Amph To Boldly Trek Where Many Geeks Have Gone Before-DS9:Sound,Tears of the Prophets,VOY: Hope&Fear

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest, Jun 25, 2006.

  1. TiniTinyTony Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2003
    star 6
    After watching the new movie, "Star Trek Into Darkness", I got a hankering to watch the original movies. Yesterday, I watched "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" (1979). It's not my intention to upset anyone, but it was pretty bad. It felt like it took them forever to do anything. Hurry! There is a cloud coming to Earth killing everything in its path, but let's take 15-20 minutes and pan around the outside of the ship 10-15 times before we actually go inside it and go anywhere.

    I hope 2 is better and thankfully that one and 3 is on Netflix streaming so I won't have to wait for the discs.

    I'm sure I'll get to 8 in a few weeks so I can discuss it. :)
    Last edited by TiniTinyTony, May 21, 2013
  2. Chancellor_Ewok Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 7

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  3. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
  4. Nobody145 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 5
    Yeah, First Contact is probably my favorite Trek film. Yes, yes, most of the even number TOS films are more popular, but I started with TNG so its always been a personal favorite. That and I just love the Sovereign-class Enterprise E. Partially its the technology and out of universe design aesthetic, but its kind of interesting how most of Starfleet more recent ships are all darker grey. The Defiant was a warship, and really great to see it put to its intended purpose here (fighting the Borg), but the Enterprise-E sure looks like a warship too.

    Not to mention the opening battle. Wolf-359 was a slaughter, but here it almost seems like Starfleet threw almost every ship they had at the cube and kept fighting it all the way to earth. Although yeah kind of silly for Picard's dramatic pause while another ship blows up, heh. Not to mention all the other nice-looking new ships. Too bad they didn't have a bit more time and budget for it. Not to mention another reminder of Starfleet's infinite wisdom. :p

    I always liked how Picard was in the TV series uniform for the flashback/nightmare, really adds to the horror. Convenient how Picard could point out a weak spot, but I figured he felt it from his residual link with the Borg, as he kept hearing their voices. Especially since it seems unusual for a Borg ship to have a weak spot (back in Q Who didn't they say they couldn't detect any vital systems, everything was decentralized and regenerating?). Though considering its the Borg, that would probably never work again.

    And drunk Cochrane is pretty funny, and yay, Barclay cameo. The best thing about the holodeck is actually purposely turning the safeties off instead of another malfunction. Although I was never sure why they didn't try to come up with physical weapons since Borg shields kept adapting to phaser frequencies. Well, short of building railguns for starships that probably wouldn't work out and no one expected to battle drones like that.
  5. Chancellor_Ewok Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 7
    Yeah, I've been saying that for years,

    No, you wouldn't fight drones like that, you'd fight drones with shotguns, claymores :D and grenades, but chucking a 500 pound duranium rod at a Borg cube at sufficiently high velocity should hurt. A lot.
    Last edited by Chancellor_Ewok, May 21, 2013
  6. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Technically, three- that first one was a double shot since I've been so far behind.

    The Motion Picture didn't earn it's nickname "The Motionless Picture" for nothing. ;)

    I actually loved the parade around the Enterprise- keep in mind this scene is introducing the brand name ship design/refit from the classic design, so we kinda become Kirk, wanting to see all the new details.

    If you're curious, you can read my original commentary review of TMP here. And, once you watch it, my commentary review for ST2 can be found here (both were short enough so as not to be affected by the truncated post issue resulting from the board move- I'm hoping to start the gradual restoration process on the others soon).
    Last edited by The2ndQuest, May 22, 2013
  7. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10

    DS9 513: For the Uniform
    -Premise: Sisko obsessively pursues Maquis leader Michael Eddington.


    -T2Q Comments: Defiant fully functional here. Following up on the Maquis and Eddington plotline. Holocommunictor... given the advanced hologram tech of Trek, I'm surprised they haven't done this sooner. They've done a very good job with Eddington as a protagonist.

    "Sir, have you ever reminded Starfleet Command that they stationed Eddington here because they didn't trust me?"
    "Please do."

    Gotta love angry Sisko, even when he's angry at himself. You don't really get raw rage like that from the other Captains (Picard on extreme occasion maybe- and Kirk's most ragey moment, "KHAN!!", was just an act and not for real).

    Trek often has to come up with various systems offline from damage for the sake of whatever story conceit limitation they want to work with, but to their credit- we haven't seen this particular configuration before, with the manual relaying of information and such. Usually it's just shields, weapons and core ejection systems.

    Return to the Badlands. There's an angle we haven't had on an Excelsior-class before... quite dynamic for a ship adrift. Sisko doing some Thrawn art magic right here. Well, that was a really unexpected play by Sisko- you assume that somehow he'd reveal the attack was a trick or could be counteracted. Nope. He really poisoned an inhabited planet. Sure, the planet swap mitigates that somewhat, but still, damn.

    Resolves the Eddington arc (at least for now), furthers the Maquis arc and is just damn great. Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: The holo-communicator was Moore's idea, supported by Behr. However, it was not seen as a successful idea (difficult to distinguish between it and a beam-in without additional effects, which increases the costs above the use of a viewscreen) and would only be seen once more (in Doctor Bashir, I Presume), unfortunately.

    The manual running of the Defiant bridge crew was an homage to the movie Run SIlent, Run Deep, which was directed by TMP directo Robert Wise.

