Tired of the NJO (spoilers for SBS)

"War is hell" :-\ I dunno, you people complain too much. It's just a book, not real life, it's fiction. There for our enjoyment. I personally HATE every character living by pure luck. There's no suspense in a story if you know they're gonna live. I think that's why action flicks don't appeal to me anymore. As to the bash-I mean 'critics' I dare one of them to take the NJO and write it better than the authors do. Go ahead. No takers? Good then. Simple explanation to you people, which has been said before, don't like it? Don't read it. Simple as that. It's plain stupid to keep up with something ya hate. That's like someone watching the Toxic Avenger movies, hating them, and then going out and viewing the other 3 just to see what happens. And I notice the critics doing that too. They read the books on the excuse that they 'just want to see what happens' or 'I'm waiting for it to get better' that's stupid. And these critics are far too opinionated and biased to be fully objectionable. So word of advice, don't take theirs.

 

"As to the bash-I mean 'critics' I dare one of them to take the NJO and write it better than the authors do. Go ahead. No takers? Good then."

1. The oft-used argument that to criticize something you have to be able to do a better job of it yourself is completely illogical.
2. In my opinion, I can and have written better Star Wars fiction than the NJO. But that's not saying much. So have countless other people who aren't getting paid.

 

ChildofWinds, apology accepted on the mistaken name, it wasn't really a problem anyway. You do make a very good argument. You're convinced me that I need to go re-read both Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future but I was planning to anyway since they are both good books. You're also convinced me that OTHERS think of Leia as a jedi even her husband but I was looking for evidence where Leia refers to herself as a jedi. Not bothering to correct others who refer to her as jedi is not really convincing enough. A quote from Leia or another jedi would be.

Grand Admiral Wettengel, I am quite aware that the films and novels are two different mediums. That is my point. In the films it is only neccessary to briefly show an act of violence. Since the viewer can see with their eyes what's happening there is no need for the director to go into graphic detail describing scenes of violence if he doesn't wish to.

It is different in the novels, the author has to describe the scene clearly for the reader to see in their minds the scene the author is trying to bring across. If an author is describing an act of violence, how graphic the scene is depends on the amount of detail the author is trying to bring across to the readers. Whether the reader wishes to see this level of description in violent acts is totally up to that particular person.

Sure Zahn doesn't go in gruesome detail in his books. That's his style of writing. Mike Stackpole does go into gruesome detail. His style of writing is different. Greg Keyes didn't go into gruesome detail. His style is different from Zahn or Stackpole's. What I'm trying to say is that the level of violence and detail depends solely on the author. It is up to the reader whether he or she accepts it or not.

 

LoL, yeah. You're a professional author too hm Jeff?

 

Um, no...

I guess saying, "So have countless other people who aren't getting paid" might have been a little confusing. I was including myself with the people who aren't getting paid.

 

I write a fair bit. I know very well I couldnt better any author in the NJO

 

Missed that part, Im trying to hold like fifty billion convos at once.

 

I'm glad I've motivated you to read SOTP and VOTF again, Mecca-Don!

You wrote:
I was looking for evidence where Leia refers to herself as a jedi. Not bothering to correct others who refer to her as jedi is not really convincing enough. A quote from Leia or another jedi would be.

Okay, how about this? This quote from Leia comes from Specter of the Past, but since that is the first book in the Hand of Thrawn duology, of which VOTF is the second, I thought you might accept it:

SOTP p.208: "'Citizens of the New Republic,' she shouted, holding the lightsaber high. 'I'm New Republic Councilor and Jedi Knight Leia Organa Solo. I call on you to stop.'"

 

still keeps the standard term there though. It has be written Vader wiped out the Jedi Knights. Did he leave the masters or those in training? No, Jedi Knight is just the term, IMO

 

I didn't mean to make people angry, I apologize if I did. Thanks for the invitations to the NJO Critics club.

