Tired of NJO

Discussion in 'Literature' started by rogue9, Apr 24, 2001.

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  1. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Because DL,

    It seems that some "older" fans believe they are more self-important than other "older fans."

    I cannot see the logic in attacking NJO for "phasing out" older fans, yet then attack it for catering to the "older fans."

    Dewlanna can sit here and attack fans of the first 14 years as being insignificant, yet get all bent out of shape if the last decade's fans haven't been catered to hand and foot.

    Those readers who read JJK when they were the target audience for such books would be the perfect age to enjoy books like NJO - namely, they're generally adults now and/or capable of reading adult books.

    It's quite funny to see that it doesn't work the other way. It seems that there's some adults who aren't capable of reading the JJK children's stories. Perhaps we need to redouble society's literacy-awareness efforts. :D
  2. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    "Del Rey has listed the Junior Jedi Knights (along with Jedi Apprentice, another series aimed at the same age group) at the beginning of every NJO novel. From the start, Del Rey has indicated that these novels are part of the continuity that precedes the NJO. So readers have had clues regarding the possible inclusion of JJK characters (or YJK characters, for that matter) since Vector Prime."

    True in a way it was saying, "Your reading NJO, want to know what happened before it? Read these books to find out"
  3. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    DL:What's wrong with using characters from a children's series?
    There is nothing wrong with the proper use of any character.
    The problem with Ikrit is that he comes from a source that is unfamiliar to many readers and he is just plopped in with no background.
    If Ikrit was going to play a pivotal role in the Anakin story, he should have been introduced in an earlier story.
    This would have given interested adults time to find and read the JJK books.
    This would have made his appearance seem less like a ploy to pull in former JJK fans.
    If Ikrit is (was) so important to Anakin, why wasn't he mentioned before Conquest?
    There are several places where Ikrit's mention could have been seamlessly inserted into other books, but for whatever reason, he was totally ignored until now.


    AniSS: 1.Ikrit (and Tahiri, for that matter) are both mentioned in The Essential Chronology and other books not specifically aimed at 9-12 year olds.

    Ani, I read SW books for enjoyment, I don't think I should have to read the textbook like Essential Guides to know what is happening. Also, the Essential Guides are not readily available. They are very expensive, few libraries have them. A mention in the Essential Guides is no substitute for conscientious story telling.

    2.Greg Keyes was sensitive to the issue of people not being familiar with JJK
    characters .....

    This point and all your remaining points show that you (and G12 and Val) do not understand what the problem with Ikrit is.
    It is NOT that he is a character for a kids' book.
    It is that he is a character, in an adult novel, that comes from some place other then an adult novel WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS MENTION .
    He is dropped into the story, in a critical role with no background from other books.

    My beef ISN'T with Keyes, he did as good a job explaining Ikrit as could be done without boring those who knew about him.
    My beef is with the other authors, the editors, the continuity folks at LFL, the planning committee...who ever it was that decided not to bring this essential character from Anakin's past into the storyline at an earlier date so those who didn't know him from the JJK could feel the same grief at his dearth as JJK readers did.
  4. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    you're just looking for reasons to gripe now, Dewlanna, if that is your whole problem with Ikrit.
    All characters in a novel are considered "new". That is why we read through so much exposition about each character with each novel we read. Assume that each novel is going to be atleast one reader's first novel. So it hardly matters that Ikrit was never mentioned except in JJK.
  5. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    The problem is not that Ikrit is in Conquest- the problem is that he was not in Vector Prime, Onslaught, Ruin, Hero's Trial, Jedi Eclipse or Balance Point. His appearence in Conquest was great- his lack of build-up is not.
  6. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    Forgive me for backtracking for a moment. A question was asked, If I hate NJO so much why don't I stop reading.

    That would be a valid question and a possible solution, if I actually hated NJO.
    I do not. This series has frustrated, annoyed, depressed and sometimes entertained me. Perhaps that seems like not much of a distinction, but it is enough for me to keep hoping for something better with each book.
    My fear is that my hope has been diminishing.

    Mr. Salvatore asked, why should the character of Ikrit diminish the enjoyment of the story.
    I'm sure it did not for many readers. For my own experience it did. It diminished my enjoyment because in my reading of the story, I came away with the impression that the author wanted me to feel for this character, when I could not, and it felt to me as if I was expected to know who he was. I felt like I was missing an important element that was somehow off screen. It threw me out of the story. I had no clue who Tahiri was either, but her role was explained in a way that I could accept her.