    Scripted scenes not in the final episode included O'Brien discussing Eddington with Bashir while Quark brings them food on the Defiant. Captain Sanders was cast with the intention of being a recurring character throughout the sixth season (and probably being killed off later in that season), but the idea was never put into motion so Sanders was never seen again.

    VOY 316/315: Coda
    -Premise: After her apparent death, Captain Janeway's journey to the afterlife, guided by her father, leaves her with suspicions.


    -T2Q Comments: "Come on, Chakotay. There must be some talent that you have that people would enjoy." (Q note: evidence so far is to the contrary)
    "Maybe I could stand with an apple on my head and you could phaser it off."
    "Sounds great. If I miss, I get to be Captain.";

    Vidians possibly return? Or just their tech?

    "We'll fire if we have to." But we won't.

    Pretty brutal Vidian moment. Got a timeloop going here- rather interesting that they're not trying to make the loop the entire structure of the episode... again harkens back to that next-next generation vibe from Season 1.

    Janeway getting the Phage. Then again, maybe the timeloop IS the structure of the episode...

    "That's more like it."

    You'd think Janeway would try "physical" contact during the mind meld session given that that was what seemed to trigger Kes's detection of her.

    The memorial service is quite well done...but it has the same problem that the "farewell to Paris" scenes had last season: the fact that these events are not permanent (or at the very least, not long-term) rob them of a lot of emotion and also reduce the effectiveness of any episode that might follow-through and do these things for real.

    So this guy is sort of a Soul Hunter meets Wraith. Janeway makes a strange transition from being an angry and all "go to hell" to, upon waking up, a softer, more "maybe it was the afterlife afterall" curiosity that feels out of place.

    I like how the episode does a good job of continuing the Janeway/Chakotay friendship, albeit it just a little. The "spider Matrix" entity holds for some interesting possibilities if he does indeed continue to stalk Janeway... kinda interesting to be somewhat literally stalked by death. A shame the real Vidians didn't factor into the story as a last hurrah.

    The placement of episode seems a bit weird if we do in fact return to the Nekrid Expanse elements, however. Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential.

    Trivia: Working title was Fractals. This episode is the result of combining several plot ideas the writing staff had been considering that weren't working on their own. Jeri Taylor integrated backstory elements for Janeway from her Janeway novel Mosaic. The anomaly Janeway and Chakotay see from the shuttlecraft is a recycled visual effect of the anti-time anomaly from All Good Things.

    Up next: DS9 514: In Purgatory's Shadow & DS9 515: By Inferno's Light.
    Last edited by The2ndQuest, May 30, 2013
  8. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 9
    I'd forgottten about that Sisko/Odo scene where Odo's asking him to remind Starfleet about why they posted Eddington on DS9 in the first place. That continues to amuse me to no end.
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  9. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10

    DS9 514: In Purgatory's Shadow
    -Premise: Garak and Worf investigate a message which suggests that Cardassian spymaster Enabran Tain is still alive. Upon their arrival, not only do they find Tain, but also General Martok... and someone they did not expect.


    -T2Q Comments: Garrak, huzzah! Throwback comments about the lost fleet from Die is Cast, also continuing Garrak's acquaintance with Dukat's daughter. Definitely a followup to Dice is Cast in general, really. More Worf/Dax. Dukat returns as well.

    "Public opinion seems to be running against you."

    Feels a little strange for Dukat to be walking around the station somewhat casually to talk to Kira in a cafe.

    "You are to avoid Dominion ships at all costs. I want you back here in one piece."
    "What about Garrak?"
    "I want him back too. I suppose I don't have to tell you to keep a close eye on him."
    "At the first sign of betrayal, I will kill him, but- I promise to return the body intact."
    "I assume that's a joke."
    "We will see."

    "I just don't see why these Runabout replicators can't provide a more varied menu. I'd like to get my hands on this fellow Earl Grey and tell him a thing or two about tea leaves."

    Martok returns- well, the real Martok debuts I suppose would be the correct phrase. Reference to "the recent Borg attack" from First Contact.

    So Bashir has been replaced by a shapeshifter for the past several episodes, judging by the uniform (sadly this twist was spoiled by some Memory-Alpha entries so I can't really judge the surprise of it). Etain is Garrak's father, nice addition.

    Didn't expect this one to be a ninja 2-parter like Die is Cast, but, in retrospect, given the connections, that shouldn't be too surprising.

    Followup on the Die 2-parter, more Grarak/Dukat, Bashir revelation, and a Dominion invasion on the Alpha Quadrant...seems pretty damn important. Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: Originally planned to be a sequel to For the Uniform, inspired by The Great Escape, and focused on Eddington's escape while being pursued by the Federation, with the perspective having Eddington be the good guy and the Federation the bad guy. However, the producers were unsure if the fans were behind the character, so it was reworked while maintaining the prison break concept and turning things towards the Dominion.

    We see here that the female Changeling was lying in Broken Link when she claimed there were no Cardassian or Romulan survivors from Die.

    Though this episode references the Borg attack from First Contact, the stardate mentioned in Part 2 is still set before FC's stardate (thus a proper order from stardates can't be made exactly- the general fan opinion seems to be to assume Picard said the wrong stardate by accident due to being distracted by his Borg nightmares).