For example, people complain all the time about all the death and destruction in the NJO, about the millions of people getting killed, gruesome descriptions, torture, etc. but they seem to negliect the fact that in the first Star Wars film, A New Hope, millions of people died when Alderaan was blown up by the Death Star. Where were the complaints of death and destruction then? Where were the complaints when Owen and Beru Lars were roasted to their skelatal remains by the Empire? The level of violence isn't that much more than that in the movies.

Yes, there is a lot of death and destruction in the movies, but I don't recall it being so graphically described or so gruesome like it is in the NJO books. When Alderaan is destroyed, we see the planet blown up, we don't see millions of people dying in anguish and pain. When Leia is tortured, it takes place off-screen, while the NJO tends to detail out torture scenes. Just look at the scene in SBS when the young Jedi are being broken; we never saw that kind of blood and gore in the movies.

As far as the story arc being poorly planned out, I don't believe we can make an objective decision on that at this point. The story arc is only at the halfway point. Plot threads may be better described or picked up again later. The reader just has to have patience.

It would make no sense for Leia's injuries or Mara's illness to be picked up at later books, because they are already over and done with. Han and Leia's estrangement is now in the past and it wouldn't make sense to bring it up now. Those were three main story arcs that I thought were poorly executed because of the lack of resolution. (Yes, I know the e-book tied up Leia's injuries and the estrangement, but that was only because the H/L fans complained in the thread in lit, had they not, we probably would have never seen a conclusion. The company shouldn't have to wait until fans complain to write a proper resolution, they should have that planned from the beginning)

As far as characterizations go, Critics of the NJO seem to think Luke is supposed to be superman. Would you make sound decisions if your wife was dying of a strange illness? Or if your child's life was in danger? I don't know what kind of decision I would make if I was faced with those kinds of decisions. Who knows maybe I would have been indecisive too. All I'm saying is that Luke's reactions are believable for a human being. If he was a robot maybe he would make the right decisions all the time but he's not. Blame Mara's creator for her characterization. Timothy Zahn is responsible for Mara's current characterization when he wrote her that way in Vision of the Future. The NJO authors just picked up where he left off.

I don't think Luke should be Superman, but he should at least do something, it seems like all he has done in the NJO is preach and worry about Mara. That is just my opinion though. I don't see Mara as Zahn wrote her; Zahn's Mara was never that selfish or self-absorbed as she is in the NJO. This is my personal interpretation of these characters though; yours may differ.

It's time for people to place the blame where it is due for Leia not being a jedi. Bantam and Dark Horse constantly danced around the issue. First in Heir to the Empire, she's not a jedi. In Dark Empire, she is a jedi. In the Corellian Trilogy, Luke makes her a jedi even going so far as saying her training is complete. However by the end of Vision of the Future, she's not a jedi again. Del Rey at least decided to say she's not a jedi and not perform this sort of flip flopping like the previous publishers did.

I agree, Bantam did a horrible job with the continuity in Leia being a Jedi or not. However, as Child of Winds said, she was said to be a Jedi in Zahn's books. Even if she were not a full Jedi Master, she certainly could do a lot more with the Force in the later Bantam books than she can in the NJO. In the NJO

 

Oakley - I completely agree with you.

And I don't think I will read NJO any more...

 

Oakley, we members of the Critics Club have been critiquing the NJO since Vector Prime.What we have going on here is similar to the constant basher/gusher debates in the TPM forum. And I honsetly don't believe you made anyone angry.

You're absolutely right about the graphic, gruesome violence in the NJO. Some additional points from the films:

When Luke is taking on Jabba's goons on the sand sciffs, did we see decapitated limbs falling down into the sarlaac?

Mecca, some conclusions about the story arc can be made, since some of the story-lines have, in fact, been concluded. Mara is cured. The illness which afflicted her has been destroyed; clearly this plot point has now been resolved.

As far as the H/L estrangement goes, I just didn't see it. They were in different parts of the galaxy, and I don't recall either of them thinking about a growing rift in their marriage. But H/L fans saw it differently.

