main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph To Boldly Trek Where Many Geeks Have Gone Before- VOY: Drive, Repression & Imperfection

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest , Jun 25, 2006.

  1. KissMeImARebel

    KissMeImARebel Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    That's a good point. I was checking the numbers, and for anyone else who wants to know:

    - Generations: $35M (budget), $118M (box office)
    - First Contact: $45M, $146M
    - Insurrection: $58M, $112M
    - Nemesis: $60M, $67M

    Although I do think it's fair to consider the role budget can play in shaping these films. Which isn't to say that a small budget has to equate with a bad film. FC didn't feel like a small film because it knew how to work within it's constraints: all FC had was Crew vs Borg on the Enterprise and Riker et al on a camping trip in a junkyard, but due to the plans of the villains and the limited resources of the protagonists -- both of which were organic to the story -- the stakes were high and the threat felt tangible.
     
  2. TX-20

    TX-20 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 2013
    I wish those four TNG films got the same budget that ST2009 and STID did. Then we could have seen some really special films.

    Or more of James Cromwell dancing.
     
  3. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    First Contact also had a director in Frakes, who was intimately familar with the TNG cast and the Borg aspects of it to know what would work and what wouldn't work for it to translate to the big screen and within the budget for the film.
     
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  4. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    He also directed Insurrection. Which everyone but me hates, apparently.
     
    halibut likes this.
  5. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Frakes' direction is fine in Insurrection. It's Michael Piller's script that made the movie what it was. IIRC, Frakes doesn't like the movie himself.
     
  6. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004

    I've never heard that before, although in retrospect, I have heard him say that he doesn't like These Are The Voyages...

    Yeah, as I said Paramount obviously wasn't willing to spend $120 million plus on Star Trek at the time.
     
  7. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    I thought it was Braga that wrote Insurrection? Or maybe my memory is playing tricks on me again?
     
  8. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004

    No, Insurrection was written by Rick Berman and Michael Piller.
     
  9. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Enjoyable? Again, I'm on my own :)
     
  10. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Ah, Berman had a hand in it. Probably why it was crap (see: Enterprise series finale)
     
  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Braga and Moore wrote the first two TNG films. They were busy with Voyager and DS9, respectively, at the time Insurrection was written.
     
  12. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    His comments are softer than most (he's been more vocal about his dislike of Nemesis) but he basically said he was happy with his work, but he felt the script was very weak and made for a lesser movie.

    Agreed, by this point (and the subsequent episodes) the show no longer feels like an echo of B5 in Trek clothing because the wars are fought very differently (you also have the entire Federation and it's allies fighting the war, whereas B5 was cut off from Earth and had to scrape together it's fleet a piece at a time). Probably the closest to what you describe would be B5's Earth Civil War campaigns where we do get to see both sides of the conflict trying to outwork the other (as opposed to the Shadow War where it's always "our side" that has to describe the counter actions of the opponent, generally).


    And now we return you to your (un)regularly scheduled thread content:




    VOY 326: Scorpion, Part I
    -Premise: Upon entering Borg space, Voyager encounters an alien race even more powerful than the Borg and bent on destroying all life in the galaxy, forcing Captain Janeway to enter into an alliance with the Borg in order to defeat them.

    [​IMG]

    -T2Q Comments: Alright, let's get Swedish. Resistence is...usually futile. My fear is that they just gimped the Borg in 20 seconds flat. However, you can still make that a good thing- but it's a trick you can only pull once. If it doesn't go well, there's no going back and no do-overs.

    [​IMG]

    Professor Salla-Gimli, nice. I can imagine the sight of a Borg fleet on your tail is certainly a "well, we're boned" moment. For some reason I particularly love this green scanning laser effect. Something about the depth it has makes me think its a practical effect.

    The Borg passing them by is kind of interesting- especially when you think back to the first encounter with the Borg and how they generally ignore you unless they want something from you or you pose a threat.

    Nice attention to detail: Voyager's logs on encounters with the Borg don't include the First Contact battle for obvious reasons. Though once again it seems Hugh and the Rogue Borg are completely ignored.

    [​IMG]

    Cube graveyward delivering on earlier Unity concepts. Borg corpse totem pile. Clearly we need to summon Will Grahmn.

