PT To everyone who thinks no respectable author would have a character "die of a broken heart":

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Han Burgundy, Jul 4, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Just to clarify, but my distinction between professional and personal had more to do with relationships. There are doctors, for example, who are excellent professionals -- who can handle any emergency or stressful situation and display great empathy with patients, but absolutely fail to connect or deal with family issues on any level. Being able to handle challenges in your line of work does not automatically confer competency in dealing with loved ones.

    I think, also, that the situation in ROTS differs in that Padmé has no external enemy to focus on. The people who have destroyed everything she worked for are near and rather dear to her -- her husband Anakin, her former Senator Palpatine, and her colleagues in the Senate. And Padmé herself played right into their hands in many cases. In TPM, her focus was on combating the Trade Federation while in AOTC, it was the Separatists. She may not always have followed orders, but she had a clear delineation of who she was fighting and what she was fighting.

    I don't think that Padmé's death stems from a refusal to deal with the situation. I think it stems from a deep sense of powerlessness and of a desire to protect those she loves in what manner she can (even if that means protecting them from themselves -- as in Anakin's case).

    I'm not suggesting that Leia's memories are natural. Of course, in our world, it's impossible to remember anything that far back. But Star Wars is a fantastical setting where such a thing is not impossible (Harry Potter is another example I brought up earlier). The films explicitly state that through the Force we can see old friends long gone. I don't believe that Leia is making up her memories, but I do think the reason she can remember is because of her Force potential and her empathy which is demonstrated repeatedly in her interactions with Luke.
    minnishe likes this.
  2. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Oh I know. I should have been more clear that I actually did want you guys to imagine them dodging each others questions in that scene. It's quite a comical thing those two squabbling with each other like actual brother and sister in that moment. I have no illusions that I'm smarter than any of you guys. Star Wars fans are MY PEEPS! I've had a lot of laughs in this thread. It's somewhat serious, but also fun at the the same time. I'm enjoying it that the ideas keep coming in on both sides.
    Pensivia likes this.
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I just find it a little sad that, in light of the PT, Leia's supposed memories come off as phony.

    George should just do another Special Edition and remove the discussion about their mother from ROTJ. Should probably go ahead and remove "somehow I've always known" while he's at it.
  4. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I understand about her having to deal with matters of relationships in ROTS, and to some extent I addressed that. I think it's a noteworthy distinction to a point. Padme certainly had issues dealing with her personal life, and she likely didn't want to see Anakin as an enemy. And maybe she was even in a state of denial. But are those any reason for any sane person to decide to die? As you say, it could have been to protect her children. But did it protect them, and how could she be certain that it would? Death would be a huge leap to make for absolutely no guarantee at all. I could see your point if she wasn't leaving them in the hands of jedi, who were targeted for termination. Whatever her reasons for dying, it meant that she would not be around to make certain that her children were well taken care of, in which case she quite possibly abandoned them for nothing. That part is hard for me to swallow. were it a sure thing that her death would protect them, I would lend some credit to it. After all, Obi Wan died heroically, in order to protect Luke. But he made certain he would still be around to guide Luke afterward.

    Fair enough. I will admit to overlooking the force in all this, probably because ROTJ did not establish it that way. If indeed she was supposed to be 4 years old at her mother's death back when ROTJ was filmed then her memories would have been a non-issue. But where the movies are concerned, I'm of a mind that previous material has to bow to newly established material, even if I don't like it :) So long as it makes some kind of sense, I can accept it.
  5. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I do note that the character of Obi-Wan is altered from Star Wars because of Vader becoming Luke's father. I don't think there is (or, rather, I cannot see) a coherent whole in the 'Star Wars saga'; in fact I see it as a number of vignettes, a series of alternate universes based around a set of characters - around which any number of different outcomes can be perceived.

    As a saga it does not, imo, work. there are too many alterations and shifts within the project of making them that any sense of coherence is lost. That is how I deal with the changes. Padmé is simply not the same character in ROTS that she was in AOTC or TPM - I'm not convinced she is the same 'Mother' that Leia is referencing in ROTJ (but then, in my version of this disjointed Star Wars universe, Luke and Leia weren't related in Star Wars or TESB).