    Perhaps it also calls up fears that including characters from a childrens book might leads us down that proverbial slippery slope. That once used, more such references will follow and the adult nature of these books will be diluted. I'm just speculating here, but I think this may be a valid concern. As others have said, more info sooner would have helped.

    As for Cilghal, I was not around for that discussion, but it seems likely that more people would recognize that name than those from a childrens series.

    Since we seem to be going in circles around this, forgive me if I spin off for a bit in a different direction for a moment.

    This is something else that I think could use a little work. I find I have trouble believing that the NR military and Gov. would not be taking a more aggressive stance in fighting these invaders. World after world is taken and they don't seem to be doing much of anything. Where are the capital war ships, where is Rogue squadron?
    What are they all doing? All we get is Borsk Fey'lya. And speaking of him, yes, he is the defininition of a smarmy politician, and very unlikable,
    one of those characters you love to hate.
    But...sometimes I think his character's traits have become synonymous with all Bothan's in general. Does anyone remember,
    "Many Bothan's died to bring us this information"? They used to be good guys!
    Perhaps some good Bothans could be brought in to balance Borsk out.

    And what of the Imperial remnant? What is happening to them? Are they not affected by the Vong?

    Two last things I would like to point out and I will shut up.

    Being a mother, I found it difficult to believe that Luke would have left the children on Yavin. The Whole Galaxy knows that he trains Jedi there, surely the Vong could have just looked it up. This place was an obvious target. The Luke I know would have moved them off that planet long ago.
    And why did they even need help getting off?
    It is a school. What school do you know that does not have an emergency escape plan.
    Like earth fire drills. Any responsible adult would have transport ready for just such a thing, considering the important nature of the subjects.

    Also I do think it is time for Mara to stop being written as speaking like the emperors hand. She's a Jedi and she's going to be a mother. I think she has learned to save her strengths and agression for the appropriate time's. She's learned how to love, she should be softer with her husband, and she can save her anger for their enemies.

    Yes, I'm done you can all start throwing the rotten fruit now. :)








  7. Anakin SkySolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Dewlanna--

    There is nothing wrong with the proper use of any character.

    And who gets to define proper?

    That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

    The problem with Ikrit is that he comes from a source that is unfamiliar to many readers and he is just plopped in with no background.

    Remember that Del Rey was trying to entice new readers to the NJO. Why would Del Rey and LFL assume that readers are familiar with any characters, other than the movie characters, at first appearance in the NJO?

    As for Ikrit prompting interest in the JJK series or interest in the NJO from JJK readers:

    • If Anakin Solo's importance to the NJO before Conquest AND the list of JJK books at the front of every NJO book (see my fifth point) didn't prompt a reader's interest in the JJK, I doubt that Ikrit's mere appearance or mention would do the trick for more than a handful of readers.


    • By the same token, I somehow doubt that JJK fans not drawn to the NJO by the presence and importance of Anakin Solo would jump into the NJO because of Ikrit's appearance--and death--in Conquest.

    My response continues in the next post.
  8. Anakin SkySolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Again, Dewlanna--

    Ani, I read SW books for enjoyment, I don't think I should have to read the textbook like Essential Guides to know what is happening.

    You don't. Greg Keyes provides the reader with background info on Ikrit and Tahiri (my second point). In fact, to enjoy the NJO, no reader should have to read any books outside of the NJO, in my opinion!

    Also, the Essential Guides are not readily available. They are very expensive, few libraries have them.

    Cost isn't really an issue. The Essential Chronology is less expensive than six Junior Jedi Knight books. The EC reads more like a narrative than the other Essential Guides.

    Also, Del Rey and LFL specifically marketed the EC as providing everything the reader needs to know about the Star Wars Universe to enjoy the NJO. The fact that Ikrit is mentioned in a book connected to the NJO by marketing is relevant.

    Finally, because the EC is aimed at older readers than the JJK, the book partly satisfies complaints that readers need to refer to "kiddie" books to find out more about Ikrit.

    This point and all your remaining points show that you (and G12 and Val) do not understand what the problem with Ikrit is.

    And maybe you don't understand our responses.

    It is NOT that he is a character for a kids' book. It is that he is a character, in an adult novel, that comes from some place other then an adult novel WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS MENTION.

    No wonder I don't "understand" the problem. You haven't stated your problem with Ikrit's inclusion using the same language before. I see no mention of "problematic" sources other than children's books, and I see a separate standard for the YJK books, which are only arguably "adult" books.