    All CGI beatsie- Species 8472. I'm venturing the theory that they are the ancestors to Cloverfield and other awkward-to-look-at beasties that have followed this type of design since. It's very alien, you gotta give them that, but I don't think I've ever really liked their design at all.

    The argument between Janeway and Chakotay over her plan is a very good scene- they're not shortchanging either side of the debate. To the episode's credit, they still maintain the threat of the Borg even while negoiating with them.

    Species 8472's ships definitely have a Vorlon element to them. They also seem to have a Death Star element to them. ;)

    [​IMG]

    ..and this did happen to air 3 months earlier...

    [​IMG]

    ;)

    New big bad and Borg, as well as setup for what we know to be Seven's eventual introduction. Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: The parable Chakotay recites that the episode takes it's name from is commonly known as The Scorpion and the Frog, though Chakotay swiches out the frog for a fox.

    When the produces were debating if they would feature the Borg on the series they had still decided to feature a Borg graveyard- if the Borg had not been used on Voyager, then the graveyard would have been the result of the Borg's defeat in First Contact, instead of an attack by Species 8472. The graveyard visual itself was intended to be a mirror to the Starfleet graveyard of ships in the aftermath of the Battle of Wolf 359.

    The original plan for the 3rd season finale was going to be Year of Hell, but was changed due to the decision to change up the cast. It also replaced an undeveloped story that featured mimetic lifeforms that would return to Earth as Voyager dopplegangers and "cause havoc". The initial concept for this episode was also influenced by Braga viewing a promo for Unity and feeling that they couldn't just do Unity, as it wouldn't have been enough.

    The Borg armada fly-by was part of an attempt to refocus on presenting memorable, large-scale images in the 2 parters of Voyager's 4th season. Some abandoned ideas involved battles in quantum slipstreams and subspace tunnels.

    The inclusion of Leonardo Da Vinci was, at least in part, Kate Mulgrew's idea/suggestion. John Rhys-Davies was cast without audition and accepted, being a long-term Trek fan.

    By time Scorpion was made, they had taken the persona of Janeway and made her more like Kate Mukgrew ("In 'Scorpion Part I' [Janeway] was becoming a little more risk taking, and edgy, and frankly, a little bit more like Kate Mulgrew. I've always said, even Jeri Taylor used to always say, 'if Captain Janeway were only more like Kate, we would have a much better captain on our hands.' For whatever reason, our writing and Kate's kind of freewheeling personality seemed to come together a bit more, at the end of the [third] season.").

    When Janeway is aboard the Borg ship and speaking to the colelctive, Mulgrew imagined she was in an extremely contained space surrounded by hordes of serial killers, to aid her performance.

    Ironically, they set out to have an effect for the 8472 planet killer beam that looked different than the Death Star. Turns out that green scan beam was CGI afterall, but they intentionally aimed to have it seem dimensional. The Borg body pile is actually made up of 12" Playmates Borg figures. A single shot of the Borg drone using his tubules to attempt to assimilate the bioship was done by ILM.

    The teaser for this episode is one of the shortest teasers in Star Trek. It is intended that Speces 8472 is what caused the Borg cube in Unity to be disabled (not sure that tracks with the timeline of events however... I think the Nekrid Expanse makes for a better origin to that storyline myself).

    The refernece to Captain Amasov is in in-joke reference to Asimov. In the UK, this eoisode was the highest rated program on Sky One for that entire month.




    VOY 401: Scorpion, Part II
    -Premise: Captain Janeway forges a shaky alliance with the Borg Collective to defeat Species 8472, leading to a new potential crewmember coming aboard.

    [​IMG]

    -T2Q Comments: Rather dig the piece of music used at the end of the teaser here.... Janeway's "We will not be assimilated" scene tense. Seven of Nine debuts. The mine seems to be designed after the look of the Rogue Borg ship.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    32 torpedoes? I'm going to call BS on that.

    The Borg's rotating attack is an interesting detail- we've never seen the Borg's higher level tactics before, as they've never been forced to use anything above the low level "we are unstoppable, run" approach. New CGI warp flyby.

    You would think that, by this point, the crew would come up with a different name for Species 8472, even if only a nickname or shorthand like "SPX", Species-X, "Variables", "the 72's", anything.

