Tired of the NJO (spoilers for SBS)

A turning point?! They're taking over Coruscant, Jacen's captured, and people are dying left and right.

 

Beyond their religious motivation Genghis?

The Vong do what they do because all acts in the name of their religion are sanctified by that religion.

That's it.

Depicting the Vong as a Force of Nature seems to place them in a class akin to volcanoes, earthquakes etc. Things that happen, things we know about, but things we cannot stop.

Neither can we apply the status of good and evil, as you recognise. This is a problem because SW is most definitely about good and evil, and perhaps how people choose one over the other.

By the end of NJO the Vong have to know their acts were evil, or be defeated by the NR as a matter of necessity, or the story simply says sophistic defences of evil acts are permissible, something SW should not seem to advocate.

The portrayal of Empire thus far has shown that there has to be a conscious choice to follow the Empire. Sometimes this involves subscribing to higher ideals that require lesser evil to crush greater evils, so the sacrifice of civil liberties to stop terrorists. Other times there are darker motivations.

The point is we can come to understand evil through the Empire, evil here is not some quality beyond our understanding, we can see how it works and oppose it.

I will concede that that interpretation of the Empire stems from EU, that the Empire in the films are simply evil because they are evil, as are the Vong. At which point several Q's arise:

If it is permissible to go beyond the violence limitations in the films, is it not also permissible to go beyond the simple line of thought in the films that the good guys are here and the bad guys there? The Prequels are perhaps doing that, in which case why revert to the simple mode that tells us nothing about evil, save it is bad and that we already knew!

In curiosity...

Jedi Ben

 

Genghis,

I agree with your fist point only in talking about Palpatine's Empire. After he died, the Empire ceased to be run by a military amateur and the Empire fell into the hands of military professionals. Additionally, I lump the various warlords under the "military professionals" heading, since all of them certainly had to have command responsibilities under Palpatine's reign; hence, they were professional soldiers at least early on in their careers before they gave into greed and power.

I have to disagree with any notion that the post-Palpatine Empire is "evil." Thrawn and Pellaeon were interested in restoring order to a disordered galaxy, but when it comes to Daala I'm not so sure. I know for sure that when she came out of the Maw, Admiral Daala was not interested in what Thrawn and Pellaeon were interested in - she just wanted to inflict damage without any broader plan of campaign. Even in Darksaber, I don't think she was interested in peace and order like Thrawn and Pellaeon. I just think Daala wanted vengeance for Tarkin. She indicated on several occasions that she didn't truly want to lead the Empire, she just wanted a military command to be able to destroy some rebels.

 

Well said, Grand Admiral Wettengel.

A complaint about the Vong:

My beef with the YV comes from their actions. They seem to be military geniuses, but only some of the time. For instance, Talfaglio. The Vong have never had a problem with lying to the NR and its citizens about their plans.

So why tell the Jedi and the NR military the truth about where the refugee ships were? It seems inane, just sitting and waiting for the jedi to make the next move. It would have been politically more sound to simply say the refugees where going to be killed at an undisclosed location if the jedi didn't hand themselves in. Then...kill them. What can the jedi do? Luke isn't going to start a war of vengeance.

If the idea was originally to draw the jedi strike force out to ambush it, why not say the refugee ships were at Talfaglio and then leave only a large, armed fleet there, waiting to ambush the strike force sent to recapture the ships? What Vong nincompoop came up with leaving the refugees at Talfaglio, leaving an opportunity for the Jedi to steal a victory? Stupid move.

Then there was the idea of a top-secret weapons-development lab over Myrkr, which was guarded so very aptly. That was brilliant. And the idea of only shaping one Voxyn queen, even better.

There was also the idea of leaving the shipwomb unguarded while the big worldship was unfinished, that was quite the stroke of genius.

These are all I can think of right now, although the list does go on.

My problem with the Vong is that from one part of a story to another, they are either mystically superior or inanely stupid villains. There has not seemed to be any middle ground.

 

I don't recall that any author has actually told us about Vong morals, and I honestly don't expect to see any such delving into "deeper" issues. Defenders of the NJO: That isn't a slam against the planning committee or any authors, rather it is my opinion that I feel is well thought out.

Thus far, we haven't received any clear picture of Vong society. Yes, we know of the different castes, we know the differences between them, but we know absolutely nothing of Vong "family values." If we know their "family values" we will know the values of their society and vice versa. Thus far, we haven't been made privy to either. And, with the story-arc half completed, I doubt we will get an explanation.

