Discussion in 'Literature' started by rogue9, Apr 24, 2001.
"I'm sceptical about your claim that the radio dramas are closer to Lucas' orginal vision, as Lucas seems to change his mind frequently as to what his original idea or vision was."
Maybe I should have said closer to one of his earlier drafts for ANH. You are right about his vision changing, alot. But that one was closer to the script at the time. before scenes were cut out on the chopping room floor for the movie version. It also covers many scenes only seen in the novel. Which was also closer to an older script, before the movie chopped out alot scenes.
Lucas discusses some of the left out scenes in Annotated screen play and other interviews, and what his vision was at that time, if you care to go and look.
But in anycase Lucas was involved behind that project, and whatever you have to say, you have to admit, that Lucas has some very graphic ideas, that he has been known to display in different sources.
But hey, lucas has been known to contradict his own movies(see some key lines in TPM). Which required EU going back and fixing the errors. Most people are going to notice the errors, and won't understand the Plot Holes. It's all in the sake of lucas changing his vision, and not deciding what they want. Let's just there are plenty of those that were upset or skeptical about the added Greedo Shoots first scene. It weakened han's character to some degree, in there minds.
"You seem to use a different method, that's fine, I'd say my general points about SW's popular identity or public perception of, remain valid though."
Yes, I take the movies(both versions), the audio drama's and the novelization into account, for all the backstory and better understanding of the direction of the EU. This is pretty much what most the author's do as well I surmise. From most People I talk to they do as well. But you are welcome do as you please. I'm not trying to convert you or anything, .
Where GL and graphic ideas are concerned let's remember that this is the guy who had Vader slash Luke's hand off on-screen. It was dead quick though, the NJO version would have the saber slooowly going, smoking the flesh, screaming, oh and a fountain of blood out of the artery.
OK, I'm guilty of overdoing the sarcasm and hyperboly, but that is the difference I see between the films and NJO, and it is totally needless. BP proved NJO can work fine without gross gore, that doesn't rule out graphic violence: BP had mass sacrifice, Leia having her legs slashed, a space snake having its head blown off amongst others. But, to quote a certain EU character, "it was so artistically done."
Oh, lest you take this the wrong way, I haven't responded to the bulk of your post, re: original drafts, annotated screenplays etc, because I can't. I don't know much in that area, it's never interested me. I'm not interested by 'what if', (Which is why I wo't buy Infinities, DHC's new gimmick, how the mighty have fallen) but focused on what is.
I will comment on one thing, the Greedo alteration was nuts, he misses at point blank range?! Oh and Solo has to defend himself?! My view was Solo's pre-emptive defence set his character arc up much better than the new version. But's that me, as I said before, I'm not looking to debate this though.
"I'm not interested by 'what if', (Which is why I wo't buy Infinities, DHC's new gimmick, how the mighty have fallen) but focused on what is"
I agree, I'm not up for infinities my self.
But these things are not what if's they are the full screenplays, these are the What Is that your missing out on:
As for annotated screen plays, I don't own them. Just read a tiny bit, and other quotes I've seen from it up on the The Official site, about making of and other stuff.
The radio drama was out for the public back in the early 80's you missed it I feel sorry for you, but I recommend you try them out. Maybe your library or a local video store has a books on type section were you could check them out. But by missing them you are missing half the story.
[blockquote]"The series covers the same ground as the original movie; but because of the added length, there are details the movie could hope to include. In fact, it explains some things (such as individual character's motivations) that were best hinted at...in the movie."
The novelization, by George Lucas, ghost written by alan dean foster, also has many of the same scenes. So you have no excuse to check out the other sources to know the Complete timeline of what happened in the movies. Lucas Had it all written out. Things just had to be cut for movie length.
But this is not to get you to argue your view, just to get you to check out some stuff you may have missed. So that you can know what fully happened. In any case you can get elements from it mentioned in other sources as well. Such as the tales books had links to the radio dramas.
I?ve loved the EU ever since it came out with HTTE. The Bantam books held my interest and some of them I consider just as good as the movies. The NJO however, is turning me off more and more with each book. I?ve stopped buying the books until this series can actually turn out something worthwhile of my money and time.
To sum up here are my problems with it:
1) Dropped plotlines.
Four books spent building up Han and Leia?s estrangement only to have their reunion basically ignored; most of it happening "off-screen". I think the whole plot was poorly contrived and only seemed to be there to inject some ?dark realism? into the story and not to advance the characters of Han and Leia and/or their marriage....There?s a one and a half page reunion in Balance Point. Nothing in Conquest. I'd like to know what the point was of this plotline if the reunion was going to be blatantly skimmed over and basically ignored. It did not strengthen their relationship as far as I can see. The whole plotline was pointless. The fact that they cancelled the books with the full reunion and did not recitify this in Conquest shows that the NJO committee didn?t care much for this plotline or for the characters and fans of Han and Leia.