Luke has been far more than "indecisive" in the NJO (up to SBS). He has totally shriked-off all responsibility as the leader of the Jedi and he was far too selfish in concentrating on his wife. Luke Skywalker has always been a man of action. When making the trench run, did Luke ever pause to ponder how many Imperials would die? No. He never temporized. He was never bogged down by moralizing during the war against the Empire. However, moral relativism is present in the NJO in spades as far as Luke goes. I find this to be inexplicable. Luke had no qualms about sending hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of fellow humans to their deaths, yet when it comes to a disgusting, sado-masochistic race of barbaric alien invaders, he gets all bogged-down in morality.

 

Mecca-Don said: I totally disagree with you, Oakley. However, there are others who do. The NJO Crybabies err I mean Critics club over in the EUC is filled with many people who agree with you.

Mecca, If you really don't have a problem with people voicing their dislike for the NJO, why the childish name-calling? Didn't see a little emoticon there either. Didn't you once say that people should stop insulting others? I didn't see anyone prior to your post bad-mouth people who love the NJO.

Anyway, I just came here to say that this is about the 3rd or 4th thread entitled "Tired of the NJO". There are not really redundant. They seem to crop up every 4 or 5 months, all started by a newer member of the boards, after the old thread has sunk to the bottom.

You aren't alone Oakley! Keep your chin up. If you find you need sanctuary, come to the NJO Critics Club. We aren't the bashers some slander us to be. And if you appreciate a good bit of sarcasm, you'll definitely find a home. And with that, I bit this thread adeiu. I just don't feel like, nor have the time for, another trip on this merry-go-round.

 

Mecca, If you really don't have a problem with people voicing their dislike for the NJO, why the childish name-calling?

Says person in group who name calls every NJO novel

 

They are called Humorous Version names. I'd think that with all the lurking and trolling you do in our thread, you'd understand that by now.

 

Reaperfett...
"Says person in group who name calls every NJO novel"

So true. So true.

Jade's Fire...
"Mecca, If you really don't have a problem with people voicing their dislike for the NJO, why the childish name-calling? Didn't see a little emoticon there either."

Reaperfett said just about all that needed to be said, but hopefully you don't mind me admonishing you a bit. You shouldn't let people off the hook so easily with "didn't see a little emoticon..."

You act as if putting an emoticon on childish name-calling makes childish name-calling any better, any more acceptable, or any less childish JF. ?

 

Personally, I think the big problem of the NJO has been one of overkill, both literally and figuritively.
First, there's the idea of character death. Killing Chewbacca in VP was a powerful, sobering plot development. Unfortunately, it wasn't the end. You can only kill off or horribly treat the main characters for so long before it gets ridiculous. In my view, the NJO has practically become "Who gets it next?" It's almost gotten to the level of self-parody. (Without seeing any spoilers, my guess is the next target is either Ben or Mara. I don't see Ben getting killed, but Mara may as well get measured for her casket.) The heroes have all but become clones of the character of Peri in "Doctor Who", who existed for no other reason than to be abused by practically everyone.
Next, there's the Vong. This presents a problem that exists in much of entertainment today: villains being too bad. The Vong are presented as being worse than the Sith, the Empire, the Shadows, the Daleks and the Borg combined. They're shown as so utterly vile, bloodthirsty, menacing and hateful that their defeat will seem like a rip-off. The only way that justice will be seen to be done is if the last book features the genocide of the whole race, followed by their torment as the hands of Hell's demonic hordes. Not even Palpatine was seen as so terrible, and he was a Sith Lord.
Finally, in spite of the word that SbS is the turning point, things have gotten too dark. I don't like seeing the good guys constantly placed in such a deep, dark well of despair with no real hope in sight. It's like the series is constantly trying to imitate the tone of TESB without adding the battered hopefulness at the end. You keep wondering, to paraphrase John Sheridan, when they're going to get off their Jedi-robed butts and do something. (By comparison, while things could get very dark and dispairing in "B5", the heroes were always making positive strides by the next episode.)
Am I tired of the NJO? Yes. Have I given up on it? Yes. I'm not giving up on STAR WARS, though. I think the prequel books are good, managing to be exciting and well-written, even though we know what will ultimately happen. But, as far as the NJO is concerned, I'm taking a page from MST3K.
Once on the show, they featured a movie called, "The Girl in Lovers' Lane". In the movie, a nice, good-hearted character is brutally killed for no reason. The show's writers were upset by this, so they wrote a sketch about in the show. The 'bots get upset, too, until Joel tells them, "It's only a movie. If you don't like the ending, make up one of your own."
So, I've decided to act as though the NJO never happened. The last OT-era STAR WARS book was VOTF. You may say that I can't do that since Lucasfilm authorized the NJO as canon, but by that standard "The STAR WARS Holiday Special" is also authorized and I think we all want to forget that one.
Am I being a whiner? Am I being a crybaby? Am I being obstinate? Maybe so. But in my world, Chewie is still alive.

