aren't emotional basket cases because the big Wook is gone. It isn't Chewbacca's death that bothers us, it's not even the hokey means of his death. Face it, VP is over, done, can't change it, let's move on.
    It's what hasn't been done with the death that's continuing to bother people. It's the superficial treatment of the aftereffects of Chewie's death. The eulogy at the end of Vector Prime was the last real emotion we saw from Chewie's demise.
    We are exposed to graphic ?on screen' violence, but any real adult emotion seems to be kept in the closet. Are the people in charge saying the violence is ok for young adults but not grieving, marital problems and their resolution, real politics? There are some serious problems with this series. Just walking away would not be a responsible adult's reaction to this diminishing of what had been a wonderful fictional realm to share with friends of all ages and temperaments.
    I'm not minimizing the current complaints here.
    You are when you dismiss them with platitudes, and ignore them together.
  12. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Only by that tiny section of SW fans who think the movies are the Holy Grail and people who can't get over Marvel comics being superseded by a more logical storyline."

    No go to the prequel forums and the OT forums and you will see it was a very large group taht was discusted by HTTE. Those that stuck with it are just a few more to add to that large list.

    Many of those people loved the old marvel and other original EU material.

    Me I have no quelms against HTTE, and loved it.

    "Too much change. Wrong things changed."

    That depends on the person, just as as those people that were forced away from the EU by HTTE, and are now canonists because they thought he ruined there characters. They think he is a hack.

    "It's the superficial treatment of the aftereffects of Chewie's death. The eulogy at the end of Vector Prime was the last real emotion we saw from Chewie's demise."

    Then you forget about the NJO tiein, "Chewbacca" comics, which was a memorial story set during NJO times, telling fond rememberences of a good friend that was lost.

    As for han he did go through all the normal parts of a healthy grief routine.

    Blame, anger, hopelessness, denial, acceptance etc etc. That is very much in character for a person who loses a loved one. It may have not been explained in detail. But at least it was covered naturally, and hints were shown that he was going through very human ordeals.
  13. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Dewlanna--

    "It's the superficial treatment of the aftereffects of Chewie's death. The eulogy at the end of Vector Prime was the last real emotion we saw from Chewie's demise."

    Gadzooks! What about Hero's Trial, from beginning to end????
  14. Mecca-Don Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2001
    star 2
    Damn, It's nice to see things haven't changed since the last time I posted in this thread. I got a few things to say, first to RASalvatore and Elaine Cunningham, It's good to see you two posting. Mr. Salvatore, I thought Vector Prime was one of the best Star Wars books written to date and I'm looking forward to your novelization of Episode 2. Ms. Cunningham, I'm definitely forward to Dark Journey. Now that I've gotten the pleasant stuff out of the way I can get to the rest of what I wanted to say. Since the last time I posted there have been discussions on sales stats in regards to so called declining NJO sales, some mentioning about the NJO driving older SW fans away and general discussions involving plotlines and cliffhangers. What does declining sales and driving older SW fans away have to do with one being tired of the NJO? I'll answer that one myself. Absolutely Nothing. Others have already dealt with the issue of sales figures in previous posts so I won't go into it. However, as far as older fans being driven away is concerned, that is not neccessarily true. Anakin Skysolo mentioned in one of his posts that he is an older fan who happens to like the NJO. I can say that I am one of those first generation, old school SW fans who saw the OT in theatres as well in 1977 - 1983. I consider myself at age 34 one of those older fans and I also happen to like the NJO just fine so I doubt that all the older fans are being driven away. Alright, next point. In a previous post Sweetheart said:

    "Dropped Storylines and leaving cliffhangers dangling are signs of poor storytelling."

    This is your opinion but I disagree mainly because I see no dropped storylines. The NJO is one complete story that being written in about 19 books by several different authors. Storylines left dangling in one book will be picked up by another author in another book. I have seen no signs of cliffhangers in the NJO with the exception of Tsavong Lah's ultimatum to the NR to turn over the Jedi at the end of Balance Point so I don't know why you mentioned this. Anyway, next point. MariahJade2 said:

    "I was somewhat surprised that the mere mention of possible problems seems to have threatened some into suggesting that we all leave and that our thoughts and feelings should be suppressed."

    No one I know suggested that all of you leave and no one is suggesting your thoughts and feelings be suppressed BUT speaking for myself, I have asked in a previous post why some people continue to read NJO books if they dislike them so much. My feeling is that if you dislike them then stop reading them instead of torturing yourself. It is just a suggestion only made to certain individuals. I also think that people don't need to express their feelings over and over again. Most of us reading this thread already know your opinions and do not need to be reminded so I see no need to be redundant and say over and over again in several threads that one hates the NJO but that's my personal opinion. MariahJade2, You are one of the few critics who actually post your feelings intelligently and don't resort to thinly disguised insults and posting opinions as facts so I have no problems with you, yet. That's it for now, now I will sit back and prepare to dodge the stones coming from NJO Critics.
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The Vong's Sadomaschism in DT and After:

    It is interesting to note that this is referred to in HT as characteristic of Domain Shai. I read this as DR correcting their error in going over the top with the Vong in NJO 1-3.