    Actually, you'd think the SHOW would have come up with a shorthand name for them by now...

    [​IMG]

    Seven's comment of humans lacking "harmony" evokes the Best of Both Worlds BTS info regarding the music of BOBW and how the choir of doom in the Borg theme was intended by the composer to conceptually be the "song" of the Collective- doing what it was meant to do.

    These Borg, at least 7 of 9, have much less trouble with using personal pronouns like I and My than Hugh did.

    [​IMG]

    Borgified Voyager- somewhat. 13 torpedoes armed and 1 warhead. The nature of fludic space does permit some interesting trail effects for the ships- kinda like those annoying engine trails space-based video games tend to use that always look awful, yet here actually look appropriate in this setting. 4 warheads fired.

    So, a pretty good ending, though where it goes from here is the real question when it comes to the ultimate perception of the Borg. Once you gimp the Borg with a bigger, badder baddie, you really need to stick to making them the new Big Bad and not step back to try to reelevate the Borg to that position.

    Anyways, obvious this is Definitely Essential. Voyager finally getting to the core of what the show came to be known by.

    Trivia: Originally Braga intended to include a reference to the Borg being more vulnerable since the loss of the Queen in First Contact, but this was dropped due to it being primarily exposition. The idea of having an individual speak for the Collective like Locutus or the Queen was an inspiration for this episode as Berman was adamant that you get bored with the Collective voice pretty quickly.

    Seven of Nine was conceived by the time the first episode was written, but her introduction was held off until part 2 to accommodate the casting process and allow it to take place over the summer. For the first few scripts featuring her character, Seven of Nine was referred to by a human name. When they realized that didn't seem right, they went back and revised it to Seven of Nine.

    After being cast, Jeri Ryan was surprised to learn she'd be playing a full Borg drone for the first two scripts she'd be filming- something that hadn't occurred to her as her auditions revolved around her character in a transitionary state. Paniced that her character would be talking in that state, they aimed for the character to not be like the Queen or the typical drones but rather a hybrid of sorts. Ryan found Seven's voice based on the advice given to her by Winrich Kolbe- an image of a Prussian general that guided the military bearing.

    From this episode onward, the opening credits were adjusted to remove their character's ranks, except for Janeway's. Seven's Borg makeup was done by the same artist that worked on the Borg Queen in FC.

    TNG's 4th season premiere involved separating Picard from the Borg, as VOY's 4th season premiere involves separating Seven from it. Seven's role as a epresentative was the justification for her voice and speaking patterns not being similar to other Borg we've seen (besides the Queen), as she needed to be more conversational. The 3rd most watched season premiere of the series, behind the pilot and second season premiere.

    Up next: VOY 402: The Gift, VOY 403/404: Nemesis & VOY 404/403: Day of Honor.



    Voyager Resources:

    Torpedoes: (Starting with 38, as of The Cloud)
    -1 fired in The Cloud (37 remain)
    -3 fired in Alliances (34 remain)
    -7 fired in Dreadnought (27 remain)
    -3 fired in Resolutions (24 remain)
    -3 fired + 1 "Dispersal Pattern Sierra" (5 torpedos according to Yesterday's Enterprise, but we'll assume a minimum of 2) in Basics, Part I (between 16-19 remain)
    -1 fired in Future's End, Part II (between 15-18 remain)
    -1 fired in Rise (between 14-17 remain)
    -4 fired in Scorpion, Part II (between 10-13 remain) (complement claimed to be 32, which would leave 28 if that were correct)
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  13. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    The problem with Scorpion is that they decided to bring someone who can defeat the Borg...on the episode that they introduce the Borg as the villain of the series.
     
  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    In their defense, at this point in the series, the Borg were not yet the villain of the series- so it wasn't an intentional introduction in that regard.

    It wasn't until they kept going back to that well with Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, Endgame, etc that the Borg became the series villain and retroactively made Scorpion their introduction in that capacity.

    I'm more annoyed with Species 8472 being intentionally introduced as the new Big Bad and basically being defeated in their introduction. They only really appear in two other episodes (one of which is more of a footnote to Scorpion used to help introduce another Big Bad).
     