Sorry about being so long-winded.

 

thats your worlds problem...

 

Kenneth...
"but by that standard "The STAR WARS Holiday Special" is also authorized and I think we all want to forget that one.
Am I being a whiner? Am I being a crybaby? Am I being obstinate? Maybe so. But in my world, Chewie is still alive."

I hope you don't feel too silly about your poor choice of an example. Because the fact is that the Star Wars Holiday Special is at the same level as VotF is.

Besides the fact that you made a generalization regarding how "all" view the Holiday Special that simply isn't true as the basis for your opinion. ?

 

My apologies for my generalization. I was just saying that dismissing critcism of the NJO by saying "Well, Lucasfilm authorized it, so too bad for you," has pitfalls of its own.

But that still doesn't alter my views re: the NJO.

 

Now, now, children...we must play nice if we're going to play at all.

Okay, I've read through almost every single one of these replies to Oakley and noticed one profound problem. Either you LOVE the NJO or you now HATE it. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I received.

Personally speaking, I neither hate nor love the NJO. I've read all the books since the beginning, grabbing them up on the first day or release, but have also seen this continuous depression as the heroes suffer and the Vong are stalled.

I don't know if this makes me a good neutral reader, but I can try.

1) The Vong: First of all, the Vong are wonderful villains when it comes down to destruction and having a good excuse to cause it. Their religion declares it must be done. They look at the NR and the Jedi and to them, they are evil. Looking at that POV, they are not evil, but on an opposing side compared to the NR, (and, might I add, the NR seems awfully similar with the US and other familiar countries). However, critics of the NJO do have one solid point--the Vong are not living up to their potential. While the collective force of the group is strong, there really is no one three-dimensional character, (Keyes is the closest, I must agree). They're like the borg for the most part, a collective force without one real independent mind. This point has made the series stale.

2) Old characters vs. new. Okay, this part is a little odd. In the ideas of Joseph Campbell, there are heroes and there are spiritual guides. Heroes are young, not up to their full potential and, essentially, they must go out alone and do all the dirty work. Spiritual guides aid them, advise them and allow them the chance to become heroes.
This is where a lot of the problems of the NJO have started. Leia, Han, Luke and Mara, (plus some more), are not longer the heroes, but the spiritual guides. Sure, there are some action points and conflicts of their own, but all in all, they are no longer doing the work. Jaina, Jacen, Anakin, (well, not anymore), and all the other younger characters are taking position.
The problem with this fact, (at least for me), is that people WANT to see Leia, Han, Luke and Mara do things. They shouldn't be in this state, at least not yet. They are older and wiser, but people aren't concerned with that. The fact that the characters we are so fond of are not going up to their already declared potential is driving people nuts.

3) The violence: This is a touchy spot because people love drama and violence IS drama. There has to be a balance created to fulfill the readers and yet not over-throw the story itself. Personally, I was surprised by all the violence of the stories as they started in Vector Prime, Onslaught, and Ruin. But, just like viewers watching television from one decade to another, people get used to the violence and soon it's not dramatic enough anymore. It's like a bloody drug!--(pardon pun). So, now, SbS has gone up a notch and for the readers, (including myself), it's simply too much to bear. I've heard people on the forum say, "Well, blowing up Alderaan, and Leia being tortured was violent in, ANH...", true, but this isn't a movie nor is it displayed in such a detailed manner. When you get to the point when someone's hand is being melted off to the bone with acid, or one of your favorite character's has a rather barbarous medical procedure by another character putting their arm completely inside his stomach and chest, it goes to the point of disgust. (And, might I add, if that were shown on a movie of the NJO, there's no chance it would get anything less than an R rating.)