    The Padmé that dies of a broken heart in ROTS, and who clings her way through ROTS is a cipher - stripped of her previous Padmé-ness - the damsel in distress for whom Anakin falls. That is her role in that story That, and to deliver up two twins.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Jul 10, 2013
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think there is a lot of truth to that.
  7. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Hey man, I was just looking for a response to have a fun debate, you didn't need to write a book! ;):p

    We'll have to agree to disagree and I think we accomplished that in a respectful way (unlike most people on internet boards who will just insult each other back and forth). I can see that you don't really have a problem with contradictions in the story while I do. Its not the end of the world, as I still enjoy all 6 movies when it is all said and done. I have no problem with Lucas throwing a curve ball at the fans with each new movie, because I agree it makes it interesting. But you have to respect what was said on screen before, or it looks like you are disrespecting the previous material for the sake of the current material.



    Or remove their kiss in ESB! [face_laugh]
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Jul 10, 2013
    DarthDuckie and ConnorLovesPadme like this.
  8. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    Don't forget that his best friend died guarding his back, murdered by his father.
    DarthDuckie likes this.
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    The final stretch of ROTS shows quite a change in Padme's character. Post-Order 66, her reliance on Anakin seems to grow exponentially. Maybe that gestaltic event sapped her energy. We do see her reacting quite deeply to it.

    Fair enough. The aggressive montage approach that Lucas uses in that part of ROTS conveys it quite well, to me; though, in my case, it might have still taken me two or three viewings to adapt.

    Why, thank you. It's fun to spin different ideas. The scale and sweep of the saga makes it easy; in my case, anyway.

    Maybe just hours, in point of fact. I think it's a reasonable explanation in light of the final events leading up to that scene. Moreover, unlike other Force choke victims, Padme lapses into an extended unconscious. But I guess Obi-Wan was also knocked out for a bit on the Invisible Hand. If you like, though, Obi-Wan was knocked out when Dooku flung him into the railing; so, what happens to Padme is that bit more extreme. Her wooziness could be part of what saps her.

    Respect for EWJ! :cool: Anakin and Padme's star-spanning romance was a wee bit deeper, arguably, than Anakin and Obi-Wan's fraternal bond. Plus, where Obi-Wan had decades of Jedi training to fall back on (somewhat), Padme is a young woman who went through a different training regime, which, again, arguably, didn't really prepare her for these more harmful interpersonal experiences. And Padme must have really thought she somehow misled Anakin and even fed him to Obi-Wan, the big, bad Jedi lion; thus, huge, unquenchable self-blame.

    It's sort of implied, for a second time, in ROTS itself: "He could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life." Palpatine has a nasty habit of leaving out the corollary. If the Force can have that sort of effect, perhaps it can also influence the midis to take life -- quite conceivably, in some grander scheme to, again, create it (i.e., Anakin/Vader sucks at Padme's soul through the Force)?

    Anakin never really knew his own power; what effect he had on Padme; and where his lack of control might take him. In AOTC, if you watch carefully, you might see Padme becoming hypnotized -- half-dead -- when Anakin draws an emphatic breath at the lake retreat, while his back is turned, contemplating what to do with regard to his mother. For a brief span of the film, he pulled her into his existential frame; and it was only the slim chance of still preventing a war (rescuing Obi-Wan) that snapped her out of it.

    Palpatine seems to play on this, feeling Anakin's capacity for the extraordinary, and feeding him sophistry: comforting words that, in and of themselves, aren't false, but are dangerously incomplete and fatally misleading. The boy will ruin what he sets out to protect, allowing Palpatine to complete his power grab; and the rest is collateral damage.
    minnishe likes this.
  10. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    That's your opinion. And it's really the only logical explanation, which makes sense within the world of Star Wars.
    Sarge likes this.
  11. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The problem is that many people refuse to accept the idea of a person - especially a woman - dying of a broken heart. Why? I don't know. It has been a valid literary device for centuries. When I first saw ROTS, I understood why Padme had died. By the time she was declaring that Anakin still had good in him, it was too late for her. But no one wants to accept this.


    That happened before Padme learned that Anakin had become a Sith, had killed children at the Jedi Temple, and had been attacked by him on Mustafar.
    kainee likes this.
  12. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    2 points I want to share here. The 1st is about plot holes; the 2nd is about Leia remembering Padme.

    I'm not criticizing people for discussing plot holes. Doing so is as legitimate as discussing cinematography, actors' performances, music, etc. The point I want to make is that SW is generally pretty good in the plot department. Most single films, films that have been well-received, have huge plot holes.

    "Skyfall" is jammed full of them, including a pointless 20-minute sequence in which the bad guy allows himself to be captured apparently just so that he can have one face-to-face conversation with M to make her feel guilty before following an escape plan that requires a breath-taking number of coincidences so that he can try to kill her a little bit later. "The Dark Knight Rises," which is in the top 50 on imdb, has some glaring ones, like why the heck doesn't Bane just blow up Gotham immediately instead of waiting 5 months?

