Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Han Burgundy, Jul 4, 2013.
Everything you type is pure genius.
Well, thank you!!!
And here's me, even allowing for the "genius" part, thinking all this time that I was very impure.
No, it's not genius. It's just ramblings.
Nice if other people take something from those ramblings, though. Again, thanks.
I will agree that she weakened on Mustafar, and perhaps from a certain point of view she weakened on Geonosis. But she was very far from giving up on Geonosis. She even seemed like a totally different character.
It's possible, but if it was, I don't think they got that idea across very well.
And this is why I like you. You've got all that, and even if I don't always agree with what you're saying, your posts are a pleasure to read.
Ah, but that's just it. We're unsure what Padme felt, and why she died. It seemed to make no sense. They literally gave no explanation.
Losing the will to live is really no explanation when it happens only days(?) after her tragedy occurred.
Ha! Earthworm Jim! Love it. From our standpoint as real people from a real world, those things can be considered melodramatic. From an inuniverse character standpoint, where star bases, and aliens and battleships are a regular thing, I'm sure Obi Wan was sitting there befuddled, looking at Padme and thinking, "That's a really melodramatic thing to do. Ya don't see me dying over Anakin, and I spent the last 13 years with the guy!" >.< But fair enough. Even in the PT, Padme was never all that melodramatic in her actions until ROTS.
I actually like the midi idea, and it may even be so. If it is so, it would baffle me why GL didn't see the need to make sure the audience was aware of that. Not only would the casual moviegoer not pick up on it, but most Star Wars fans would not either. It would take a true desire to come up with a valid reason as to why she died when even GL felt we didn't really need to know. You could be right, and it could be the midis, but how hard would that have been to illustrate clearly, so that there would be no doubts?
On the subject of the contradiction (or "perceived" contradiction, depending upon your POV ) that Padme's death creates with Leia's "memories" of her mother in ROTJ: does anyone know if GL has ever directly addressed this issue, and, if so, what he has said about it? (Maybe he addresses it on his audio commentary for this scene on the DVD/Blu-ray? I've never gotten around to listening to all his commentaries...). Maybe Carbon1985 or Captain Tom Coughlin knows? Thanks!
I would say, though, that there is a difference between one's capacity to deal with professional and personal crises. Additionally, you have to consider the role that Padmé plays in each situation and what her options are. In terms of the Trade Federation, her adversary is a clear invasive force. Whereas, by the end of ROTS, she has come to realize that she helped to put a dictator in power and the Senate to which she has dedicated her life is cheering him on. I'm not claiming it works simply because I like Star Wars, but I think it works when you consider Padmé's position in relation to these events. In both TPM and AOTC, she has some method of recourse against a known and clear foe. Whereas by ROTS, she's been stripped of her power as a Senator and it is her colleagues that are bringing down everything she's worked for (along with her husband). By ROTS, also, Padmé is diminished in a way she simply wasn't in TPM and AOTC -- all of her political power is gone.
I think of Padmé's death in a similar manner to Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to burn alive -- from what we've seen of the character, it isn't necessarily what we would predict or expect. Given the circumstances, though, I think both work.
Images and feelings alone aren't unique to memories -- dreams, for example, contain images and feelings. For me, what distinguishes memories is that there's a sense of time attached to them. I can order my memories approximately. With dreams this is more difficult to do because there isn't always a frame of reference. But all I wanted to indicate is that Leia's memories of her mother aren't necessarily concrete.
I can remember a lot of things from my earliest memory (about age four) -- the smell of the room I was in, the people I was with, the emotions I felt, etc.[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from here, but I'm not certain your explanation for it completely summarizes Padme's situation between the films.
There maybe some differences in how one might deal with things personally compared to professionally, but I think in Padme's case her professional crisis also affects her on personal levels. In TPM she was to be processed, and probably killed. She has to start taking it personally because they are shooting at her, and it becomes more than just a job then. In AOTC she acted on a strictly personal level when she went to Geonosis to save Obi Wan. It was a seemingly unnecessary, and extremely dangerous, thing to do. What could two people do against a planet of hostiles?
In AOTC and TPM her options for fighting back were not so obvious as I think it has often been made out to be. Through force of will, she created opportunities to fight by making her own rules. (Windu's orders to Anakin are to stay on Tatooine. Against Palpatine's advice she returns to Naboo to form alliances.) The difference between AOTC, TPM, and ROTS is Padme didn't stay around to come up with a way to deal with the situation in ROTS. Instead of suddenly realizing there were ways of dealing with that situation as she had others, she appeared to have just given up.