  15. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    The idea of the Borg actually being pragmatic enough to form an alliance with Voyager and not simply assimilate the ship was interesting, but they had to nerf the Collective to do it. Although in retorspect, it does make me wonder, are there warp-capable Delta Quadrant civilizations that have regular contact with the Borg, but have avoided mass assimilation because the Collective has decided that that's not in their best interest. In TNG, Guinan did say that it might be possible to come to an understanding with the Borg some day. Are there civilizations that have actually managed to do so?
     
  16. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I liked "Scorpion." It's among the top Voyager episodes, though that isn't saying much. (and it's been a few years since I last watched) I don't think there's any problem with introducing a civilization that can defeat the Borg; it's that Voyager, on its own, was able to defeat the Borg. "Unimatrix Zero" was absolutely awful in part because of this. "Endgame" had the excuse of magical future technology, but it's also a big offender in that department. I don't think the Borg were "overexposed" or that Species Numbers took their teeth. I think it was comical that a solitary, tiny Starfleet ship was able to swat them aside over and over because of its former drone, EMH, and borderline psychotic captain.
     
    Nobody145 and Sarge like this.
  17. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    That's a good point- I don't think we've seen an example of the Borg doing their "Not a threat, not worth assimilating. Talk to the hand." routine to a species outside of the occasional Federation incursion aboard their ships.
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  18. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I don't have a problem with introducing a civilization that can defeat the Borg, I have a problem with them introducing it that early.
     
  19. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    When Voyager hits Blu-Ray in 5 or 6 years, I totally want the series box set blurb to be "The Federation's deadlist enemy must face their former drone, an EMH and a borderline psychotic Captain."

    "(also Harry the Doppleganger)"
     
    BigAl6ft6 and Nobody145 like this.
  20. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Apparently the Kazon aren't worth assimilating, :p
     
    Sarge and The2ndQuest like this.
  21. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Scorpion was a good 2-parter but it lost something in its finale when the producers basically decided to resolve the ethics conflict over allying with the Borg as Janeway = right, so sidestepping what was done well earlier.
     
  22. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000

    VOY 402: The Gift
    -Premise: Kes' telepathic and latent psychokinetic powers begin to grow rapidly while Voyager's newest crewmember, the former Borg drone Seven of Nine, deals with her new individuality.

    [​IMG]

    -T2Q Comments: Voyager still rocking some Borg mods. Seems a bit weird that severing connection with the Collective would allow the implants to become rejected- you would think assimilation wouldn't be so easily rejected or based on so fragile a set of requirements to be sustainable. Why would you want to remove/scrape off Borg armor? Seems like that might be useful to keep around, so long as it's not tech that the Borg could access to use against you. Armor plating seems pretty straight forward.

    "I guess the Borg meet a lot of people, don't they?" Oh, Harry, you stupid, stupid man.

    "I've got an Ocompa that wants to be something more and a Borg whose afraid of becoming something less. Here's to Vulcan stability."

    Looking past the "swap out" facet of things (dropping Kes so soon after bringing Seven aboard is a little too obvious), the "gift" is nice moment, gives ya a swell of emotion.

    [​IMG]

    "I also took the liberty of stimulating your hair folicles- a vicarious experience for me, as you might imagine."

    [​IMG]

    This last pullback shot gives a nice point of reference as to scale- something we haven't gotten much of with Voyager (and that which we have gotten has been conflicting or confusing at times).

    The joining of Seven, the departure of Kes, the shaving of 10 years off their journey (someone better be throwing her a damn party in her honor), Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: This was originally intended to be the 5th story of the season but scheduling changes with Jennifer Lien necessitated it be the 2nd. Bryan Fuller was the one who pitched the means to writing Kes off the show. This episode serves a similar function to "Scorpion" that "Family" did to "Best of Both Worlds".

    The writing staff's perception of the Borg in regards to Seven shifted from that of a drug or cult from which Seven was going cold-turkey from to that of a child raised by wolves, their collective state awe-inspiring at times like a wolf pack, despite their dangerous nature.

    Moore did not approve of the decision to discard Seven's Borg appliances. ("Why can't she look like a Borg? Why does she have to be this supermodel with a couple of pieces of tech on her head? It's just silly. It just belies the whole function of bringing her aboard. If you're gonna bring her aboard because she's a Borg, that's a threat and an odd thing. You want her to be in the face of the crew.").