    Then, there are the countless plot holes in the 2009 Star Trek film: why does Nero want to kill Spock when Spock was the only guy actually trying to prevent Romulus's star from going super nova? Why doesn't Nero, who's been waiting back in time for 30 years for old Spock to arrive, actually go to warn Romulus that uh... "Your sun is going to blow up so you better evacuate the planet," thus enabling his people to actually survive this terrible future event that he's so angry about? Why does he beam old Spock down to Vulcan's moon, when old Spock has a better view of Vulcan getting destroyed on Nero's ship and Nero could have the added pleasure of laughing at him as it happens? And why does Kirk just happen to get beamed down almost right next to old Spock who are both just a few minutes' walk from Scotty who just happens to be the only person in the universe able to beam them onto the Enterprise? And I'm just warming up here.

    Then, let's not forget "Prometheus," which I believe is actually just one 2-hour super humongous plot hole with nifty special effects.

    So, anyway, the way I look at it, the fact that Leia remembers her mother in ROTJ, three films after ROTS, is small potatoes compared to the huge plot holes in recent films, and these are all plot holes contained within single films, not 2 trilogies of films staged 15 year apart. And remember, we know these films backwards and forwards. If we knew most films so well, plot holes would start popping us around us everywhere. Again, not saying plot holes shouldn't be discussed or that Leia's memories aren't a plot hole. My intention is merely to put in proper perspective.

    Now, here's my little addition of a scientific nature to the Leia-remembering-Padme discussion.

    First, here's a really esoteric bit of knowledge that I think GL and everyone else can be forgiven for not knowing. A newborn infant neurologically cannot process any visual information. The processing of visual information must be learned. In fact, if an infant is kept in totally darkness during the early years of his life, he won't ever learn to see once he is exposed to light. However, if GL didn't consider this when making ROTS, I think this can be overlooked as mostly only neurologists and nerdlings like me are aware of this phenomenon.

    Second, a dominant theory among neuroligists is that very young children can remember things long before most people think they can. Most parents have probably noticed this. If a parent talks to a 2-year-old that 2-year-old can remember stuff from 3 months or 6 months back, sometimes even further. What's strange is that as we get older most of us can't remember much of anything before the age of 3 to 4. This dominant theory postulates that what happens is that the way we remember things changes when we are around 3 to 4 years old. At that point, we switch from visual memories to a mostly verbal understanding of the world as we really master language. During this transition, we lose most of our memories from young age as that voice we hear in our heads when we're thinking replaces our visual way of processing information. And, still, there are some people who claim to remember things from very young ages, and while it can't be verified that these memories are legit, some neurologists do concede that people who retain very good visual memories might retain memories from a very young age, and the type they'd remember would be images and feelings, exactly the type Leia remembers.

    So, if you ignore the infant needing to learn to process visual information issue, it's not as if it's totally beyond the realm of possiblity that Leia might be one these rare exceptions, especially considering she is Force-sensititive, which can heighten both physical and mental abilities -- like improved reflexes, predicting future events, etc.

    Again, I'm not at all suggesting this is what GL wants us to believe, and I don't really look at it this way myself, but it's something I thought I'd share all the same, somewhat just because I thought it was interesting.

    And BTW, if the question is asked why Luke doesn't remember her as well, maybe the answer is he didn't look at her!
    kainee, Circular_Logic and FRAGWAGON like this.
  13. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    Also, few films are subjected to the level of scrutiny that these ones are.
    kainee, minnishe and SithStarSlayer like this.
  14. Vannagainn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2013
    yeah that was odd [face_plain]
  15. Vannagainn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2013
    Well in my opinion:

    The death was plausible;
    Padme had just been force-choked, then gave birth to twins, and all this shortly after having a very dramatic, sudden and shocking break-up. Women die in child birth all the time, and stress never helps. It was possible, just a directorial decision not highly regarded by the viewer community.
    And besides, Natalie Portman is good at these death in childbirth and child death scenes. I think she had like 5 roles like this over her career.
  16. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    I respectfully disagree, as the internet just brings out more of this type of conversation then ever before with movie series. I am not a big XMen fan (I enjoy the movies, but I am not a diehard like SW), but those fans went crazy regarding XMen Last Stand on how much they despised it and how much a disappoint it was compared to the previous two, and there were so plot points they argued that I don't want to talk about here for spoiler reasons. The same with the 3rd Spiderman movie that came out in 2007, as people were vicious on the internet towards compared to the previous two movies which they loved. The internet is great sometimes because there are so many things you can do on it that wasn't possible 15-20 years ago, but there is also a bad side because it brings out EVERY person who can express any opinion they want.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I've never seen an X-Men movie but I can't even tell you how much I've read as far as how bad the third one was and how the franchise took a nose-dive.