The reason that the Vong have come to the GFFA is supposedly because of Shimraa's vision. This leads me to believe that Vong society is simmering with tension between castes and domains. It was only Shimraa's vision that brought the internecine warfare to a close with a promise for each caste:
Warriors: A bunch of godless infidels to fight
Priests: A bunch of godless infidels to possibly convert, and to have many beings to sacrifice for the gods
Shapers: The ability to conquer a galaxy full of new lifeforms that can be altered to serve the Vong

I believe that Shimrra is hoping that all this will then lead to a Yuuzhan Vong renaissance.

 

Yes, Mecca, you are right in saying that Luke was in the thick of the action in Vector Prime, Ruin and Onslaught; then, without any explanation Luke turns into a wuss until SBS.

I see this self-inflicted paralysis as making little sense. Luke destroyed two Death Stars and and was affiliated with a government that destroyed the remnants of the Empire. Yet, he never stopped to engage in any moral debates; but this is all that Luke did throughout the post-Ruin pre Star By Star portion of the NJO. Five novels of Luke Skywalker doing absolutely nothing.

Yes, Luke establishes that "great river" business, but have we actually seen it in action? I don't believe so. Eclipse was set up in SBS. However, the only time that Luke was actually in the thick of the action again was in SBS. Luke made no attempts to go before the senate to request equipment or materiel or to report on just what the Jedi are doing. Luke complains about the fact that the politicians are against them; yet, he did nothing to try and change their perceptions. I realize that Luke is not a politician, but he still could have gone before the senate to provide them with status reports of Jedi activities and to take any advice some may have been willing to offer.

Instead, Luke appears to totally dismiss the politicians out of hand. I know this was the proper strategy for Luke to follow since these politcians are far too myopic to realize that peaceful coexistence with the Vong isn't possible, but I believe we should have at least seen Luke trying to get through to them.

 

Yes, Mecca, you are right in saying that Luke was in the thick of the action in Vector Prime, Ruin and Onslaught; then, without any explanation Luke turns into a wuss until SBS.

Maybe he saw that being as he let Corran do that duel, it is his fault a planet was destroyed and COrran left the Jedi

 

That certainly is a possiblility. However, I cannot recall any explanation in the text of any post-Ruin novel explaining Luke's hesitation in such a way. We were never made privy to Luke's thoughts.

 

Read what you like. If you don't like it, don't read it.

But you should read it.

 

GAW,

That is the problem, I posited a theory explaining Luke's inaction pre-SBS, post-DT. I found it fell down on the Centerpoint and Yavin affairs but more importantly, I only came up with by building on the text. The ideas I came up with fit the source material, but are not actually prsent in the material. Whch is a shame because it made sense to a degree.

Jag Fel,

I have not liked NJO but neither will I stop reading it, it takes much, much more than NJO has done thus far to make me drop a story. It would have to descend into the darkness and moral murkiness of Donaldson's Gap or Martin's Song of Fire and Air to stop me reading it. The formre has some good points, but goes overboard in portraying a serial rapist sympatheticly.

Let's say I did do as you advise though. Would you support that decision or cry foul, that I was being nfair to the series by juding it on only half it's installments?

Jedi Ben

 

GAW...
"However, I cannot recall any explanation in the text of any post-Ruin novel explaining Luke's hesitation in such a way."

When has anything been explained to such detail in the EU? I don't think it has - IMO, I don't think, historically, Star Wars has ever done that. The NJO isn't any different in that regard. If Star Wars was like that, then we all would have absolutely nothing to discuss here.

So if historically it hasn't been a requirement, then why must Del Rey be held to some other standard?

What I come up with would be to raise quality over the Bantam novels - which is a noble goal, I agree. But, if people were happy with the quality of Bantam's novels, then I'd say it might be unfairly penalizing Del Rey if they fall short of a raised standard, but about equal to the existing standard.

 

I don't think it's been shown that the Vong even understand our perception of morality. They are more a force of nature - existing above/below our concepts of good and evil. I think that weakens them to some degree.

Perhaps in their own view of thesemlves. Since they have a different scale upon which morality is ultimately weighed, they can't judge themleves objectively. However, their view of themselves is irelevant when held up to the light on how the galaxy and our heroes see them, since it is filtered through their senses and concepts of morality, which is clearly designed to mirror our own.