    Nor does your clarified standard change my third point. To illustrate that argument, here is a list of rival standards for the mention of EU characters in a NJO novel (note that these are examples only--they do not reflect my opinion):

    1. No characters should be included from sources other than adult and young adult novels, without prior mention in the NJO.


    2. No characters should be included from sources other than adult novels, without prior mention in the NJO. So-called "young adults" are kids too.


    3. No characters should be included from juvenile or young adult novels, without prior mention in the NJO. Comics, game-related sources (except for juvenile games), and other adult novels are OK because they are marketed to adults.


    4. No characters should be included from juvenile novels, without prior mention in the NJO. Young adult novels are OK because they are written for the younger edge of the same, mostly adult market for games, comics, and adult novels.


    5. No characters should be included from comics or game-related sources, without prior mention in the NJO. Irrespective of the age of the readers, comics and games don't necessarily appeal to the same people as do books.


    6. No characters should be included from game-related sources. No reader should be required to spend money on expensive game-related material just to find out who some character is.


    7. No characters should be included from Marvel Comics or West End Games. These sources are simply too difficult for the average reader to obtain.


    8. Except for a small group of core characters (Mara and the Solo kids), no characters should be included from Bantam novels, or any source other than Del Rey and the movies, without prior mention in the NJO. Del Rey should maintain the independence of its line of books.


    9. Except for a small group of core characters (Mara and the Solo kids), no characters should be included from any source other than the movies or earlier NJO books, without prior mention in the NJO. The NJO should stand alone as an independent series.


    10. The NJO should only include characters, without prior mention, from the list of books printed inside the front cover of every NJO novel.
  9. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Gandolf...
    "The problem is not that Ikrit is in Conquest- the problem is that he was not in..."

    I submit that is not a problem at all, because that's what the post-1991 Star Wars fans have deemed acceptable. If it is a problem to have characters appear in a book with no "prior momentum" then where would that leave the "kewl" characters like Thrawn, Mara Jade and Talon Karrde - all three characters who jumped out of the woodwork without any build-up for the first 14 years of Star Wars continuity. Now, a character has appeared in a whole SERIES of books and you're asking for more information on him!?!

    His appearance in VP, O, R, HT, JE or BP would not have been reasonable. The only books he could have appeared in would be O and Conquest - the two books with some of the most "Jedi action." He was in Conquest. For all we know he was in the other books as one of the unnamed Jedi. But that's unlikely, because his place has always been on Yavin 4. Which books have been centered on Yavin 4...Yep, you guessed it - Conquest. With the NJO, the references to prior continuity have been solid and reasonable. Ikrit is simply yet another example of such a reference.

    As for Dewlanna...
    You would make George Orwell proud. While all facets of Star Wars EU continuity are equal, you would hold that "some are more equal than others." :D
  10. CountJared Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 3
    Thrawn, Mara, and Karrde didn't die within the space of a hundred pages. We got to know them, like them, hate them, whatever. And besides, when HTTE came out there hadn't been any SW continuity in 6 years or so.

  11. Anakin SkySolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    That isn't true, Count Jared.

    Both of Troy Denning's earlier novels, Scoundrel's Luck and Jedi's Honor, set after SW4, were published by WEG in 1990.

    Other material from WEG was published between 1986 (when Marvel ended its Star Wars line) and 1991.
  12. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    Genghis: Some parts of continuity are more equal than others. The movies supercede most books and comics supercede some comics and books.

    Star Wars: A New Hope supercedes The Glove of Darth Vader in continuity, Heir to the Empire supercedes newspaper strip comics. The NJO's declation that the Vong are the first extragalactic civilization to arrive in the GFFA supercedes the Nagai's claim.
  13. CountJared Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 3
    Well, my point has been completely destroyed now. Its four years instead of six.

    (I've read Jedi Honor, and I have SL, and I don't see how they can be on the same level as a novel. in JH there are 3 different endings. which one is a part of the SW con that Ghengis12 is talking about?)
  14. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Count Jared...
    Adding more to it, Dark Empire was indeed in the continuity prior to HttE. It was started in 1989 and later shifted to Dark Horse comics. Only because of that shift did it by chance happen to get published shortly after HttE.
  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Gandolf,

    We're talking about the equality of non-movie sources. Hopefully you realized that when we're talking about NJO and JJK. As much as some people dream about their own pet EU item standing alongside the movies - it just ain't the way it is.
  16. CountJared Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 3
    I'm well aware of the history of DE. If I hadn't heard it elsewhere I would have read your numerous (and at times repetitious) statements regarding it here on the boards. (don't take that as a dig on DE. I love DE.) But I take issue with your idea that something in the planning stages and not even fully written or illustrated is somehow a part of the continuity before it is published.
  17. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    CountJared...
    "Well, my point has been completely destroyed now. Its four years instead of six."