    Bashir's uniform implies he was replaced by the Changeling before the events of Rapture- this would mean the Changeling Bashir performed the surgery on Sisko, delivered the O'Brien's child and was either unable or unwilling to save the Changeling child. Bashir says he went to bed one night and woke up in prison. Obviously this means he was very tired and fell asleep in his uniform.

    The dedication to Derek Garth is due to Garth's death in a car accident on his way to work on this episode as a grip.

    DS9 515: By Inferno's Light
    -Premise: The crew tries to defend the Alpha Quadrant from the invading Dominion fleet; Worf, Garak, and the other prisoners prepare to escape from the Dominion Internment Camp. (Part 2 of 2)


    -T2Q Comments: Cardassia joins the Dominion. The freaking Breen are still such a Boushh ripoff. Hard to tell if Worf is wary or enjoying this. Gowron and his baby blues return. Khitimer Accords reinstated- that's gotta be a raise in Sisko's paycheck.

    I mean, even the Breen's clothing... it just needs a staff and it can go to Celebration VII.

    "Victory is life."
    "Today IS a good day to die."

    Seeing as how they keep cutting back to the Breen in this scene, the only logical conclusion is that the Breen will take the mask off and reveal himself to have been Jigsaw the entire time.

    Romulans joining Klingons and Federation ships, a lovely sight for a Fleet Junkie- "I'll be damned."

    Go Breen!- "Never turn your back on a Breen."

    The only thing that feels cheap about the escape is that the Runabout was unguarded/left in orbit intact. Interesting trap idea.

    "Armageddon will have to wait for another day." Aww, but I want the world to end now!

    Well, while unfortunately holding back on the Big Battle it promised (it makes it feel like the show is pulling it's punches just to prolong the inevitable big battle for the season finale or some such- worse even, it feels like it's pulled that punch twice between the cliffhanger and, now, the end of part 2) and feeling like it's cutoff the potential of Dukat's private little war subplot prematurely, still had enough unexpected and satisfying elements to make this one Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: Andrew Robinson also suffers from mild claustrophobia and was suffering from the flu when they shot the crawlspace scenes. "I didn't have to act. I was there."

    Cardassia's economic depression and Dukat exploiting that state to rise to power was based on the Weimar Republic of Germany between the two world wars, and Hitler's rise.

    Though prior episodes had seemed to be softening Dukat into a protagonist, the producers claim they always intended for his change of heart to be temporary. "Dukat is a self-deluded, opportunistic, egomaniacal sadist. In other words, he is the Richard Nixon of DS9 He will do whatever it takes to come out on top."

    The producers felt the two-parter would have worked better as a single 2 hour show or extended 90 minute show, due to the pacing and amount of setup.

    Ikat'ika is the only Jem'Hadar to appear in more than one episode.

    Up next: VOY 317: Unity, VOY 318/319: Rise, DS9 516: Doctor Bashir, I Presume, VOY 319/318: Darkling & VOY 320: Favorite Son.
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  10. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2013
    star 2
    Worf's fight scenes were awesome.
  11. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    "I cannot defeat him. I can only kill him."
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  12. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10

    VOY 317: Unity
    -Premise: Chakotay is injured and trapped on a world where the inhabitants are engrossed in conflict, but the people who rescue and care for him harbor a disturbing secret.


    -T2Q Comments: Nekrid expanse scouting- so are they passing around it or going back to it from the last few planets? Or this is the other side of the expanse?

    If she was brought her in stasis...wouldn't that mean she was taken around 70 years ago? ok, so Paris's boredom suggests they haven't come across anything in awhile and Janeway's log says they are still looking for a way it's unlikely the prior episodes took place in the middle.

    First Borg ship encounetred- an apparent derelict. The initial premise is a very interesting one and doesn't feel redundant to anything done so far (a growing concern as you feature the Borg more and more). If her claims are valid, she's trying to do a bit of Federation building here, but it doesn't appear she's being truthful.

    Hints at an adversary more powerful than the Borg. Ah, wait, nevermind- they are the Borg, that would explain the 70 year problem. This Romulan actually looks like he might have been the inspiration for the Nero Romulan redesign.

    It seems like, at least for this episode, the few shots of Voayger flybys have tried to adjust angles ever so slightly to try and make the ship look sleeker and larger than it actually is.

    This montage is rather good- though it does seem to imply the Borg have had a much larger presence in the Alpha Quadrant than we've previously been led to believe. Chakotay was able to read this woman's mind and found out what they were planning to do- but that plan is based on the Borg Cube... which, at the time, Chakotay knew nothing about, so there's no way she could have found out from bis mind that the Cube had been found intact, for her to be able to formulate said plan and have it read by Chakotay.

    "In fairness, however, I will give it some further thought." 90 seconds later and the decision is made. Marvelous fairness there, Janeway.

    It's a little demystifying having the Collective voice giving "normal" commands... plus it sounds like ROB 64 and makes me feel like I'm playing Star Fox- "We are under attack!". So now there's the Cooperative. Wonder if they ever hook up with Hugh and the Rogue Borg?

    Well, that was a bit different- the Borg here (the remaining zombie drones) aren't as threatening as the FC ones despite being of similar design but the Cube is treated with enough of a sense of danger as a derelict that makes it a worthy portrayal. It seems like they could have really built off of this and made Chakotay the Borg character for the crew to advance the character somehow, but that's obviously going to be a missed opportunity since we know Seven of Nine is en route.