    Yet, from a critical viewpoint, why didn't they go the whole way, switch back to a suggestive, restrained portrait of vilence in ine with say DE, TTT, HOT, IJ?

    From an editor's view they could not, it would have been a total break in tone. I can understand the gradual shift, if not for a few scenes in JE, it would be a good move but JE was a regression which BP fixed and C has continued the good work. I suppose JE could be seen as a last gasp of the new order of showing everything in SW books. Either way, DR seem to have learnt their lesson.

    Before ending, who here knows Night's Dawn? If not, let's just say it blows NJO out of the water on the descriptive violence front. My opposition to the gore and blood is based on the fact that all the SW movies are universally graded. It is a part of SW identity, it is known as a good story which anyone can read, watch and enjoy, regardless of age or background. NJO throws all that into peril, sacrificing a reputation built over several years for short term monetary gain.

    I'm not but hypothetically speaking, from a parent's viewpoint I'd feel betrayed by the books of NJO. I would not see them as products that match the films, despite bearing the name. That name I read as meaning certain things were guaranteed, certain elements present, others not. SW has a certain identity amongst the general public, whether it is of a bad story, crazy film or junk, it's generally seen as harmless fun. I would not see NJO representing simiular harmless universal entertainment. (For those who say this is advocating being protective of their kids, I'll say there isn't a parent on the planet who isn't, if they be honest.)

    It is for this reason in part, that I have been and remain highly critical of NJO. Yes, it is improving and may yet redeem itself as a story, but those early eps will cause damage in the public perception of SW that could easily have bee avoided.

    For any who wish to cite Ep II and III as a NJO defence, forget it. Those films will be graded universal, same as the rest of the films; they will be subtlely dark, not the style of early NJO.

    Jedi Ben
  16. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Listen to the Star Wars radio drama's for more dark version and more violent take on the star wars trilogies journey. It's far more descriptive in the scenes than the movies could go into.
  17. RowanRaven Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2001
    It's been a while since I've looked at this forum so forgive me for backtracking, but there is a post or two that needs some clarification.

    RowenRaven, my comment about this forum not being representative of most SW readers was not directed at any particular person or persons on this forum, or even any particular side of the NJO opinion. It was a comment about us all, myself included. The people here are all very active and involved fans, and our opinions will tend to be more extreme and more vehement.

    Elaine, I am glad you understood my sarcasm. I fear that many lack the capacity to appreciate a good ole fashioned sarcastic remark.

    In your first few posts, you "seemed" to be condescendingly dismissing the NJO critics as a lunatic fringe element. I see from your later posts that you understand the validity of why they feel they way they do, and recognize that they are as much a part of the "general readership" as the NJO devotees.
    This initial impression of one-sidedness was why I specifically mentioned some of the more prominent NJO fans.

    I'm sorry if that caused your subsequent remarks to be misinterpreted.


    I suspect that the pro/con ratio seen on forums is approximately the same as the pro/con ratio of the general readership. Although, perhaps now, 18 months and seven books into the series, the pro-NJO proportion of the non-forum readership has increased, as many causal fans who don't care for the NJO have followed Darth Ludicrous's advice and opted out.

    My point is that if the views of the "vocal NJO critics" are to be dismissed so cavalierly because they represent a small portion of NJO readers, then the opinion of the "vocal NJO lovers" should be dismissed as well. Since there is little chance of either group keeping their opinions to themselves, I suggest we respect all opinions, pro and con, and realize that while both sides can be extreme, both represent a larger, less vocal, group of fans.

  18. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    To any who can be bothered to read my posts:

    Read them as representing my views and my views only. Oh, you happen to agree with me? Smart, but I'm not representing you. You disagree? Ensure you have a good reason and one of two things will happen. I'll accept it and agree to differ or we debate.

    Since there seems be a great debate on representation, I decided to ensre I don't get caught in it.

    Valiento's post re: radio. The medium is different though, it may be that the greater descriptions are needed because the imagery of the films is absent. Even if that is not the case, does the story merit the description? If the scene in the death star cell in ANH is expanded then the torture has to be mentioned? Is this done in a similarly excessive way to NJO 1-3? Or is it done as a requirement of the story? It is a separate debate as to whether the scene should have been expanded at all, given what would have to be covered in it.

    Regards

    Jedi Ben
  19. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "excessive"

    Depends on one's point of view, if you see it as that's your prerogative, ;). Another might see it as something else, and I might see it as something different altogether.

    So I understand what your saying.
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Not to defend Elaine or anyone else for that matter, but RowanRaven said...
    "In your first few posts, you "seemed" to be condescendingly dismissing the NJO critics as a lunatic fringe element."

    I take issue with such a statement. The ususal NJO critics have done a good job at dismissing themselves as a lunatic fringe element without any help from others. ;)
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Even so, Valiento, even allowing for our diffent perceptions we could analyse a scene and agree on the basis of that analysis what is needed and what isn't. Of course we might differ as to the end of it.