All that said, I will agree that there are certain things that are unique to her experience in ROTS. This time, her "friends" are turning against her. It's sad, but is it so sad that such a heroic individual would decide to die rather than deal with it? There is still hope at the end of ROTS, and different roads to setting things straight are availlable to someone who has proven as ingenuitive and brave as Padme has previously been. Everyone who was still on her side appears to see that, only the Padme who makes her own rules, and faces adversity head on is nowhere to be found. I don't see such a huge difference from one tragic event to another. They were all really, really, bad, to the point where I have to wonder if I would have what it takes to deal with any of them were I in her situation. But by the fact that she sticks around to deal with one, she has made herself into a certain type of character.
An interesting thing I read recently, here, but can't prove at the moment, is that before ROTS, the novelization of ROTJ had Luke and Leia at 4 years old when their mother died. Can anyone confirm this? I can remember things from around that time, images, smells among them, even people saying certain things. I can't remember anything from when I was a new born.
Leia's memories aren't concrete in the sense that they didn't need to be pinned down to a time and place, perhaps, but they are specific. Beautiful, and sad. (At the moment I can't remember if she described anything else.) But they weren't things that Leia was making up either. I would say her memories would be totally untrue if Padme happened to be in anyway ugly and happy. There are so many things that Leia could have described if her memories were untrustworthy.
I'm probably not the one to ask, there are other people here who probably know more about Lucas's various statements than I do. I'm more interested in what the movies say than what he says after the fact. I think he tends to contradict himself, and tends to say whatever he thinks at the time, so I don't pay a lot of attention to it.
I too wouldn't say that it's a contradiction that Leia remembers something of her mother just before her death, as Pietshat points out, they weren't memories as such as they were feelings. I liken the "images" to be her own mind to help paint a picture of these feelings. So that I have no problem with,
the problem I have already mentioned is "medically she is perfectly healthy" and as someone pointed out, no one is perfectly healthy anyway, so from a medical droid was a stupid thing to say in itself..
the other is giving up on her new healthy new born twins. I'm not one to put comedy in what is supposed to be a tragic ending of the film, but what would have been passable for me at least is something like this
medical droid: your twins are unhealthy I don't expect them to live passed a day
Padme: *loses will to live*
Medical droid: oh sorry, memory bank fault, that was the patient last week, your twins are going to be fine
Obi-Wan: she's dead,
Medical droid: sooner or later I'm going to be deactivated with these screw ups
obviously I'm not being serious with such an ending, but I have to say from my point of view, the ending we got is just as bad as the above.
An infant, only minutes old no less. would not be able to make the determination that her mother is sad or beautiful.
Do you remember the doctor that assisted in your birth? The color of his eyes? Of course not, your brain was not yet capable of forming those memories. Your eyes not yet capable of distinguishing those features.
The only thing left is the tired old " it was the force" catch all.
As I was reading through this thread I couldn't help but think that if anyone was entitled to lose the will to live it was Luke.
TO START WITH
Lived his first 20 years not knowing his parents ... as a moisture farmer's assistant.
The family he did have was murdered and he witnessed their charred corpses lying on the ground.
Finds a mentor who can finally fill the role as father figure ... but then gets killed.
Meets a cute princess and falls in love with her.
His nemesis turns out to be his father, who proceeds to chop his hand off.
His mentor turns out to have lied to him about the thing that had become the main motivation in his life - confronting his nemesis and avenging the murder of his father
The girls he loves turns out to be his sister.
His father turns back to the light ... but then immediately dies.
Really Padme. Your old man's a Sith and you're not the Queen anymore?!
Edit: Oh yeah, and he meets another mentor and he dies too.
Do you remember the doctor that assisted in your birth? The color of his eyes? Of course not, your brain was not yet capable of forming those memories. Your eyes not yet capable of distinguishing those features
but I don't think I have the potential to wave things around with my hands
don't have a connection with my siblings when they are in trouble hanging in the clouds or have a father that was conceived by midichlorians,
so I'm at a disadvantage.
Neither Leia or Padme showed much in the way of force connection that I can recall. I'm hoping she didn't know Luke was her bro when she snogged him in TESB in any case.