    VOY 403/404: Nemesis
    -Premise: Chakotay is trapped on a planet where two species are fighting a genocidal war against each other.

    [​IMG]

    -T2Q Comments: Another shuttle down? They're dropping like flies.

    And once again we have a race of total humans, here an attempt to not cover them up with forehead ridges or skin spots but rather slightly Gungan'd vocabulary: "Glimpse there!". Slap you!

    "The Nemesis has nullified mine and ours in the before and will in the now, but in the soon after?". Oh good *** dammit- am I watching Spaceballs right now? I can't be watching Spaceballs right now because if I was watching Spaceballs right now that dialogue wouldn't be pissing me off. I'm starting to greatly look forward to the end of this episode, but- when will then be now? Soon. How soon?

    Some small, interesting insights into Chakotay during his reflections on he battles against the Cardassians. Well, glad that there was no pay off to the whole "the novice is a very good shot" setup. Kinda wondering what Chakotay did with his uniform when he switched to the camo.

    it is a bit different to have the perspective of the episode shifts halfway through- starting exclusively with Chakotay and then jumping to Voyager's search for him. The Nemesis aliens look like they took left over Predator face molds and, with the leader, slapped them on David Bowie in Labyrinth.

    "Motherless beast!" come on, Chakotay is really going to be using local insults in the heat of the moment?: Ok, so they explain why he does that at the very end. A twist is somewhat expected, though the specifics are not. It does bring things to a somewhat abrupt ending, as if there should have been more transition. But that is a minor nitpick.

    The whole episode is supposed to be about propaganda, but I feel that function comes across more explained to us in the final scene or two than actually shown during most of the episode (especially when the effect on Chaktotay is attributed to drugs and other stimuli).

    This actually might have been a good episode if not for the highly unnecessary pig latin which just makes it annoying everytime you start to like it- and it's undermining to the goal of the story. You can't expect the subtext to be effective if people are struggling to get through and follow your surfacetext. For that, I must punish it more than it deserves. "Average".

    Trivia: Working title was "The Recruit". "Nemesis", like "TNG: First Contact", would go on to be used for a theatrical film's title. Once Jeri Ryan joined the cast, this is the only episode of Voyager that Seven of Nine does not appear in. The Kradin were intentionally designed to look similar to the Nasicaans (Tapestry, etc). The Kradin aircraft were Harriers modified with cgi.



    VOY 404/403: Day of Honor
    -Premise: Lieutenants B'Elanna Torres and Tom Paris admit feelings for each other while close to death; a race of homeless aliens ask for Voyager's help but are not quite satisfied with what they receive.

    -T2Q Comments: Blood Fever Vulcan crew member returns.

    "The bottomline is I don't want her working in Engineering."
    "The bottomline is I'm giving you an order and you're going to follow it. Lieutenant."

    Logical progression that they'd investigate transwarp tech options after having access to a Borg. Kinda odd that Janeway wouldn't spare a glimpse at Seven during the conversation about the Borg and these survivors- particularly because she makes several side glances to Chakotay throughout the discussion.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    interesting alien design- can't help but wonder if they're related to the Voth somehow. Is he played by Cochrane?. Another shuttle down! LOL! Probably want to be a bit further away from that expanding debris field, no?. I'm finding it odd that Tom is talking slower for no apparent reason, "We have to try to make it last as long as possible" so maybe you should stop talking?.

    [​IMG]

    So, significant character relationship developments, with Tom/Torres and Seven/the crew. It also deals nicely with Borg-related threads and a notable problem with the core being ejected and held hostage. Overall quality is pretty good as well. I'd be inclined initially towards Good Episode, but I'm going to raise it to Potentially Essential. You don't need to see this episode but it creates a nice flow to carry the story forward.

    Trivia: Part of this episode is actually inspired by the Day of Honor novels which invented the holiday Torres partially observes in this episode. Tthe novelization of this episode was also written by the same author of that miniseries.

    Dawson was satisfied with the episode but not entirely so with her performance, feeling some of the effects shooting hampered her somewhat, in addition to being 3-4 months pregnant. One of the few people that knew Dawson was pregnant was Paris actor Robert Duncan McNeil, who was very insistent they got breaks every 15 minutes on her behalf.