4) Death of the characters and realism: This one puts me in a weird position because I thought the death of Chewbacca was a good idea and the death of Anakin Solo a bad one. It's not really fair for me to put a, good or bad, on either because one might mean more to another reader as opposed to me. So, all I can give are my feelings. I liked Chewie, but found him to be a side-character. He was there only if

 

Jades Fire wrote:

Mecca, If you really don't have a problem with people voicing their dislike of the NJO, why the childish name-calling? Didn't see a little emoticon there either. Didn't you once say people should stop insulting others? I didn't see anyone prior to your post bad-mouth people who love the NJO.

Simple reason, I grow tired of hearing others namely the NJO critics call the NJO fans gullible, bloodthristy, insensitive, etc. I see no reason to sit around and wait to be insulted so I started off with my own retort. Call it a pre emptive strike if you will.

Oakley, you're right, we don't see millions of people dying in anguish in pain when Alderann was destroyed. Let's compare that scene with the battle of Coruscant is Star by Star. Obviously millions of people died here but how many of those millions did you actually see die? Not many. In Vector Prime, the battle of Helska-4, how many people did we see die here? Obviously, they did as it was a big battle but like the movies, the authors didn't go into details. Where the authors did go into detail were scenes of torture. Here, in my opinion, the authors needed to go into more detail to adequately describe the scene we happen to be reading. It is a difference in mediums. The authors of the novels have to describe the scenes in more detail because we are reading words on a page in a book. Whether you want to see this detail is as I mentioned in a earlier post, totally up to you.

As far as Luke not doing anything is concerned. Even Critics of the NJO will admit that Luke was in the thick of the action in Vector Prime, Onslaught and Ruin. It was Luke's idea to create the "great river" in Rebirth. It was Luke who lead the Jedi squadrons into battle in Star by Star. I would say that Luke has indeed done something in the NJO.

By the way, though I may not agree with you, I give you credit for a least voicing your reasons why you dislike the Yuuzhan Vong. It's more than others have done.

 

Building on Niralle's post, which explained how people can like SW, but not NJO, but still continue reading NJO I'll add:

The 'if you don't like it, don't read it argument':

Is plain stupid.

Here's why: A good number of those who are NJO Critics will read the NJO, not because they've been converted but out of fairness to the authors. What some will not do is buy the books, preferring to use libraries instead. They still like SW and do not wish to discontinue with a story. Further, though NJO Critics do not like the story thus far and do not have much if any faith in DR's ability to successfully resolve the story, they also intend to be fair to other authors. IF I accepted the argument then as an NJO critic I would be unfair to the authors of future books in the series by dismissing their work out of hand due to the events of the most recent book. That I will not do and if I had not:

VP to DT: Read and liked but had reservations with the graphic violence and politics.
AOC-BP: Discouraged by JE, liked HT, refused to blame either Luceno for the flaws of MAS' work or KT for those aspects of Luceno's work I disliked.
EOV-SBS: Not happy with reports of EOV1, read following reviews by Mastage and JMED and found it was not as bad as I feared. Similarly EOV2 restored H & L, put Jacen in their place, brought back the Rogues and started bringing pinpricks of light into the fray. SBS was a retrograde step, by reversing the gains made in EOV, in a way that seems artificial and forced. The Vong seem radically stronger in SBS than in EOV2 for example.

Yet, should I blame Elaine Cunningham for the flaws of Troy Denning's work? The plot points of which were not his responsibility, as they were given him by the editorial committee in charge of the NJO project? Should I be similarly unfair to Aaron Allston, Matt Stover, Williams, Dix and the other authors involved? No, but if I accepted the argument this post opposes, I would have to be.