    Spider-Man: My son and I both loved the first two Tobey Macguire films; I downloaded the third one and yeah, nose dive. My son looked at me about a third of the way through it and said, "Mom, are you going to be mad if I turn this off? It's bad."

    As far as the plot hole with Leia's memory, I can accept an infant having "images and feelings" through the Force, but Luke should also have them, especially since Padme touched his head and did not touch Leia at all.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    You're welcome. It is fun to spin the brilliant new ideas. I like all six films, (although I would have written them totally different given the chance.... :D) and I actually want someone to say the magic words that seamlessly draw them all together, where they all make sense according to what we see on screen. Not sure if it will ever happen, but if it does, I'm sure it will happen here, on this forum.

    I know a lot of the scenes, in which Padme is a central character, were cut from the film. There are several scenes with the forming of the rebel alliance, and even one where she is in meeting with Anakin and Palpatine. While these scenes would have little to do with Padme's state of mind after Order 66, I can see that they would definitely shed some light on Padme's character in ROTS. I realize she was pregnant the whole movie, but she seemed like sort of like a wild card GL would pull out for a limited amount of time, and then stuff back into his deck. There isn't very much Padme in ROTS despite the importance of her character, so when twisty turny stuff happens with her or because of her, it always seems a bit forced, and she ends up raising more questions than the movie seems to want to answer. Her reactions in that movie are definitely strange, and maybe it is as you posted above. I would certainly like to know. Ya know? :D

    In my case it might take a billion ;) If he actually did as you say, then it's a very subtle stroke that most people won't catch, ever. There is some artistic quality in doing things that way, I suppose, and he's under no obligation to conform to my views of what should be done. But, when dealing with themes in which the audience's understanding will be vague at best (such as with the mysteries of the force) it would seem to me to be irresponsible not to let the audience know that the midis could be convinced to destroy life as well as create it, and thus explain how a character as central to Star Wars as Padme could die so mysteriously. The reason I say this is because at least 90% of everything that happens in the 6 movies is explained, clearly enough so that most children 10 years old and up could understand it. If everything that happened was strange and could be chalked up to the mysteries of the force, then Padme's death would be easy to accept because it would fit into that world of Star Wars. To do it in a way where you can't even be sure that it was or wasn't a mystery of the force is strange beyond words to me.

    I'm sure the impact is what rendered our dear Kenobi unconscious. Padme being unconscious in that scene never felt strange to me, and would doubtlessly be what contributed to her death. I honestly don't know what readouts her medical droid was looking at. I'm starting to believe it was an agent of Sidious, that malfunctioned and lost the all important data that her children were alive and well. I will give you this. If there is one hint that her death was caused by the midis, it's that the droid actually states that she's completely healthy, because it would seem so much easier just to say that "she's got all sorts of internal damage and bleeding, and there aint no way I can save this woman. Who did you say she was again?" and then be done with the movie, giving critics one less stone to throw.

    I see your point about Anakin and Padme being closer than Anakin and Obi. The problem I have with it is that it would seem to promote the idea that making bad decisions, and possibly leading others down a bad road is enough to kill a person who is genuinely heart broken over it. And in time, it may be, if said person stops eating right, and stops taking care of themselves in general. I could totally believe Padme dying under those circumstances, because there is real world truth to it. From a story standpoint, it's hard to buy, because, although Padme had to endure a great deal of stress, the citizens of the galaxy were only just beginning a more than twenty year stint where they would all be subjected to the harsh yoke of the empire. Most of them would not have jedi training to fall back on, but I doubt very many of them were spontaneously dropping dead. To me, the most believable part of her death scene was always Obi Wan's reaction to it. The guy seemed totally stunned, and I could feel my expression on his face. :)

    Ya see, this is where I have a problem with the way GL made that move, if what you suggest is indeed true. Because enabling the midis to take life as well as create it makes perfect sense. In fact, it's brilliant. It doesn't have to be something that is brought out all through the films, but at some point before the credits crawl, it would be great to snatch the audience one last time with an epic revelation. But, if it is true, then instead of telling that story so that it improves the story for the audience, it is well hidden. There would be an artistic reason to hide it, I suppose, but I see more artistic quality in actually showing it openly to the audience. It would possibly reinforce the need to introduce midis into Star Wars in the first place.