Next, Leia goes through mental torture and nearly has her legs hacked off at the end of Balance Point. We never see Han?s reactions after pushing her away so much to seeing his wife near death. Nothing in Conquest. Was this only done for shock value? It really does seem like it. I believe this plotline had potential, but it didn?t go through. It might as well have never happened. By the time Han and Leia show up in Rebirth, everything will have been far in the past. Leia could have gone through some major character changes; Han could have been so stricken by it he?d never take Leia for granted again. It wasn?t even mentioned how they were or whether Leia kept her legs in Conquest.
Characters like Danni Quee being set up to be major characters and then disappearing off the face of the galaxy.
Mara?s illness being set up to be a life-threatening thing in Vector Prime, but now they don't seem very threatening.
2) Angst galore
I like angst, if it?s done well. It isn?t being done well in the NJO. There?s too much emphasis on the hurt aspecet and a non-existent one on the comfort aspect. Han falls into a deep depression over Chewie, drinks himself stupid, estranges himself from Leia and....? When does he heal himself and mend things fully with Leia? Most of it happens off screen. Leia?s tortured brutally in Balance Point. We never see her full recovery or some moments between her and Han afterwards. It's a similar situation with Han and Leia and their estrangement...so much time spent on the rift and barely any on mending it. Right after they reunite, they're thrown into the trauma again.
I don?t buy a book to read about my favorite characters suffering over, and over, and over again. So far my favorite characters in the NJO have been nothing but miserable. Anything good happens to them happens ?off-screen?. I do not want to put down money for a series that does nothing but depress me.
Way too much of it. Subtle detail is fine enough. I am not interested in reading about the torture and brainwashing of a 14 year old girl, about Leia having her legs mutilated, about how much blood gushed out of this Vong?s chest from self-inflicted torture, etc.
4) The Vong
The Empire were villians I loved to hate. The Vong are just 2 dimensional, boring villians. The obsession with death and pain is completely unappealing to me. Things got a little better in Conquest, but for the most part these villians are a total bore to read about.
5) Solo children taking over. Although I like the Solo kids, they are not enough to hold my interest if the NJO is going to revolve around them from now on. I would much rather read about the original characters from SW than the Solo kids saving the day. Their personalities need to
I will comment briefly on one aspect of your argument. I don't have time for other parts right now.
"Four books spent building up Han and Leia?s estrangement. First off, the whole plot was poorly contrived and only seemed to be there to inject some ?dark realism? into the story and not to advance the characters of Han and Leia and/or their marriage....There?s a one and a half page reunion in Balance Point. Nothing in Conquest. What was the point of this plotline if the reunion was going to be blatantly skimmed over and basically ignored? It didn?t strengthen their relationship as far as I can see. The whole plotline was pointless. The fact that they cancelled the books with the full reunion and did not recitify this in Conquest shows that the NJO committee didn?t care much for this plotline or for the characters and fans of Han and Leia.
Leia goes through mental torture and nearly has her legs hacked off at the end of Balance Point. We never see Han?s reactions after pushing her away so much to seeing his wife near death. Nothing in Conquest. Was this only done for shock value? It really does seem like it. I believe this plotline had potential, but it didn?t go through. It might as well have never happened. By the time Han and Leia show up in Rebirth, everything will have been far in the past. Leia could have gone through some major character changes; Han could have been so stricken by it he?d never take Leia for granted again. It wasn?t even mentioned how they were or whether Leia kept her legs in Conquest.
Characters like Danni Qui being set up to be major characters and then disappearing off the face of the galaxy."
I agree all of those problems are problems, and the sad thing was that they were supposed to be tied up in Knightfall trilogy by Micheal Jan Friedman, that would have taken place before Gregory Keyes book. But thanks to Del Rey marketing thinking they were not the kind's of books fans would want(for what ever reason, biggie one being it was not totally tied to main characters. stupid excuse, imho), We lost those important plot threads.
I mentioned that in my post Valiento (hope I'm spelling your name right! ) That isn't an excuse to me at all. Conquest was written to replace Knightfall. There is barely a mention of Han and Leia in it. If the committee really cared for these characters or the fans of it they would have written this in in Conquest. This is not only a problem with Conquest, but with Balance Point which barely touched upon the reunion. They owed it to the fans to finish up plotlines they start. It's a sign of poor storytelling when plotlines are dropped like that.
Wasn't Conquest written to follow Keyes books? And they were bumped forward several months? Or am I missing something totally?