    Yes, but CJ - that's only three years more than the gap between the last Bantam novel and VP. So, by that standard (since three years is really incidental if 6 can easily be modified to 4), we should've had a complete disregard for prior continuity before VP - introduced completely new characters, like say Luke being married to someone besides Mara, etc. Personally, I doubt if that would've made it off the planning table. :D

    As for Dark Empire, it was far enough along because Tim Zahn knew all about it after finding out while writing HttE. It was well beyond the "planning stages" while HttE was being written. I point you to Star Wars Adventure Journal #1 interview with Zahn where he talks about petitioning LFL to not have to worry about the comics as well as this interview with Veitch where he talks about the continuity linkages of Dark Empire:
    http://www.oznet.com/comicspage/tveitch.htm
    "T.V.: The Dark Empire series was originally supposed to take place directly after Return of the Jedi. Later, with the decision to create Star Wars novels, it was decided to move it to a period about six years after the Battle of Endor and the death of Darth Vader."

    The point is if a project is "not in the continuity" prior to being published, then why even worry about linking things together - that is, if it doesn't matter if something is still being worked on. However, if something does indeed matter, then one would expect people to require fitting it in - which seems to have happened in this case.
  18. CountJared Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 3
    "that's only three years more than the gap between the last Bantam novel and VP. So, by that standard (since three years is really incidental if 6 can easily be modified to 4), we should've had a complete disregard for prior continuity before VP - introduced completely new characters, like say Luke being married to someone besides Mara, etc. Personally, I doubt if that would've made it off the planning table."

    I simply don't agree with your reasoning at all. Besides the last Bantam book to come out was SoA in Aug, 3 months before VP.

    "The point is if a project is "not in the continuity" prior to being published, then why even worry about linking things together - that is, if it doesn't matter if something is still being worked on. However, if something does indeed matter, then one would expect people to require fitting it in - which seems to have happened in this case."

    Its not in continuity to the public reading the book if the subsequent story has not yet been published.
  19. LanceJade Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 4
    The worst part of all this is.... that the fans cant even agree to disagree most of the time.

    I've avoided this topic for the most part, because I have enjoyed the New Jedi Order. Each author has done an excellent job w/ what they have been given and the position they are in.

    I have enjoyed having characters from the "kids" books in the series, because it makes me want to go back and find out about them. Maybe I will have a chance and read one to my god son when he's older. But before then, it just means I'll have to do some more research on those characters.



    Also - continuity is important through out Star Wars... but my view, Star Wars is a myth, there are some things that just dont work too well (like Marvel comics and some Thrawn Trilogy statements to name just 2)... In a myth, some parts of the story are "fact" and some are not. The Essential Chronology did a great job in ironing out the wrinkles.
  20. Jades Fire Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    First off, I must thank you RASalvatore. By continuing to harp on the issue of Ikrit, you forced me to go back and look at the books in order to justify my arguments. I have found at least two instances, in two books, where Anakin and Ikrit could have interacted, and it wouldn't have hurt the narrative AT ALL.

    In Onslaught, all the Jedi started off the book on Yavin 4 at the Jedi Academy. Corran interacted with his son and mentioned visiting his daughter. Luke handed out mission assignments to many people. Perfect opportunity for Anakin to speak with his old master, Ikrit. They could have talked about events at Sernpidal or Anakin's upcoming mission. Also, given the deep bond that Anakin and Tahiri have, it was the perfect opportunity for them to be shown together.

    In Jedi Eclipse, the Solo boys, Jacen and Anakin, are back on, you guessed it, Yavin 4 at the Jedi Academy. Jacen and Anakin were arguing about Anakin's role in reactivating Centerpoint Station while Luke was talking with Karrde. Another opportunity to have Anakin talk to his first Master, for Ikrit to offer Anakin advice before leaving for Centerpoint, or to have Anakin interact with Tahiri.

    Though I cannot find the passage right now, I got the distinct impression from Conquest that Tahiri had not seen Anakin in a long time, like a year or more. If Anakin was on Yavin 4 in Jedi Eclipse, that wouldn't necessarily follow, as Jedi Eclipse is probably 6 months removed from Conquest. But that isn't really important.