    As for Anakin actually sapping Padme of midis, -___- I think perhaps GL should have had you on hand as an adviser, because I can't see much reason to keep it all hidden in subtext. It's approaching brilliance, and yet it's a concept so foreign, I'm sure the character don't even consider it. How is the audience supposed to, the way it is presented to them. It's a concept that would deserve explanation every bit as much as Anakin's high midi count, midis in general. GL is usually so good at letting the cat out of the bag, if not in the film, than in interviews, or commentary. It's entirely possible, and definitely something I will be pondering, especially as I re-watch the saga. I just have to wonder if GL actually thought of it, or if he should hire you to go back and make certain concepts in this saga a little easier for the audience to stomach.
    kainee and minnishe like this.
  19. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Maybe he should do another Special Edition and remove the birth scene from ROTS.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  20. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Also consider the little Leia knows about her mother comes from Bail. Leia's memory is mix of mysterious feelings and things Bail probably said.

    It's understandably different with Luke. Owen had more fear for the boy and kept it shrouded in a made up story. It is interesting now that I think about it, that Luke's father is such a mystery in IV and V but there's no thought of, who was mom?
  21. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Another thing I would add to this monster thread is that I think Padme's death goes against modern screen conventions.

    I'll give an example of the "brave hero" convention that is dominant. In the show Star Trek, the crew's life is placed in jeopardy on mostly a weekly basis. Now many real people placed under that type of constant stress would very likely develop very strong psychological maladies as do many soldiers, even soldiers who have only faced death once or a few times. However, understandably, the Star Trek series doesn't show its crew dealing with depression, PTSD, anxiety-issues, insomnia, paranoia, etc., since it that would get pretty dreary. So, it's an understandable convention of an action series, but a convention all the same.

    Well, a couple hundred years ago, it was a big time convention that female protagonists drop dead by the end of a novel: Madame Bovary, Dangeous Liasons, The Coquette, Catherine in Wuthering Heights, etc.

    SW is really combination of multiple genres. It has aspects of mythological conventions, aspects of fairy tales, aspects of Westerns, aspects of science fiction, aspects of family melodrama, aspects of a Flash Gordon serial, etc.

    Anyway, maybe really why Padme's death poses so much of a problem to a lot of people is that we've become so use to the conventions of the modern action hero genre that when we see Padme suffer the fate associated with the conventions of storyline's of the past, it seems out of place. Now it isn't like this is the only time GL uses conventions from past literary styles. All his films are a mish-mash of different conventions. Still, the "strong hero" has become such a dominant convention in our time that some people simply may not like it when one of heroes does not conform to it, even at a time when everything this character cares for in life has basically been destroyed. We've been exposed to this strong action hero convention so many times (basically in every single action movies there is), that we don't see how ridiculous it is that heroes are consistently depicted as fearless and unstoppable and come to feel that all it would be odd if any hero didn't act according to these conventions.

    Again, as I've said before, ROTS doesn't do a good enough job of showing us all of what Padme has really lost (basically everything, she'll even have to give up her babies). Still, I wonder if Padme's death breaking modern film conventions also plays a part in some peoples' dislike of the scene.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Jul 11, 2013
  22. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4

    Fair point, Carbon. I wonder if they'll still be unpicking X-Men 3 plot issues in 35 years though.
  23. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Interesting observation, and there may be a lot of truth to it. Taking it a little further, though... I've always thought that Star Wars in general was a story where the heroes did not react the same to
    stress and tragic situations the way we mere mortals would. That Padme lost everything is not unique to her character in the saga (Anakin, Luke, and Leia) but the others recovered very quickly.
    (even Anakin, after the death of his mother) When I lost my mother I was a wreck for a couple years, and though Anakin never fully recovered from it (the loss of a parent is not something I think
    most people ever fully recover from) he was quite functional and focused only a few scenes later, which is something that I, on a personal level can't relate to.

    For her part, because of the way heroes in Star Wars have been portrayed in the past, Padme's death was jarring to a lot of people. It appears to have gone totally against the established
    convention we'd seen throughout the saga. She appeared to have died from much the same situation that other characters had shrugged off. (at the moment I'm considering Cryogenic's
    theory on this very seriously. I would like to think that she didn't give up and die just because certain bad thing had happened.) Anytime something jarring like that happens in any piece of fiction,
    it's likely to be scrutinized. A lot of people will scrutinize it, because they may actually believe that there is a possibility that they missed some important plot point, which might actually be the
    case for me. I'm not really even sure at this point.
  24. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    I always assumed that Owen & Luke had conversations about his mom & dad, and the only reason he talks to Obiwan about his father specifically is because Obiwan brings it up and Luke says, "You knew my father?"
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.