Santee, I thought Conquest was written to replace Knightfall. If I remember correctly, Rebirth was originally a one-shot novel following the Knightfall trilogy. When those got cancelled, Keyes was asked to write Conquest to replace it. But I could be mistaken. If anyone else knows, tell me
It wasn't a replacement per se, but an expansion because one book during the year wouldn't be enough to tie people over to the main hardbacks, so he added more scenes, most of his old book is supposed be in split between both of conquest and rebirth. He wasn't supposed to discuss han and leia, much(In his old book), which added problems with his ripping his old book in half and adding stuff. Rumor has it though that han and leia will be dealt with during mara's childbirth. Mara's child being the focal point of everyone getting back together. Though people will have to wait and see how well that works out.
Personally I still think that it's too little, there should have been at least 4 books between each hardback.
I don't know what Keyes wanted to do, but the NJO commitee should have told him to finish up this storyline, whether the book was a replacement book or not. If they want to cancel books, they should make sure the series won't lose anything significant by doing so. As I said before, dropping plotlines like a rock is a sign of poor storytelling. They didn't ask Keyes to cover it obviously; that seems to show they didn't care much for the characters of Han and Leia, or the fans who wanted to see this. At the very least, there should have been a brief mention of them in Conquest of how Leia had healed and how their marriage had changed since reuniting.
Now I have to go to dinner
"As I said before, dropping plotlines like a rock is a sign of poor storytelling."
Not really a sign or poor story telling but poor marketing. The story could still turn out good, even though the "suits" messed it up, and didn't tell friedman what they wanted, or changed ideas mid stream.
I say again the plot could turn out fine even though, the "suits" messed up the marketing plan. These are proffessional writers, and are capable of catching and saving a story from certain doom.
I know I'm late but I wanted to comment on something that was said earlier:
"This is your opinion but I disagree mainly because I see no dropped storylines."
What about Leia's injuries? She was tortured mentally and physically at the end of Balance Point and then this storyline to finish this (her recovery process, Han's reactions to her injuries) was completely dropped since she's not mentioned in Conquest. Han and Leia's estrangement was finished in a page and a half and completely ignored in Conquest. How can you see no dropped storylines?
"I have seen no signs of cliffhangers in the NJO with the exception of Tsavong Lah's ultimatum to the NR to turn over the Jedi at the end of Balance Point so I don't know why you mentioned this."
You don't think not knowing if Leia kept her legs or not was a cliffhanger? You don't think that not knowing if Han and Leia would work things out at the end of JE was a cliffhanger? Both plotlines were glanced over or ignored completely.
I have to say that I agree with sweetheart. Like about the Han and Leia thing. They build up their break up with some angsty scenes over several books, and then barely touch upon their reunion in Balance Point. And yeah, what *is* the deal with Leia? I personally couldn't wait to find out what happened to them after BP, but instead all I got for my patience was some lame paperback glorifying Anakin Solo. Dude, I thought that stuff was reserved for the kiddie YJK series. Ughh....
So am I tired of the NJO? Yeah, yeah I am.
Sweetheart, I don't see Han and Leia's situation (their estrangement, Leia's injuries, recovery and Han's reactions to them) as a dropped storyline because I expect that Greg Keyes will cover them in Rebirth. Since Conquest and Rebirth together make up the Edge Of Victory story, I don't consider this as coming one book too late but as a continuation of Keyes story.
You also posted:
"You don't think not knowing if Leia kept her legs or not was a cliffhanger?"
Alright, you got me on that one. That was definitely a cliffhanger. I can't believe I forget about that. My whole point about cliffhangers is that they are supposed to continue from one book to another. I don't see leaving them dangling as weak storytelling.
Meena Don, I hope Han and Leia's story will be told in Rebirth too. But it's too late to tell some stories. Rebirth takes place several months after Balance Point. We never saw the full and final reconciliation that was to take place in Knightfall. It won't make sense for this to take place in Rebirth. No couple reunites and holds off on further reuniting for months.
Leia's injuries can't be dealt with in Rebirth either unless they're told in flashback. We assume she's healed since in Conquest it says she's off with Han somewhere. But we never see her healing from the mental torture inflicted on her; we never see her full physical recovery; we never see Han's reaction to almost losing his wife (which should be especially poignant when you consider all that has happened between them before this happens). It can't be covered in Rebith; it's too late for these events that the Han/Leia fans wanted to see. It's sad that we never got to see them.
I'm with sweetheart. Sure, Han and Leia's plotline was supposed to be tied up in Knightfall, but with that cancelled, we'll never see it and never know what happened. Conquest certaintly didn't help, and as she said Rebirth is nine months after BP. As much as I would like to see an ending to that storyline, it'll be ridiculus if they put in in Rebirth. Han and Leia spent all the time together in BP and Conquest that we didn't see. That's when the storyline is tied up, not in Rebirth. How beliveable would it be that Han and Leia spent months together during Conquest but we see their "full and final reconciliation" in Rebirth?