And yet, Luke does not ask her about visions or supernatural ESP type connections, he asks her a very simple and straightfoward question about her memories of her mother, to harken back to her childhood and think of her family. And that is exactly what she does when she gives him a very direct answer about her memories, why should we pretend like it's something else?
I actually did have a connection like this to people I'm related to a few times. It's weird. Of course, it could be coincidence, cause I generally don't believe in that type of thing, but I will always wonder.... If I'm the chosen one
Darth Duckie: I was talking about near the end of ESB, when she hears Luke calling for her, I agree though that the incestuous kiss was more than weird though.
Captain Tom: and she replies "images really, feelings" not "yup I remember the time we went to Droid-Mart to pick up a spare part for our cooking droid, and she fell down dead on the spot" as I already put, I don't think she remembered any sort of memory, but a force connection of feelings, and later put her feelings into thoughts because she didn't know what these "feelings" were, as they probably weren't normal.
She might have imagined that her mother was Blonde haired and blue eye for all the audience knows, creating false memories out of a connection from a possible force sensitive isn't so much a plot hole for me,
but each his own.
Yeah, fair point about Bespin Sistros. I always thought that was more Luke doing the connecting. I'm sure she had latent sensitivity though.
That kiss though. Geez that's awkward. No matter how many times I see it...
Images and feelings would be a pretty accurate way to describe memories of early childhood for most. I mean, of the real variety. Not the kind magic babies form. As I said, it really just ends up in the realm of the "force" catch all.
And of course there is another aspect to this, Luke asks the question for reason. He is clearly aware that Leia had spent time with her mother in order to form memories. I imagine he knows what happened to her mother, at least in the original version of this story before Lucas decided to ignore it.
I think it's pretty clear that Leia was raised by her mother until her death at a time when Leia was still very young. Lucas just decided not to honor the established story. It is what it is.
Darth Duckie: I remember discussing the kiss with someone in a social thread who didn't see a problem with it at all, and that this person thought there was nothing wrong with the way she kissed her brother, needless to say, the conversation abruptly ended..
Captain Tom: well it was an odd question to ask her in all honesty out of the blue, she probably didn't want to go into the ins and outs of her feelings and memories and in all honesty, if my theory is correct, I'd have answered Luke in the same manner,
Trust me I'm not one who likes "the force did it" to explain away plot points, I just don't see a three word response to a question a plot hole.
She certainly didn't seem like someone who didn't want to get into it, she offered the answer that her mother was sad. She seemed very open about this. She was not dodging the question.
LOL. Yeah, a peck to make the point I could go with but...
Captain Tom: well she probably wasn't dodging the question, and she probably would have gone into more detail had the conversation not gone the way it did. My theory is probably wrong, I don't claim to be the absolute authority on Lo-pan...I mean uhh Star Wars but it's good enough as an explanation for me to not let it affect my enjoyment of the film, unlike say the uncomfortable ESB kiss.
I'm actually the opposite, the kiss doesn't bother me that much. Because I think that she has a generally platonic relationship with Luke, and that her feelings for him may have been fraternal right from the start, even if she didn't know it to be literally true.
I think when you contrast it with her relationship with Solo all throughout Empire her relationship with Luke is pretty much fraternal.
And once the revelation is made to her that he literally is her brother, it makes sense to her.
Dodging the question is one thing, but just before Luke asked her about her mother, she had asked a potentially personal question of him, and she was still awaiting the answer.
If she was expecting him not to dodge as well, I'm sure she would not wish to diminish his trust in her by dodging one of his questions. Just imagine that scene if they spent
it dodging each other instead of giving reliable answers?
I wonder if it'll be tinkered with one day and Leia will say something more in line with ROTS, like...
"Actually Luke, I hear straight after we were born she lost the will to live, so I don't have too much to go on memories-wise."
Captain Tom: I think it would have been better that after ROTJ was filmed, the scene with the kiss should have been edited to make it not as long as it was, I see what you're saying though
AS: I already said that they probably weren't dodging the question, conversations do jump around one thing to the other, even if you had a point to make, if you see it as a plot hole, fair play to ya, it's your right, and you are probably right, Lucas probably had it in mind she survived ROTS, but I'm just saying I've made a theory on what she meant, so it doesn't bother me, this isn't "I'm more intelligent than you are because I can pick out plot holes" you know