TO LFL - Stop abusing Han and Leia's Romance!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CMinor, Jan 19, 2001.

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  1. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    First, let's have a moments silence for the tragedy that occurred today.







    dp4m, thank you for the spoilers. They sound good, but it does seem like Han and Leia have a secondary plotline. I might look at the book in the bookstore, but as of now I am burnt out on the NJO. At least it's only a month or so until Tatooine Ghost.

    I found a wonderful post defending Leia at these forums. I didn't write it, but I think the author had a lot of good points. Here it is:



    OK, now some of you are not going to agree with me, when I say that Leia IS a Jedi. A decent Jedi too. And that?s fine. You?re entitled to your opinion(s). But I believe that she IS a Jedi, by the standards of both the Old Order and the New. No matter what anyone says, including Luke and her own children. Leia is a Jedi and she became one a long time ago.

    Also, I am quite frankly getting sick and tired of many characters (not to mention fans) demeaning Leia, not only for ?not? being a Jedi, but also for being an uncaring mother and for not giving her the respect that she deserves. Obviously, the majority of teenagers don?t always get along with their parents, but if I had said to my parents some of the comments Jaina had given Leia over the years, I?d be quite possibly kicked out of home for my selfishness and ungratefullness. And Jaina isn?t the only one.

    Although, I?m a sucky debater, I hope to make you all at LEAST agree that Leia has been mistreated.

    ?I am a Jedi, like my father before me.?

    TRAINING - Of course, one of the biggest arguments is that Leia?s training was all helter-skelter, especially when she was Chief of State. But I don?t think that means anything. It has been stated over and over that Tionne Solusar hardly has any Force talent, yet no one denies her being a Jedi. In fact, she is one of the most recognisable female Jedi in Luke?s Order. Leia?s own daughter, Jaina, is (by the statements of many characters) very powerful in the Force, as she is descended from Vader, the Chosen One himself. Yet, in the NJO especially, Jaina has hardly used the Force, and even when she does, I personally don?t think her usage of it was very special.

    Leia herself HAS had training. That much is clear, but I don?t see why both certain characters and fans say she isn?t. Mara herself by HER OWN ADMISSION did not have much training. Even under Palpatine, most of her training was in espionage, spying and assassination, etc, not in using the Force. Although Palpatine did teach her on the Force, it was not only scattered training(when she wasn?t on missions for him) but it was also only on the basics. Mara turned down a position at Luke?s Academy.

    Yet after being married to Luke for six years, Mara is given the title of Jedi Master!!

    She also states that after her marriage, she didn?t frequent the Academy much even then. Same goes for Corran Horn. His personal decision to leave the Academy and devote his life to the military and his family is his decision, but now he also seems to have more Force talent than Leia, even though he has arguably also had less training than her.

    Many times throughout the EU, there HAVE been scenes were Leia has been training in some way. TAB, each book in TTT, the DARK EMPIRE trilogy, JAT, COTJ, POT, TNR, and even the CORELLIAN TRILOGY, all have Leia training in at least one scene, but most of these depict more than one. They also make pointed references to her training at multiple other times as well.

    As well as training in the Force, Leia clearly knows how to use a lightsaber. She beat the cloned Palpatine in a duel. She also beat Luke in AMBUSH AT CORELLIA. She used it against numerous other enemies, such as Viqi Shesh, Beldorian (the Hutt), Joruus C?Baoth and Irek Ismaren (Notice Shesh is the only non-Jedi listed). Not to mention other individuals in comics and places I have neglected to mention. (After all, I can?t remember EVERY detail. ) She also beat Luke in AMBUSH AT CORELLIA. And this is where he declared her a JEDI KNIG
  2. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Actually, the book seems to be going in the direction of three plots, with some smaller branching -- one with Luke, Mara and their crew and one with Han, Leia and their crew. The kids are split one and one and other young and older Knights get split between the two. The third plot is unrelated to the other two (for now).