It's a dropped plotline that cannot be recovered and has helped pull down the NJO, along with the entire boring Vong concept.
To clear up one bit of confusion:
Greg Keyes was orginally contracted to write a story that focused on Anakin Solo. In other words, he was hired to write Conquest. Some of the slack from the cancellation of Knightfall is taken up in Conquest, but most of the slack is taken up in Rebirth.
Here's some snippets about both books
from a chat with Greg Keyes last month at [link=http://www.thechrono.com/archives/chats/keyes_041301/keyes_041301.txt]The Chrono[/link] (the link goes to a transcript of the chat):
<Greg> [Rebirth is] longer than Conquest, though not a whole lot longer. There's only so many pages I can write in two months, unfortunatly. Rebirth has a bigger caste. Lots of Han, Leia, Threepio, etc. Look for much more Corran. Jaina, Kyp, Anakin and Tahiri of course, and the new, improved Jacen.
<Greg> Conquest was to be an Anakin adventure from the start, even from before I got the job.
<JediJaina> <Andakin> What can you tell us about your experiences with the time constraints, and details about the cancelled MJF trilogy?
<Greg> I started with more time than I ended up with, because of the cancellation.
It's tough. I had a whole Jacen/Jaina finding Booster subplot that I suddenly didn't have time to write. AS far as the MJF trilogy, I'm not sure what I can say about it. I only saw the outline, and it changed a lot before it was dropped. I had to pick up some of the slack in my books -- some of the threads in Rebirth come from there. The general hunt/slaughter of the Jedi in his books became the prologue in Conquest.
I'm not saying Conquest could have taken up the slack from Knightfall. It was an Anakin adventure and that was the problem. There were dangling plotlines involving Han and Leia, but they couldn't be put in Conquest and, as I said, Rebirth is too late. The estrangement plotline was completely shunted aside but still left unfinished.
IT really sounds as if knightfall could still fit into continuity if it would have just been allowed to be released. Not to mention they could have just let the first book jedi storm be released, since it was finished, and let keyes finish a bridge novel. In this case we lost a lot, with Knightfall being condensed to a prologue.
If Conquest was unable to pick up the slack from the cancelled Knightfall trilogy, a book should have been written before Conquest to replace it instead of afterwards. These unfinished plotlines won't make sense if they appear in Rebirth. It's too late. The people who run the NJO shouldn't cancel books if they have consequences like leaving cliffhangers and plotlines unfinished. It's poor planning/storytelling/marketing, however you want to put it. It's not good for the story, that's the bottom line.
Very true, Valiento and Sweetheart. If they're canceling books, they should make sure what was to be covered in them is still covered somewhere else. That's one of the problems with the NJO.
And I still don't see why they cut the Trilogy anyway. Knightfall probably would still fit. It featured Danni and some new guy who wouldn't mess up the Conquest story, plus it tied up the estrangement plotline that was dropped from the other books. I know they said the trilogy wasn't going in the same direction as the rest of the NJO was, but perhaps a new direction would have been refreshing and eased the fan's nerves.
Conquest was published first for one simple reason. It was already written (or nearly so). Rebirth wasn't. Even last month, Rebirth was still going through the editing process. Again, from the chat:
<GhentZ> Let's get right to the question on everyone's mind: What's happening with REBIRTH?
<Greg> I just got a marked-up manuscript from Lucasfilm so i can make a few minor changes. Other than that, it's almost good to go. I'm pretty sure we'll hit the release date.
I have no idea what will be in Rebirth, beyond the birth of the kid. Maybe we'll see the scene you want between Han and Leia. Maybe we won't. We'll find out one way or another in August.
I said it before...We *can't* see the scene between Han and Leia we want to see. It wouldn't make any logical sense for Han and Leia to reunite in BP and then have their "full and final reconciliation" several months afterwards. That makes no sense.
We *can't* see Leia healing mentally and physically from her injuries, unless it's done in flashback. We *can't* see Han's first reaction to seeing his wife so close to death. These scene could have *only* been told shortly after Balance Point. None of this story will get told. If it does, it won't make any sense. By the time Rebirth comes out, everything will have been in the past. Unless they do flashbacks, there is no way these scenes the Han/Leia fans want to see (their full and final reunion, Leia healing from her trauma) will ever be shown.
Even if we get the scene, it'll be too late. Rebirth takes place NINE MONTHS after BP. A reconciliation scene there after H/L spent all of Conquest off-screen together, would make no sense. I would love it to happen, though it wouldn't be logical. And that's one of the problems with the NJO. This storyline has been completely dropped unfinished.