The Yuuzhan Vong would see themselves as following through on the will of their gods- taking a war of purification to the infidels. That's all fine and good the common Yuuzhan Vong, but poor justification on the side of the people they are making war on. In some cases the galaxy is 'innocent' since they have never purpetrated any act of aggression against the Yuuzhan Vong, save for their simple existence.

To the avergae citizen, who like us can only watch, but also have less information than we do, the Yuuzhan Vong are very clearly evil. Since they see only the slaughter of countless peoples, hostage taking for ransom purposes in order to extort the Jedi from the New Republic, and hostages used as shields during the attack of Coruscant.

Stepping back a bit, once the events of Ithor have sunk in, the average citizen might learn that Corran Horn had attempted to bargain for Ithor's existence by dueling Shedaio Shai. The bargain was, that if Horn defeats Shai, then Ithor would be left alone, conversely, if Horn loses, the Yuuzhan Vong would take possession of the planet. In the end, Horn defeated Shai in single combat, then the Yuuzhan Vong destroyed the planet with a deadly virus.

From that the average citizen of the galaxy would have no doubt that the Vong lack any sense of honor as they understand it. Plus, it would be seen as a calculated, sinister act. And therefore, evil.

Now, from our heroes' perspective, who have encountered and dealth with the Yuuzhan Vong first hand, they are clearly evil. There is no way anyone alive could convince Han, Leia, and Luke otherwise, for they have suffered and lost perhaps more than anyone else on a personal level. Corran Horn was humiliated on a galactic scale for his actions at Ithor, and all have dealt with the Yuuzhan Vong taking hostages- commonly seen as an act of political terrorism here on Earth. The Solo kids and other Jedi have all suffered and died for the edification and enjoyment of the Yuuzhan Vong.

A race that has raised sadomasocism to an art and do so for enjoyment (embrace of pain) would obviously find inflicting pain and suffering on others pleasurable. My own mind cowars at the prospect of Yuuzhan Vong mating rituals.

So, perhaps they are a force of nature since to the average observer, there seems to be little justification in their minds as to why this invasion is happening at all.

 

People were happy with the quality of the good Bantam novels, i.e. Zahn, Stackpole, Allston, and Crispin. We were hoping that the NJO would be consistently good, unlike the Bantam line. Instead, it has only met the standards of the poor to mediocre Bantam novels. And looking back, it seems that Bantam was finally getting consistent quality toward the end of their run with Hand of Thrawn, the Solo trilogy, and Allston's books (with the notable exception of the horrid, but completely inconsequential to the main story, Bounty Hunter Wars). I think it's likely that I would be enjoying the current EU more if Del Rey had not taken over.

 

For what its worth ( a great song by the way ) I like NJO. It is NEW. SW must get passed the OT. If it weren't for these books what would All of us SW fans do ? Wait for GL to make films ? I have news for you people, the movies end at EPIII. I will NOT wait. I will read all of the books. I will love them and hate them. And read all of your complaints during the journey. What would you people do if NJO was the last of SW ?

PS. I,m kinda "bugged" out though. Bring on some Dark Jedi

 

Jeff...
[image=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/eyes.gif]

That's my point, Jeff. You use Zahn as an example. So, to name some of the qualities of a "good" Zahn novel - Zahn had a complete and utter lack of continuity, total mischaracterization of preexisting characters, absurdly simplistic stories and arbitrary coincidences - just to name a few of the qualities of his books.

Stackpole's and Zahn's "good" qualities had the superelevation of key EU characters over the mains (a criticism levelled at the NJO uberkinden) at the expense of those mains.

So, why do people fault Del Rey for using the same formula? ? It seems hypocritical to me to fault Del Rey if they're using the very same things that people point to as the "best" of Bantam, yet pass off the exact same faults as Bantam's shining stars.

 

Genghis,

For all of DR's preaching that this story-arc was going to have tight internal continuity, I am quite disappointed.

The reason that I feel explanation is required for Luke's drastic change in behavior is this: Luke has always been a clever man of action. While he may not be politically astute, he makes up for it by his entire attitude, steadfastness and calm demeanor. I've always seen Luke as being serene, but I feel that the NJO has pushed this aspect of Luke's personality to ridiculous heights.

These ridiculous heights include removing all emotion from Luke. Yes, Luke is a Jedi, but he is also a human being with dreams, fears and everything inbetween. The Luke Skywalker of the post-Ruin through EoV is a cold, unfeeling monk who doesn't want to show emotion over losing students and seeing everything that he worked for turned upside down. Can't we see that Luke is still a human being? Hopefully Allston will be able to convery Luke's humanity, which has been lost.