    Finally, for all the thick skulls out there, I don't think I've seen anyone say that the JJK charcters shouldn't be in the NJO. What I have seen are people who think an important character like Ikrit should have been introduced earlier, such as when they are in the same place. To use RASalvatore's analogy, if an old friend, or an influential mentor, you haven't seen in a while is in the same general vicinity (like a small town), you usually arrange to meet, even if briefly.
  21. Skydancer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 2
    Hi, it's me again - the food metaphor writer.
    Well, nitpicker... don't worry no food in this post, so you can keep your flames off me.

    My question here is why continue with both the YJK and JJK series if the kids are going to rule NJO too? Isn't that overselling their characters with too much exposure and underselling the others?

    Aniss - Del Rey has listed the Junior Jedi Knights (along with Jedi Apprentice, another series aimed at the same age group) at the beginning of every NJO novel. From the start, Del Rey has indicated that these novels are part of the continuity that precedes the NJO. So readers have had clues regarding the possible inclusion of JJK characters (or YJK characters, for that matter) since Vector Prime.

    Which also means that the kids "star" in their own JJK and YJK and then "star" again in the NJO. Doesn't that show their more prominent roles in all the books in GFFA universe from now on?

    Aniss - LucasFilm treats all its books, comics, and games as part of Star Wars continuity. Anything in that package is "fair game." Not just other adult novels.

    I agree with the "fair game", but this is all just marketing to sell more, more, more. Where is the passion in creating good storyline that weave in beautifully from one book to the next and the next...

    Aniss - Also, Del Rey and LFL specifically marketed the EC as providing everything the reader needs to know about the Star Wars Universe to enjoy the NJO. The fact that Ikrit is mentioned in a book connected to the NJO by marketing is relevant.

    Yes, it is relevant but it is also marketing - refer to my comment above... (see that's the trick - go back and read to find out more equal to MORE SALES!)

    LanceJade - I have enjoyed having characters from the "kids" books in the series, because it makes me want to go back and find out about them. Maybe I will have a chance and read one to my god son when he's older. But before then, it just means I'll have to do some more research on those characters.

    There you go, more research for the "kids" equal more sales for the JJK/YJK series.

    I'm not saying that selling is 'BAD' (I've done sales before) or the inclusion of the "kids" is 'bad'. I'm just questioning their being included in every books from their own series and now the adult series too. I read the the 'kids' book myself, because I like Jacen,Jaina and Anakin in their own world where they rule. But do they also have to rule NJO. Where do you draw the line?

    Skydancer - piroutte out...
  22. Anakin SkySolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    In Conquest, it is clear from dialogue that Anakin and Tahiri had met the last time Anakin was on Yavin--during Jedi Eclipse. In that earlier conversation, Anakin simply refused to talk about Chewbacca. See the passages I quoted directly earlier in this thread.

    What I have seen are people who think an important character like Ikrit should have been introduced earlier, such as when they are in the same place.

    Not quite. People have specifically objected to the way Ikrit was introduced because he comes from juvenile novels. Dewlanna, for example, has developed one standard for such characters, and a separate standard for other characters. I see no reason for such separate standards.

    I'm undecided on whether Ikrit "should" have been introduced earlier. I doubt his presence would have particularly detracted from the stories told Onslaught or Jedi Eclipse, but I doubt that such scenes would have added much, either.

    Nor do I see much problem with introducing important characters at the point at which they become important to the story. Cilghal has no real role until Hero's Trial. Ganner had no role in Vector Prime, but he has a major role in Onslaught, his first appearance in Star Wars lit. Daeshara'cor has no major role until Ruin, which is also her first appearance. Her death in the same book has an impact upon Anakin not unlike Ikrit's passing.

    Ikrit is introduced when he's important to the story being told, and his past history with Anakin is described, albeit briefly. He's an important character for that book only, since he passes away in the same books. From a certain point of view, keeping his appearances confined to that one book makes sense.

    Skydancer--

    I'm confused by your reference to the JJK and YJK series continuing. No new books in either series are being published.
  23. Valiento Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    This is bad, but one of the reason's you don't see JJK, or Yjk characters in MAS titles, was he went in writing with a bias. One that wasn't in line with LFL's standards. The bias was that certain characters are from kid's books, so thought they should be ignored, and were of little importance.

    So that's his fault for not including characters. He really should have listened to LFL's standards, and not let his own bias controle the medium.

    So ideally, it may have been nice for ikrit to be mentioned. But it's too late to complain about it. If you want to complain, send all letters to MAS for messing it up.