    The first real Borg story on VOY, so we'll go with Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: Directed by Robert Duncan McNeil. The episode's concept takes inspiration from The Tower of Babel myth, with the idea of a deborgified community suddenly having incompatible languages and behaviors. That concept was merged with another notion of comparing things to the fall of the Soviet Union, with disputes between former members and a renewed nostalgia for communism following the dissolution.

    Originally instead of one Cube, Voyager was to have found a Borg Cube graveyard meant to mirror the aftermath of Wolf 359. This visual concept was held over and eventually used later on.

    Although the writer intended Riley's motives to be noble, McNeil diected Beltran to think of her as an evil character and that Chakotay was being seduced by the Devil.

    While the Borg costumes and makeup were from FC, the sets were not. Much to McNeil's displeasure ("It was the smallest set I've ever seen in my life."), the set itself was very small- only one hallway about 40 feet long in a semi circle because that was all the room they had.

    This episode features the third design of the Borg Cube (following the TNG and FC designs) and was the first to be created as a digital model instead of a physical model.

    Initially, Moore felt that First Contact should have been the last appearance of the Borg (and that the loss of the Queen meant the end of the Collective), while Braga supported what happened- bringing "dead" Borg back to life, which eventually led to the decision that the Collective survived FC and that there were other Borg in the Delta Quadrant.

    Braga was not interested in bringing the Cooperative back, but wasn't against finding out what happened to them down the road.

    VOY 318/319: Rise
    -Premise: Voyager defends a planet that is being bombarded by asteroids.


    -T2Q Comments: These two representatives seem rather cliche so far- the one wondering if the guy would do something important when he clearly said he had and the other being too overt in not caring/trying to obstruct proceedings.

    "Vulcans are notoriously difficult to impress. Mr Tuvok seldom acknowledges my brilliance."

    They kinda gloss over how they beam Tuvok and co aboard during the battle despite the critical shield situation- also, Tuvok seems to discover the device has tactical data about the vessel even though he already knew that aboard the magsled.

    The enemy ship has a bit of an Ori vibe to it. If they remodulated their shields, how did the weapons array strike succeed? The final "argument" between Tuvok and Neelix is actually rather amusing.

    So, an interesting mix of an episode- it manages to make Neelix not annoying- and the Tuvok/Neelix interplay is the core of the story here. I also like the maglev space elevator element. The rest of the story seems a bit sloppy- from the battle details I've already commented on, to the enemy motivation being shoehorned in as exposition at the end, to the traitor that was telegraphed from the first scene.

    I'll go with Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential. Still, it's like they were a small polish away from this being a very good episode, so it's kinda disspaointing in that regard. Also, a shame the Etanian Order wasn't elaborated upon- their alien design was at keast more interesting than the "good guys" in this episode.

    Trivia: Inspired by The Flight of the Phoenix. This was the second episode to air in what was known by some as the "trilogy of terror": three consecutive episodes often considered to be pretty bad, alongside "Darkling" and "Favorite Son". Well, I guess I'm the exception to the rule, or was more forgiving of the episode's shortcomings in lieu of it's strengths.

    DS9 516: Doctor Bashir, I Presume
    -Premise: Doctor Lewis Zimmerman arrives on Deep Space 9 to use Bashir as the model for his new Long-term Medical Hologram, but his plans could unveil a dark secret which Bashir has carried since childhood.


    -T2Q Comments: Dr Zimmerman (the programmer and appearance of the Doctor on Voyager) "returns" here. I like Zimmerman's differences in personality with the Doctor, even though there are many commonalities. Zimmerman is collected and cool and lacks the Doctor's somewhat constant state of exasperation.

    The EMH to LMH upgrade is a nice evolution in concept. As I've said before, I like it when it looks like even Starfleet technology can advance in believable ways. The looking-at-camera interviews seems to be another entry in the trend of different camera shots the series has been experimenting with (such as the played-out anecdotes from that Worf courtmartial trial episode with them speaking to camera).

    This whole augment Julian revelation is rather significant- I can't recall many characters ever really having such a thing revealed that technically changes the perception of the character both retroactively and going forward (well, except for replacing Harry Kim with a double (and, arguably, Picard being duplicated) for most of their series). Not sure if it was necessary or not, either- so I'm still unsure how I feel about it, though it's an interesting subject to explore here.

    The hologram communication tech is used again. The wrap up seems a bit too quick but it's acceptable. The Rom/Leeta subplot is juvenile, however.

    "You play from over here. I'll play from here. If that doesn't work, we'll try a BLINDFOLD."

    Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: The genetically enhanced Bashir idea was a last minute decision- it wasn't even thought of during the production of the previous episode. Alexander Siddig found out about it the day before shooting and was "royally" pissed off about it. The original ending of this story was changed at the request of Siddig so that the secret was known to everybody: Originally Zimmerman was causing deliberate problems with the LMH so it would not replace the EMH and the trade-off of this knowledge for his silence in the matter of Julian's genetic alterations.

    An outtake version of Zimmerman's final line (as he boards the transport and propositions the woman) was "Have you heard about my work on Star Trek Voyager?".

    Admiral Bennett provides an incorrect time estimate for the Eugenics Wars, an error that Morre admits was his fault for misremembering the distance between Wrath and DS9 and a line by Khan about "200 years".

    This is the last use of a holo-communicator until Star Trek Nemesis, unfortunately.

    VOY 319/318: Darkling
    -Premise: The Doctor alters his personality subroutines while Kes contemplates leaving Voyager for a man.