    Another line (hightlight):
    Leia (to Han): "Don't tell me, you're getting a bad feeling about this place, right?"
  3. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks dp4m :)

    Any romance yet? :)
  4. Fortherea Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2003
    star 1
    thanks for that post, eeyore. I have not much to add.
    I'm also totally sick of Leia being accused of wasting her Jedi potential. She's just chosen another path than Luke and the others, just as Cilghal did, who became a healer and as Tionne who became a....yeah, what would you call her? Storyteller? Historian? THEY don't have a problem to be accepted as Jedis. Why is it so impossible to be a politician/ Jedi? In the "Old Order" diplomatic missions seemed to be normal for the Jedi so it is only understandable for a Jedi to stick to politics. And I don't want Leia to retreat from politics or rather not returning to it in the next books. I was so disappointed, when she wasn't chosen to be in Cal Omas' Advisory Council thing in DW .... instead he chose Luke!!! Man, I hate the NJO. Very tragic, that I simply have to keep reading it, I'm addicted to it.
  5. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Welcome Fortherea :)

    One thing that REALLY bugs me is listing Leia as Formal New Republic Diplomat. Come ON!. She is far, far more than that. She was the Chief of State for almost two decades!

    They should list her as Jedi Knight; former Chief of State

    Former New Republic diplomat is really lame - it makes it sound like she has no present position and that she did nothing important in the past! :mad:
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    She deserves better than that. And Jaina's bio at TOS still talks about how Jaina always resented Leia, how she turned to -- you guessed it -- Mara (who's described as a Jedi master while Leia is a "former New Republic diplomat"), who understood her, bonded with her, blah blah blah.

    That's a good point that the poster made, about Leia never succumbing to the Dark Side, unlike nearly all of her family. She's got more strength than most of the rest of them put together, but she's still treated with disdain. Even Jacen thinks about how she's only half-trained.

    Thanks for the excerpts, dp4m. Even if Han and Leia aren't central figures in the upcoming books, at least they aren't being mistreated.
  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    That's a good point that the poster made, about Leia never succumbing to the Dark Side, unlike nearly all of her family. She's got more strength than most of the rest of them put together, but she's still treated with disdain. Even Jacen thinks about how she's only half-trained.

    I think that we've discussed this both in this thread (I'm fairly sure I've mentioned it here) and in the "Was there any exploration of Leia turning to the Dark Side?" thread where there was a bunch of good discussion that she was the only one of her family not to ever really come close... :)
  8. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    I did find the description of Mara has a surrogate mother who spent time with Jaina unlike Leia in the New Essential Guide very offensive to Leia. Normally, kids "adopt" surrogate parents when they're either very young, or lack that parent in their life (like Anakin somewhat adopted Obi-Wan as his surrogate father). Leia wasn't lacking in Jaina's life; I just looked at a YJK book recently, and Jaina describes Leia as her role model, her closest friend, and someone she aspires to be like. She marvels at how Leia could have held the galaxy together for years but still remain such a devoted parent to her and siblings. She was 16 at the time, where Mara was already her aunt for several years.

    On the kids not feeling Leia's pain but feelings Mara's: I've been thinking about this and it's not necessarily an insult or deride to Leia, but perhaps a tribute to her. When you think about it, of course Leia has far greater control and calmness over her emotions. She's been raised that way from birth, and she has extraordinary inner strength and hiding pain (look at her reaction when Alderaan is destroyed, you can tell it's killing her, but she doesn't break down and cry). So it makes sense that Leia wouldn't broadcast her pain to various beings in the galaxy, couple that with the fact that Leia is just about the most selfless person alive and wouldn't want to bring pain to anyone else if she could prevent it.

    Mara just lacks the calmness and control Leia has; perhaps after a few decades of living her lifestyle she will have a fraction of it, but it only makes sense that she broadcasts her pain to other beings in the galaxy while Leia supresses it, now that I think about it.
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Exactly, eeyore. Let's look at the record: Leia experiences pain much worse than labor, but keeps it to herself as much as possible. Mara goes into labor, no doubt with painkillers present, and broadcasts it to the whole galaxy.

    Who has more strength?

    I just wish there was appreciation of that, especially consiering how various characters go on about how strong, brave, etc. Mara is. Leia has been through far worse than Mara, but the paragraph in DW is about the only time Leia's strength has been commented on.

    Jaina looked up to Leia until the NJO. This "resentment of her mother" came out of nowhere, as did her bond and closeness with Mara.
  10. Sologal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2000
    star 4
    eeyore, thanks for posting that wonderful essay on Leia. The poster certainly tells it like it is. Leia is, without question in my mind, a much stronger character in every way then Luke and deserves to be given the respect that's due her.