I refuse to be such to authors and I would refuse to advocate that anybody should be so, hence my outright hostility to the use of the argument.

As a postscript, the argument that says I have to write better than an NJO author before I can critique them, is also foolish. The right of criticism stems from reading the work. If one buys or reads the book, by borrowing it from the library, then one has invested time and possibly money, in reading that author's work. As a consequence of that investment, one has the right to critique the work, irrespective of one's own writing ability. The same applies to works of cinema and music.

Jedi Ben

 

Excellent points as usual, Ben.

Additionally, if we take the fallacious argument that one cannot criticize any work without having produced a work of equal or greater subjective value, then why are there literary critics at all? Why have all those countless volumes detailing literary criticism in libraries?

A Critique of the Yuuzhan Vong

I feel that the greatest problem with the Vong is the total lack of the ability of readers to relate to them. The Vong are sado-masochistic barbarians who have enslaved most likely millions, destroyed a planet, altered the ecosystems of countless more worlds and, to top it all off, they are dedicated to the value of pain and will happily inflict pain upon themselves (with the only exception being Nom Anor).

Compare this to the Empire. I can sympathize with Tarkin's desire to destroy Alderaan, which was clearly a hot-bed of rebel activity, thusly the threat Alderaan posed to the stability of the Empire and had to be
neutralized.

The difference between the Empire and the Vong is the fact that the reader can comprehend and empathize with the Imperial view. What did Tarkin, Thrawn and Pellaeon want? Peace and order. The only way peace and order was to be established in the galaxy is through Empire. There are just far too many worlds for a democracy to be feasible.

The frame of reference that we rely upon for viewing the Empire is that of the modern totaltarian state. The specific totaltarian regime in mind is the Third Reich. Imperial uniforms harken back to the field gray and black uniforms of the Heer and Schultzstaffel in terms of design, only instead of field gray, the color used is olive green. Likewise, the Empire's political makeup appears to be similar to the Hitlerian state. Palpatine is as mercurial and capricious as Hitler and Imperial court politics is similar in style to the machinations of Hitler's onterauge.

The key point of this is the fact that many people are still alive from this time period and the brutality and nature of the Nazi regime is still studied in detail.

The Yuuzhan Vong are a different species. Their historical similarities are not found in the 20th century or even the 18th century. In terms of history, the Vong represent a throw-back to the Middle Ages when Europe was transfixed upon religion and "Christain salvation." Non-Christians were persecuted.

I see the Yuuzhan Vong as having emerged from the nightmarish, primitive Middle Ages due to their emphasis upon religion and their desire of effectively waging a genocidal war upon the infidels who are currently inhabiting their "promised land," their "holy land." In this sense, what we are witnessing is the Vong embarking upon a holy crusade to "cleanse" the GFFA. In this respect the Vong due possess some similarties with Nazi Germany - specifically in relation to lebensraum.

By having the Vong being such an anachronistic throw-back in terms of civilization, the developers of the story arc have inadvertantly made it impossible (from my POV) to be able to relate to them, or to only be able to relate to them in the most vile of ways.

Pain is very important the the Vong. They believe that through experiencing pain at the hands of the Embrace of Pain or self-inflicted wounds, that they can grow closer to their gods, who sacrificed body parts to create the universe. This emphasis upon pain and agony to acheive some sort of god-like self-actualization is a foreign and repugnant concept to many readers.

The Vong's empahsis on pain has lead to a bloodbath in the novels, as authors attempt to outdo one another in the depiction of violence and torture. We critics feel that graphic violence does not have a role in SW. The violence seen in the movies is only visible for a matter of seconds, while the NJO dweels upon violence and torture repeatedly.

 

Adding to GAW's Vong critique
1. The Empire was evil.
2. The Vong are still questionable in this regard.

That is, the Empire knew right from wrong and chose wrong.

I don't think it's been shown that the Vong even understand our perception of morality. They are more a force of nature - existing above/below our concepts of good and evil. I think that weakens them to some degree.

I find that to be their main problem. Granted, it has no bearing on whether they need to be stopped - but I would like to know the motivations.