    -T2Q Comments: Though the rush to romance is subpar (something I suppose not entirely uncommon in Trek), Kess has some legimitely interesting questions for her character given her race's short lifespan. What is also interesting is that, knowing Kess eventually leaves the cast to make room for Seven, it hasn't dawned on me until now that it will result in the loss of the Tuvok/Kess mentor relationship, which is unfortunate. It was unique for Tuvok to have someone kind of on his level to guide. But I will ruminate on that more when the time comes, I suppose.

    Ugh, the Evil Doctor is not played with subtlety, is he? Though I do like the eyes. The holo-murders (and Super Mario 64 face stretching) are at least somewhat offputting.

    "Stay close- it's about to get interesting." I hope so.

    The beam-the-Doctor-is-Ok solution is really too easy of a reset. The resolution of Kess staying is also undercut by the ultimate departure of Kess later, which further renders this episode less relevant. The episode really doesn't work very well- though it's not unwatchable, it is Forgettable. It is fun to note how many versions of the same character Picardo has played between this and the previous chronological episode on DS9 (Zimmerman, EMH standard, the Doctor and Evil Doctor).

    Trivia: Inspired by the Jekyll and Hyde concept. The original version of the evil Doctor was more peverse, with his relationship with Kes being more "psychosexual and sadistic". There was a scene where Kes walks into the holodeck and finds the Doctor doing an experiment with Kesses everywhere, with one on the operating table as the Doctor makes a flip comment about "Just trying to get to know you better".

    The prosthic lower teeth Picardo wore while playing the evil Doctor was an appliance he had kept from, but had not worn since, his role in the horror film The Howling.

    This episode confirms that holodeck characters are "physically" hollow constructs. Transporting someone while falling will later be attempted again in 2009's Star Trek film. It is on this planet that the mission which infects Harry takes place on.

    Part of the "trilogy of terror" set of consecutive episodes considered to be particularly bad, alongside "Rise" and "Favorite Son". This one definitely earns that mantle.

    VOY 320: Favorite Son
    -Premise: Harry learns that he is actually a member of a Delta Quadrant race, but his people don't want him to leave his new home.


    -T2Q Comments: It's a strange coincidence to have this episode viewed almost back to back with the Julian DS9 episode- almost like they had do try to top that twist with their own "secret past" revelation. On those grounds alone, I'm assuming Kim's is not legit.

    I don't think I've ever been as bored by long exposition on genes as I have here. If this lady answers another question with the phrase "It's your Touresian Genes" I think I might have to punch somebody. [face_beatup]

    "Ah, Captain. When you raised some concerns regarding the Touresians, I began questioning their story about Ensign Kim's birth." Maybe you should have...oh, I don't know, ALREADY BEEN DOING THAT?

    During his escape, Kim rounds a corner and runs into... Lyta! Damn Vorlons! ;)

    Eh, a so-so attempt at a Sirens metaphor. Not quite as intriguing a story if you don't know about them being Sirens when you confront them though. The whole point of the Siren myth is confronting them knowing what they are.

    Why do I think this is an OK Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential? It's my Touresian genes!

    Trivia: Had the working title of "Heritage". The original storyline was going to follow through and keep Kim as an alien, with him keeping the spots, but this was abandoned for more sex and action by the requets of the studio big wigs. I can just see that exchange of notes: "We're trying to make Harry a more interesting character." "No, don't do that.". ;)

    The Nasan starships were reused models of the Romulan scout ship from TNG: The Defector.

    The third episode in the "trilogy of terror", alongside Rise and Darkling. It's place also earned.

    Up next: DS9 517: A Simple Investigation, DS9 518: Business as Usual & VOY 321: Before and After.

    Voyager Resources:

    Torpedoes: (Starting with 38, as of The Cloud)
    -1 fired in The Cloud (37 remain)
    -3 fired in Alliances (34 remain)
    -7 fired in Dreadnought (27 remain)
    -3 fired in Resolutions (24 remain)
    -3 fired + 1 "Dispersal Pattern Sierra" (5 torpedos according to Yesterday's Enterprise, but we'll assume a minimum of 2) in Basics, Part I (between 16-19 remain)
    -1 fired in Future's End, Part II (between 15-18 remain)
    -1 fired in Rise (between 14-17 remain)

    Shuttles: (Unknown Starting Value)
    -1 destroyed by Chakotay/Kazon in Initiations, unnamed.
    -1 destroyed by Kim in Non Sequitur, Drake.
    -1 destroyed by Paris in Partuition, unnamed.
    -1 dismantled by ex-Borg Raiders in Unity, unnamed.