    Not that I care, I'm fine with what characters show up when. (except for maybe that useless 2 chapter appearence of admiral daala in POT.) But it still stands, you can't bring in tahiri without bring in Ikrit. Since Ikrit was tahiri's master.

    Leaving tahiri out forever would have just left holes in continuity, as to why she just disappeared, and anakin didn't stay with her.

    Tahiri is a character that can grow in importance with each aditional book, barring she isn't killed.
  24. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Ani:Not quite. People have specifically objected to the way Ikrit was introduced because he comes from juvenile novels. Dewlanna, for example, has developed one standard for such characters, and a separate standard for other characters. I see no reason for such separate standards.
    Ani, I'd have the same objection if a computer game character, a YJK character, a WEG character or a comicbook character was just plopped in.
    Conquest is (supposedly) an adult book, the only characters that the reader should be expected to know anything about are characters from the movies and from other adult books
    Have I said this clearly enough for you to understand yet?
    It's not that he's from a kids' book, it's that he's NOT from the same medium as the book in which he plays a pivotal role.


    Nor do I see much problem with introducing important characters at the point at which they become important to the story. Cilghal has no real role until Hero's Trial. Ganner had no role in Vector Prime, but he has a major role in Onslaught, his first appearance in Star Wars lit. Daeshara'cor has no major role until Ruin, which is also her first appearance. Her death in the same book has an impact upon Anakin not unlike Ikrit's passing.
    Not the same. Ganner and Daeshara'cor are totally new characters. Everyone has the same degree of unfamiliarity with them.

    Wurth Skidder is a good example of how a non-novel character should be introduced.
    In VP he is a hotshot pilot/Jedi. We learn all we need to know by Mara and Leia's reactions to him. Whatever role beyond arrogant hotshot that he played in a comicbook was really not relevant to his role in VP. In the next few books he makes appearances, we learn a bit more about him. By the time he makes his ultimate sacrifice in JE, we all know who and what he is and feel appropriate grief for him.
    This is how to introduce existing characters from non-novel sources to a novel audience.



  25. anyueman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 1
    "This is bad, but one of the reason's you don't see JJK, or Yjk characters in MAS titles, was he went in writing with a bias. One that wasn't in line with LFL's standards. The bias was that certain characters are from kid's books, so thought they should be ignored, and were of little importance."

    Do not presume to know what is going on in another person's head. Prove your clairvoyance, then say things like that. ;)

    "So that's his fault for not including characters. He really should have listened to LFL's standards, and not let his own bias controle the medium."

    They were simply not necessary to the story he was telling. What's wrong with that? Besides, Holmes makes this elementary: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. (Kind of like with your psychic abilities). Just because Stackpole doesn't NAME any of the YJK or JJK Jedi in any scene (I can't say that with absolute certainty, but let's pretend), doesn't mean they weren't there. Just like Keiran being at the Academy. Anderson left a bunch of the initial crop of students unnamed for just that reason. Another author could revisit the story from a different point of view (as Stackpole did) or tell a story that implies, implicitly (a short story ending with the protagonist flying to Yavin IV, apparently to begin training) or explicitly ("So-and-so was a student at the Praxeum at the same time as Kam/Tionne/Streen/et al."), that a character wound up as one of the students.

    "So ideally, it may have been nice for ikrit to be mentioned."

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Big deal. Pray there aren't "special editions."

    "But it's too late to complain about it. If you want to complain, send all letters to MAS for messing it up."

    He didn't mess up, your premise is wrong. Unless you're trying to point out the dichotomy between the differing reactions to Salvatore's VP vs. Stackpole's DT. I don't think hate mail is EVER the answer.

    "Not that I care, I'm fine with what characters show up when. (except for maybe that useless 2 chapter appearence of admiral daala in POT.)"

    Even that wasn't useless. That was closure. Your opinion against mine. :)

    "But it still stands, you can't bring in tahiri without bring in Ikrit. Since Ikrit was tahiri's master."

    Sure you can. What if Ikrit died off-screen, before the events of Conquest. Devil's advocate should be a valid job title.

    "Leaving tahiri out forever would have just left holes in continuity, as to why she just disappeared, and anakin didn't stay with her."

    I never did finish YJK. Good suggestion, Valiento: Bring back those characters too.

    "Tahiri is a character that can grow in importance with each aditional book, barring she isn't killed."

    I think we can rule that last one out, based on hints Keyes gave in various interviews and chats.
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