    Consider a torture scene. I would say that, given SW is a universally graded tale, ie. aimed at everyone, the coverage of torture should be minimum. So, ESB, we see Han Solo being lowered to a rack of glowing hot sharp edges, cut away to a cell where screams are heard, which are nkown to be Han's. Is anything more than that needed, given the kind of audience SW is made for? If so, anything more is surely excessive? You may dispute my foundation for the analysis, I'm arguing on the basis of whom SW is aimed determining the depiction of a story element. You may argue for a different basis say.


    I can think of stories far more explicitly violent than SW which I don't mind, as the stories are not SW. To set a story within the SW universe and bear the name SW is, to my mind, to accept limitations on both plot and narrative. It was wrong for DR/LFL to try and remove this limitation with NJO, when the story could work well within the limitations. The same also applies to some of Bantams work as well.

    Well, looks to be a fun discussion,

    Jedi Ben
  22. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Well, let's take Leia's torture in ANH, audio drama's She is pretty much Mind Raped. Vader druging her, and causing all sorts of pain, and putting thoughts in her mind. Leia, screaming to stop. Let me go, Let me go. The torture scene goes on for something like 5-10 minutes in very severe detail.

    It really put perspective on how she was tortured and showed that vader was not a very nice guy. This was shown on public radio, is canon like the movies.

    Even Han's torture was expanded on not nearly as much as leia's but it was more graphic than the movie.

    From What I've read in the NJO, the descriptions are not anything worse than what was on that radio drama, or other radio dramas. Not nearly as bad as other non-star wars books.

    Keep descriptions to a bare minimum can be seen as bland and weak use of english descriptive words. Going by my Old english teachers lessons. So far I see nothing that was any worse than what came before.

    But you may be different, and I respect you personal choice, or what you see as bad, or not. That's up to each personal parent to decide, or each person to decide for themselves. Everyone grows up with a different background, and I respect that.
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Valiento,

    Fascinating. From what you say, there is a definite divergence between the movies and the radio dramas. On the one hand, NJO seems excessive, yet if the radio dramas are considered (and the example you use matches Tahiri's torture to a degree) and apparently they are canon, then SW's identity almost becomes split.

    For myself there is a big differnce between what I can take if I'm hearing/watching, or reading. The latter is much higher because I have total control over sensory input, but that's my preference.

    I'm quite intrigued by what you say, as it sounds like there is two versions of SW. Given that, though Vader is nastier in the dramas, doesn't that make his redemption more problematic? It might be the dramas get quietly disowned by LFL or edited to make them nicer and more in line. OK, that's a cynical line, and it's an off topic Q, but I'd be interested in your response, alternatively PM me. (Oh yeah read DSN:Avatar yet per chance?)

    Jedi Ben
  24. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "It might be the dramas get quietly disowned by LFL or edited to make them nicer and more in line."

    No actually it really adds to his redemption, vader really goes through a change in all 3 radio dramas.

    If you didn't know Brian Daley(May He rest in peace), excellent star wars writer, and friend of Luceno's wrote the screenplays(with lucas supervising and lucas's note)for all 3 of the radio dramas. The 3rd was never finished and never aired on radio. He died right before it was finished. The radio drama went straight to store when the release was finished.

    He really put a deeper understanding into what vader had really gone through to, and later how he was able to change enough to be redeemed. His redemption is much deeper, because of it. He had alot of baggage to release, and it took his son to get through to him.

    They are what lucas would have shown in the movies if time would of allowed. Though most people wouldn't want to sit around for 7hrs of a movie.

    One added note take a look at thx-1138(robert duvall) if you can find it. IT was one of lucas' earliest stories, and shows all sorts of disturbing stuff such as beating someone up with a billyclub on tv for entertainment. Mind Raping. Other sexual explicist material, pornography stuff on tv, made for pleasure(since actually doing it in real life was a crime, so tv was the way to get pleasure.) Lucas is not the wholesome guy people put him on a pedastal to be. He really delves into human psychy on how bad humanity can go. It's not glossed over much.

    "OK, that's a cynical line, and it's an off topic Q, but I'd be interested in your response, alternatively PM me. (Oh yeah read DSN:Avatar yet per chance?)"

    I really hope you get the chance to check them out if you can. They are quite excellent.

    NO, I haven't read in trek yet. Maybe this summer if I get the time.
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Good response, Valiento.

    I'm sceptical about your claim that the radio dramas are closer to Lucas' orginal vision, as Lucas seems to change his mind frequently as to what his original idea or vision was. I don't really wish to have a discussion about it either, so let's just agree to differ and save each other a lot of time. I have other grounds for scepticism but we've covered those in a fashion. I will say I link my EU collection to the movies, it is the OT that I use as a paradigm for structuring my SW story, which explains the views I have on SW. You seem to use a different method, that's fine, I'd say my general points about SW's popular identity or public perception of, remain valid though.

    Regards

    Jedi Ben
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