    Crew: (152 People, as of The 37's)
    -Death Wish: Quinn/Q2 joins the crew (153 remain), then commits suicide. (152 remain)
    -Alliances: Kurt Bandera, dead. (151 remain)
    -Meld: Darwin, dead. (150 remain)
    -Investigations: Michael Jonas, dead. (149 remain)
    -Deadlock: Wildman baby born. (150 remain)
    -Innocence: Ensign Bennet, dead. (149 remain)
    -Basics, Part I: Bridge crewmember shot, presumed dead (148 remain)
    -Basics, Part II: Hogan, Suder & blue uniform crewmember, dead (145 remain)
    -Warlord: Martin, dead. (144 remain)
    -Unity: Ensign Marie Kaplan, dead. (143 remain)
  13. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 9
    Unity: Count me as one that was disappointed in this episode as I always thought that their intentions should have come from a 'noble' place (The road to hell and all that). Knowing Robert Duncan McNeil basically had it played as being seduced by a 'she - devil' kind of makes me PO'd.

    as for Doctor Bashir, I presume I actually liked the twist. I was never a fan of 'dimwit' or 'idiot' Bashir, even though he was far better by the time this episode rolled around, so there was at least finally a canonical reason for him being so arrogant with "Well I could have been valedictorian if it weren't for one question." and yet so skittish at the same time in those early seasons. Plus, IMO, it did make Julian a more interesting character.
    Last edited by Juliet316, Jul 7, 2013
  14. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I think it's just that, as you point out, it benefits the Julian from the earlier seasons but not so much the Julian he has become at this point in the series so it's kinda unnecessary (or, at best, a couple seasons too late).
  15. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 9
    I don't think it really changes who he's become, other than going forward there's a bit more openness and confidence to Julian than before (probably coming from there being no more secrets to hide). It enriches, in my mind at least, a character that was always somewhat bland and just hovering in the shadows prior to the reveal (probably owing to how relatively green Alexander Siddig was acting - wise when he started DS9, a point I think I either brought here or on the temp boards). Plus it answered a question that's always been floating in my head regarding any reprecussions on genetic manipulation post - Eugenics Wars, as I don't believe even Space Seed answered that question. It made sense to me that there would be laws against the kind of thing that lead to Khan, but it was nice to have it canonized in DS9.
  16. Darth_Omega Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    And here I was thinking In Purgatory's Shadow/By Shadow's Light would be the only two updates for the next 5 months. :p The two parter is excellent, it has lots of good elements and yes Bashir being a changeling was certainly a surprise to me when I first watched it oh so many years ago (back then I didn't had Memory Alpha to spoil things).
  17. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 9
    Same here. I didn't have a home computer until after I started college, and high school school was very strict about how Internet time was used.
  18. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    I had a big laugh when Julian's dad was revealed to be Babu from Seinfeld...probably because the episode where Jerry "misplaces" Babu's visa is one of my all-time favorites.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  19. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Ideally I'd have avoided spoilers from M-A altogether but the nature of this project requires at least some guidance towards what episodes might have elements relevant down the road.

    That and I quite enjoy reading the BTS info as a supplement to watching an episode. An experience I started with B5 & the Lurker's Guide and continued with Farscape and the Snurcher's Guide, among others.

    The downside is that M-A is a wiki, not an episode guide, so it sometimes provides too much information / doesn't take spoilers into account (ie: you'll have entries like "This starts the X plot line which continues in episodes Y & Z, culminating in J when Cardassia joins the Dominion." Or "Character X promises to do Y in this episode, he makes good on that promise in episode Z when character B is killed").

    So, in other words, you get "useful, useful, useful, WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP THERE?!" situations giving info that could have been provided in the entries for the payoff episodes instead of the setup episodes. ;)

    More to come- I have both of these seasons finished as far as viewing goes, but I'm just catching up on the posts I had mostly ready that I mentioned before. I'm working out a new system that cuts down on the time it takes to format the reviews a little bit, which helps.
    Last edited by The2ndQuest, Jul 8, 2013
  20. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Did you end up watching 2+ yet?

    DS9 517: A Simple Investigation
    -Premise: Odo falls for a mysterious woman who is targeted for murder.


    -T2Q Comments: These guys seem vaguely Jem'Hadar in appearance. Wouldn't the phaser being fired in a room set off an alert somewhere? The dataport enhancement comes across as something I'm surprised they haven't done before (though one might draw comparisons to the one-off Vicker/VCR guy on B5).

    isn't there a flaw with Odo's strategy? If the intent was to trick anyone who might be following them into thinking Odo and the girl were still inside the other room they beamed out of, shouldn't he have beamed back to that room to leave? If he's seen walking around the station without having exited the othe room, it would draw suspicions as to whether or not the girl was still in there as well.

    Julian's James Bond program returns. There are questions to be had about whats happening between Odo and this woman, but they're probably best left unasked. Maybe we shouldn't let the woman with the hacker implant alone near a terminal for the time being, no?

    It's funny how these guys hoods are not really all that far off from that of a Jedi or even a modern day hoodie.. yet they're just off enough to look ridiculous. Still, race of secretive people seems like a pretty significant concept to introduce- they're obviously not just a local intelligence operation if they're going after wide-spanning organizations like the Orions. They're effectively the Bothans of the Trek universe, as far as this implies at least. I have to assume we'll never hear from them again- yet another interesting concept abandoned.

    More somber of a conclusion than I expected. Some of the romanic tension was a little hammy or heavy handed but not so much as to derail the episode. Good Episode But Not Necessarily Essential.

    Trivia: Inspired by the film The Narrow Margin. The writers wished they had been able to do this story while Odo was still human. Bashir's holonovel was limited in screen time and Bond homages following the threats of legal action by MGM after Our Man Bashir.

    In-jokes listed on the manifest Arissa accesses include Jerry Maquire, Either Oneorother and Elbow Grease.

    Ira Steven Behr: "I think we do crappy romances. But in terms of romantic shows, this wasn't a bad one."

    DS9 518: Business as Usual
    -Premise: Quark's cousin Gaila offers him a job as a weapons dealer.