    When Seven of Nine joined the cast, Jeri Ryan was anxious about the technobabble dialogue, where she was advised by Garrett Wang ("Just be glad you're not an engineer, because the engineering people get all the technobabble. That's the really bad job!"). Oh course, almost in the next episode here, ("I'm doing a scene with Chakotay and I'm requesting a duty assignment, and he says, 'Oh, do you have anything special in mind?' and I say, 'Oh yes, I want to be in engineering.'").

    To create the sense of drifting during the spacewalk , the effects team came up with a series of rigs that would support the actors while still making them bob up and down, referred to as "teeter-totters", "see-saws" and "turntables". The EV suits used here were from First Contact- Tom Paris also uses the term "first contact" while wearing one. Torres says the zero-g enviornment makes her sick to her stomach, which Worf also expresses in First Contact.

    The Caatati are mentioned in Season 2, but given the distance between where Voyager was then and where it is now, it is likely just a recycled name.However, given that a Caatati can be seen in Quark's bar a little later on, it's quite possible they were just spread very far out by the Borg attack.

    Though the viewing order here changes it slightly, The Gift, Day of Honor and Nemesis are three episodes in a row that lose a shuttle.



    Up next: DS9 601: A Time to Stand, VOY 405: Revulsion, DS9 602: Rocks and Shoals & VOY 406: The Raven.



    Voyager Resources:

    Shuttles: (Unknown Starting Value)
    -1 destroyed by Chakotay/Kazon in Initiations, unnamed.
    -1 destroyed by Kim in Non Sequitur, Drake.
    -1 destroyed by Paris in Partuition, unnamed.
    -1 dismantled by ex-Borg Raiders in Unity, unnamed.
    -1 lost to Kes's evolution in The Gift, unnamed.
    -1 destroyed by Chakotay in Nemesis, unnamed.
    -1 destroyed by the Caatati in Day of Honor, Cochrane.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  23. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Just to mention, I think the Star Trek Online MMO started calling Species 8472 the Undine. Haven't gotten around to playing that MMO much, but the Undine are somewhat a big presence there, so it was nice that they finally got a name rather than the Borg designation. As you said, you'd think they would have come up with a nickname or something by then (especially given what happens in a later episode).

    I think this is where I started watching Trek TV, as DS9 was really gearing up (I remember the Dominion War just starting up) and Voyager was... just still moving along. I didn't mind the Borg being undermined that much at the time, as its almost comforting to think that the Borg ran into a species that even they couldn't deal with, that had such a strong immune system Borg nanotech wasn't enough. Then Voyager comes along, adjusts Borg tech a bit for their own use, and they're unstoppable for the rest of the series. :rolleyes: Well, the crazy Captain, former drone and EMH are the only important characters on board the ship.

    In retrospect I hate the intro of Seven since they got rid of Kes and it started the process of downgrading almost every other character, aside from Janeway and the Doctor. Its a gradual process, and the Paris/Torres romance at least gives them a subplot for the rest of the series, but this is where the show started going downhill (not that it was ever great, but still).

    A few episodes later on show how some other species deal with the Borg, or attempt to not get assimilated, as well as the repercussions of Voyager essentially saving the Borg.

    Kes' departure was at least a nice, mostly happy moment. They had already gotten rid of her relationship with Neelix, I forget if they mentioned that Kes was nearing the end of her lifespan or not around this time (I think she was two years old when the series started, and her species typically lives only five years, I forget how old those who went with the other Caretaker were). Too bad they couldn't just leave it on that note, but that's for much later.

    I don't mind Nemesis as much as Insurrection. Insurrection was really silly (especially that joystick scene). Neither are great, or are mediocre at best, but I'd probably rank them, or at least tolerate them more than Into Darkness. Nemesis at least had a pretty cool starship battle scene (like that ramming scene).

    Was never sure if it was just meant as a cameo or as humor, but seeing Janeway as an admiral (forget her exact rank, but something admiral) in Nemesis just seemed so... appropriate. She's perfect for that rank.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  24. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I recall people being upset that she was promoted after the various things she did. I figured Starfleet just wanted to get her behind a desk where she could do less damage. ;)
     
    Sarge and Nobody145 like this.
  25. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    I like Insurrection :(
     
    TX-20 likes this.