Del Rey must be "held to some other standard" because Luke Skywalker is not some other character. Luke Skywalker is Star Wars, and any changes in his character had better be explained. Luke is not a pathetic wimp who wants to stick his head in the sand and hope that the bad old Vong will go away.

Did Luke adopt such a pacifistic attitude with the Empire? Nope. So why adopt it with the Vong?

 

because he is under the thumb with Mara

 

Genghis,

Stackpole's and Zahn's "good" qualities had the superelevation of key EU characters over the mains (a criticism levelled at the NJO uberkinden) at the expense of those mains.

The problem with the "superelevation" of "key EU characters" over the mains could be traced back to Larry Stu. For evidence of this, I'll just remind everyone about the two models who posed as Corran Horn and Talon Karrde for Decipher.

We must remember that Luke, Leia and Han are not geniuses. For Thrawn to be elevated over them is perfectly understandable, since the grand admiral was a tactical genius - a genius which the reader was able to see on several occasions. This can be contrasted to Admiral Daala, who we only read about being a military genius, only to see her get defeated time and time again. She proved to be a poor tactician, while Thrawn did not. Thrawn's failure was one of intelligence for not keeping better track of the loyalties of the Noghri.

Now, I do not believe that the uberkinden are any sort of Larry Stu or Mary Sue. DR and LFL just want to pass the torch on to the insufferable upstarts. Maybe if their personalities were a bit more deferential of their family, I would like them more. However, when Lucas passes the torch onto the next generation, he has the previous generation die.

This hasn't happened in the NJO. Instead, we have both generations existing at the same time, and an obvious pandering to the uberkinden - especially noting that an entire novel focused practically exclusively on one of them.

If the torch is to be passed, LFL could have at least done with their boss does and killed-off Han, Luke and Leia.

 

Han had almost an entire book with Heroes Trial. And Conquest and DJ have major roles for Karrde and Kyp(I hear, anyway)

 

GAW...
"The problem with the "superelevation" of "key EU characters" over the mains could be traced back to Larry Stu..."

Traced back to... again... Bantam's Larry Stuism. This was fairly rampant among the main Bantam EU characters like Talon Karrde, Mara Jade, Corran Horn, etc.

"For evidence of this, I'll just remind everyone about the two models who posed as Corran Horn and Talon Karrde for Decipher. "

100% Agreement.

But, you missed a key part of my point. Certainly, there's no problem if the bar is raised above those main characters - based on the benchmark of those characters (i.e. the superelevation of the characters). My point was superelevating of EU characters at the expense of the mains - i.e. typically known as the "dumbing down" and "mischaracterization" of the mains to elevate others. If Thrawn was good based on his own merits above everyone, no problem. But, Thrawn was made good by the lowering of everyone else. Major difference between the two.

No, Luke, Han and Leia aren't geniuses - but they're not the complete imbeciles we've seen in the "best" Bantam novels like TTT and HoT either.

You addressed the first point - one which I would tend to agree with. However, taking both (the elevation of characters at the expense of lowering everyone else, for example) as a whole, that's where there's a problem.

So, if the claim that NJO has dumbed-down characters, or mischaracterized them, then this is no different than what the "best" Bantam ones have done.

 

And how was everyone else "lowered" to make Thrawn "look good?" Are Han, Leia or Luke academy-trained military tacticians or strategists? Also, we should remember that the military operations they undertake in the films were simplistic to the extreme. Thrawn wasn't betting it all on one throw of the dice like the Emperor was at Endor or Tarkin was at Yavin IV. Instead of concentrating on a single battle, Thrawn was always focused on the broader objectives of the entire campaign; he never placed all his eggs in one basket.

I really don't believe that Luke, Han and Leia were dumbed down in the slightest--especially since Thrawn's campaign was a total of three months. The grand admiral was stopped rather quickly.

Leia, Han and Luke weren't dumbed down in Zahn's books. The key to stopping Thrawn was locating and destroying Mount Tantiss, but since it took Thrawn quite some time to find out about it himself; it was unlikely the rebels would have learned about it in short order.

It makes sense for Luke to have been pulled in by C'Baoth--and not solely because of the discarded Obi-Wan insane clone idea. It certainly makes sense for Luke to be interested in any Jedi who survived the purge--clones or not. Luke needed to rebuild the Jedi order and C'Baoth was a potential source of information that could not be ignored. Additionally, Luke is a very caring individual; for him to want to help the insane Joruus was perfectly in character for him.