    -T2Q Comments: I don't remember the cousin very well but the weapons sale setup is interesting- holographic weaponry for testing and sales would technically be no worse than a video game. Judging by the Odo/Sisko/Kira scene, I'm not too far off.

    The nightmare sequence feels a little off to me, though it reminds me of the Shadows speaking to Delenn...

    Not much else to say about this oe- it's quite a good Quark episode, but nothing important. Good Episode, But Not Ncessarily Essential.

    Trivia: The original outline of this story was inspired by real world events of Russian scientists selling off plutonium removed from warheads. This outline involved Cardassia selling off it's weapons as it was falling apart at the time like the Soviets.

    Lawrence Tierney suffered a stroke shortly before shooting the episode, which gave him difficulty remembering his lines despite being able to deliver them perfectly.

    Armin sees this episode as calling back to Garak and Quark's conversation about root beer and the Federation and how Federation culture has started to affect Quark. When asked if he thought Quark would have gone through with the sale if fewer people were going to die, Bradley Thompson said " We just found one line of Quark's greed that he wouldn't cross. We haven't found the bottom line yet."

    Gaila's speech to Quark about ten million bars of latinum is adapted from the speech by Orson Welles in The Third Man. The reference to quadrotriticale is a callback to The Trouble with Tribbles.

    Alexander Siddig directed this episode under his real name of Siggig El-Fadil. Guest star Steven Berkoff previously appeared in A Clockwork Orange along with Siggig's uncle, Malcolm McDowell. The weapon referenced as a "Breen CRM-114" is a reference to the CRM-114 device found in the B-52 bombers in Dr Strangelove.

    VOY 321: Before and After
    -Premise: Kes finds herself in temporal flux with her consciousness moving back in time through various episodes in her life up until her birth.


    -T2Q Comments: The Doctor with hair- I'm going to take a wild guess and say Picardo had something to with that, ha...

    Old age makeup warning. Thats a boy? Or a girl playing a boy

    Doctor Van Gogh, heh.

    So in this alt future (presumably) we're seeing we have Kess married to Tom, though her aging has made it something of a March/December relationship, and Harry is married to their daughter (THAT has to be awkward) due to the accelerated Ocampa aging rates. Neelix is a security officer.

    Kess was, I think, around 3 or 4 years old in this season, in this future she's 9, so this is 5-6 years in the future (the equivalent of Season 8 or 9, if we assume it is roughly a year between seasons).

    First mention of The Year of Hell- death of Janeway and Torres. 24th century camera, heh.

    "How does it feel to be a grandfather?"
    "A lot better than it does to have you as a son-in-law."

    Doctor Mozart, heh.

    Maybe next time grab a breath mask on the way to the damaged, smoking, confined space? Kess confirms a 6 year timejump to present day.

    Janeway says she's never come across anything like this in her years in Starfleet- but wouldn't Picard's anti-time All Good Things experience qualify? I mean, if you're going to make a definitive statement on an event, you might want to make sure it at least passes the test with one of the most notable/famous episodes of the franchise.

    Kess warns Janeway about the Krenim encounter 6 months from now. Funny that Janeway immediately says "tell me more" without even the slightly hesitation of concerns over contaminating the timeline or breaking the Temporal Prime Directive.

    For a moment I actually thought they were going to end the episode on a rather dark Butterfly Effect Director's Cut-esque ending, but they come back from that territory and even end on a somewhat goofy note out of place from the rest of the episode just to try to deliver a message.

    Since I know The Year of Hell will be a significant episode in the futiure (...literally), combined with the time travel element and overall good quality, I'm going to go with Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: The first of 13 VOY episodes directed by Allan Kroeker. The novel Places of Exile has the Borg/Species-8472 War happening in this alternate timeline as it eventually does in the prime timeline, but results in half the Collective being destroyed and Voyager staying out of range of the conflict and never encountering Seven of Nine.

    Up next: DS9 519: Ties of Blood and Water, DS9 520: Ferengi Love Songs & VOY 322: Real Life.

    Time Travel Log:

    -TNG: All Good Things... (alternate 3.5 Billion Years Ago; Jean Luc-Picard & Q; from alternate-2370)
    -TOS: All Our Yesterdays (2700 BC, Sarpedion Ice Age; NCC-1701 crew; from 2268)
    -TOS: All Our Yesterdays (Undefined 17th Century-esque Sarpeidon; NCC-1701 crew; from 2268)
    -TNG: Time's Arrow, part I (1893; NCC-1701-D crew; from 2368)
    -TOS: The City on the Edge of Forever (1930: NCC-1701 crew; from 2267)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Part II (1930; NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2371)
    -DS9: Little Green Men (1947; Quark's Treasure crew; from 2372)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Part II (1967; NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2371)
    -VOY: Future's End, Part I (1967; Aeon; from 2373)
    -TOS: Assignment Earth (1968: NCC-1701; from 2268)
    -TOS: Tommorow is Yesterday (1969: NCC-1701; from 2267)
    -ST4: The Voyage Home (1986: The Bounty crew, formerly of NCC-1701; from 2286)
    -VOY: Future's End, Part I (1996; NCC-74656; from 2372)
    -VOY: Future's End, Part II (1996; Aeon; from 29th Century)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Part I (2024; NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2371)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Part II (2024; NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2371)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Part II (2048; NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2371)
    -ST8: First Contact (2063; NCC-1701-E & Borg Sphere; from 2373)
    -TOS: The Tholian Web (2154 (Mirror Universe): NCC-1764 Defiant; from 2268)
    -TOS: The Naked Time (2266: NCC-1701 goes back in time 3 days; from 2266)
    -DS9: Trials and Tribble-ations (2268: NX-74205 Defiant crew; from 2373)
    -TNG: All Good Things... (alternate 2364; Jean Luc-Picard; from alternate-2370)
    -TNG: Time Squared (2365: Picard goes 6 hours into the past; from 2365)
    -TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise (2366 (Standard & FKW Universes); NCC-1701-C goes forward through a temporal rift; from 2344)
    -TNG: Captain's Holiday (2366; Vorgons; from 27th Century, approx. 2666)
    -TNG: Future Imperfect (False-2383; Will Riker. NCC-1701-D; from 2367)
    -TNG: A Matter of Time (2368; Berlinghoff Rasmussen; from 22nd Century, using 26th Century technology)
    -TNG: Cause and Effect (2368; NCC-1701-D ends up 17 days in the future after timeloop; from 2368)
    -TNG: Time's Arrow, part II (2368; Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens; from 1893)
    -TNG: Firstborn (2370; Alexander; from 2410)
    -TNG: All Good Things... (2370; Jean Luc-Picard from alternate-2370)
    -VOY: Time and Again (2371; NCC-74656 crew go back in time 1 day; from alternate-2371)
    -DS9: Visionary (2371; Miles flashes forward in time between 3.5 & 5 hours six times; from 2371)
    -VOY: Before and After (2369; Kess (mentally) from alternate 2370)
    -VOY: Before and After (alternate 2370; Kess (mentally) from alternate 2371)
    -VOY: Before and After (alternate 2371; Kess (mentally) from 2373)

    -VOY: Eye of the Needle (2371; data and Romulan; from 2351)
    -ST7: Generations (2371; Picard and Kirk through the Nexus from 2371 & 2293)
    -VOY: Future's End, Part I (2373; Aeon; from Alternate 29th Century)
    -VOY: Before and After (2373; Kess (mentally) from alternate 2374)
    -VOY: Before and After (alternate 2374; Kess (mentally) from alternate 2378)
    -VOY: Before and After (alternate 2378; Kess (mentally) from alternate 2379)

    -TNG: All Good Things... (alternate 2395; Jean Luc-Picard & Q; from alternate-2370)

    Alternate Universe Log:

    -TOS: The Alternative Factor (Anti-Matter Universe)
    -TOS: Mirror, Mirror (Mirror Universe)
    -TOS: The Tholian Web (Mirror Universe & "Solo-Kirk" Universe)
    -TNG: We'll Always Have Paris (Simultaneous Continuum universes, "Manheim Dimension")
    -TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise (Federation-Klingon War universe)
    -TNG: Remember Me (Beverly Crusher-created Warp Bubble Reality)
    -TNG: Cause and Effect (failed timeloop occurances)
    -TNG: Timescape (aliens from alternate timeline, alternate outcome of Enterise's destruction)
    -TNG: Parallels ("Original" universe, "Surprise Party w/Chocolate Cake" universe, "Surprise Party w/Yellow Cake" universe, "9th place Concussion" universe, "Blue Dress/Moved Battle Painting" universe, "Blue Uniform/Moved Starship Painting"; "Married w/no kids" universe, "First Officer Worf/Married with Children" universe; "Borg-Controlled" universe, "Altered Original" universe)
    -DS9: Crossover (Mirror Universe)
    -TNG: All Good Things... (alternate 3.5 Billion Years Ago, alternate 2364, alternate-2370 & alternate 2395)
    -DS9: Past Tense, Parts I & II (Alternate Federationless 2371)
    -DS9: Visionary (Alternate 2371 outcomes including the destruction of DS9; resulting from Miles' timeflashes)
    -DS9: Through the Looking Glass (Mirror Universe)
    -VOY: Emanations (Vhnori dimension)
    -ST7: Generations (alternate "Destructon of Veridian III" timeline)
    -VOY: Non Sequitur (alternate Kim Earth)
    -DS9: The Visitor (alternate death-of-Sisko timeline)
    -DS9: Shattered Mirror (Mirror Universe)
    -VOY: Future's End, Part I (Alternate 29th Century)
    -VOY: Before and After (Alternate 2369, 2370, 2371, 2374, 2378 & 2379)
  21. TiniTinyTony Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2003
    star 6

    Star Trek: The Motion Picture
    Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
    Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
    Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
    Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
    Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
    Star Trek Generations
    Star Trek: First Contact
    Star Trek: Insurrection
    Star Trek: Nemesis <-- only one I still need to watch
    Star Trek
    Star Trek Into Darkness
  22. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 9
    No, no, you don't need to watch Nemesis. Really, you don't.
    Draconarius likes this.
  23. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    No do see it, but go in with tempered expectations- you may enjoy large portions of it. Especially if you've already subjected yourself to the painful stain that is Insurrection.

    What were your thoughts on 2-9? A bit of an improvement over 1 (well, not 5 or 9), no?
    Last edited by The2ndQuest, Jul 9, 2013
  24. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2013
    star 2
    I barely remeber Business as Usual, but enjoyed it tremenduosly.
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    It had a nice organized crime angle to things you don't get too often in Trek. And when you do too often it is more saying that showing it.