    Thanks for the Remnant line, dp4m. That one seems to pop up frequently. ;)
  11. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Well, it outright says that Leia's pain in the aftermath of her torture was one hundred times worse than childbirth (something Leia has experienced three times, and I don't remember Luke buckling over in pain during her labour - when she wasn't even a Jedi Knight then) so I think we can safely assume from that that Leia has tremendous and admirable control over her release of emotions to other people through the Force than even a Jedi Master.

    spoiler space...







    I've been hearing some good things about Force Heretic. I may read it in the bookstore, but I don't plan to buy it. I heard that Han and Leia are only secondary characters, and while they do argue and banter a lot, there are no "nice moments" between them. I also heard that Han keeps picking fights with Leia all throughout the book, and I'm kind of tired of that dynamic myself.

    Apparently Luke gets quite a bit of respect in this book, like lines like this:

    Luke: "I hope Ben turns out to be smarter than his father. Or at least more perceptive."

    Jacen: "I'm not sure that would be possible."

    I hope Leia is given the same respect, and that Jacen remembers it was Leia who kept faith in him that he was alive, not Luke, not Mara, not Jaina. Leia. It would disappoint me greatly if this were not even mentioned in Force Heretic.







  12. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7
    So Mara was promoted to Masterhood after six Jedi years.

    Was that any different to Luke? Or Eelysa? 13 in TNR, she was still only 23 in SBS. Ha!
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Was that any different to Luke? Or Eelysa? 13 in TNR, she was still only 23 in SBS. Ha!

    Luke was assumed a Knight in TTT which was 8 ABY. In Dark Empire I think is the first time he is considered a Master (maybe?) which is 9 ABY.

    At a minimum, JAT is the first definitive appearance of Luke taking on students which is 14 ABY.

    Whichever case -- it's not 6 years.
  14. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7
    Luke has only been a Knight since ROTJ. If Dark Empire is calling him Master, then he was a Knight for 6yrs, no?
  15. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    Ummm, how did we get on this topic? ?[face_plain]
  16. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7
    Because of me!

    I take all the credit . . . :D . . . how fiendish of me.
  17. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    you'll love page 133 of Force Heretic. ;)


  18. Puggy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2002
    star 3
    SPOIL ME! I'm definitely not going to read NJO... Maybe the very last book, but only if I hear Han and Leia actually get good, strong roles and they're actually lovey-doveyish. Personally, I think the NJO books (from what I've heard) are travesties and they've destroyed Han/Leia's relationship. No matter what they do, for me, LFL will never be able to "make up" for what they've done.

    But hey, if they've actually added a good part on this page 133, by all means, spoil me, spoil me, please!
  19. eeyore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 3
    I don't recommend buying it, Puggy, if you're reading it for the H/L parts you'll be very disappointed.

    Spoiler space...












    Nothing terribly offensive in this book, like BP, but nothing great either. Tahiri and Jaina dominate the point of view the vast majority of the time, so most of what we see of Han and Leia is from their POV as "Anakin's parents" "Jaina's mother", etc., etc.

    I didn't like the interaction between them AT ALL. All they did was fight over the tiniest little thing again and again. It made both of them look immature, and it made the kids look smarter than them with how they kept rolling their eyes by going "Oh Mom and Dad are fighting AGAIN." Plus, Han seemed completely hen-pecked. Every time he picked an argument with Leia, she made him shut up, and it came off like Leia completely dominates him. :(

    There was also no mention of Jacen and his mother's special relationship at all. They sure dropped the ball on this plotline. :(

    Also, Leia's referred to as (various mentions) wrinkled, gray-haired, old, middle-aged, helpless, weak, and a non-Jedi. No thanks. :(

    I didn't buy it, for the reasons above.









  20. mutley Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1998
    star 4
    Maybe I'm lost in some sort of timeline difference but the last book out was Remnant and I assume that the previous reference on P133 was in regard to that book.

    It's a nice read......

    As for the grey-haired etc thought on Leia I have not finished reading the book such is real life but what I have read(the H&L parts) makes me think that both authors have a soft spot for this character, Leia is mentioned as being beautiful etc which is a nice change.

    Although I admit the reference to Anakin's Mother, Anakin's Parents is grating on me perhaps there is a reason for it.

    I actually like this book from the short bits I've been able to read and look forward to the next.

    PS: This thread needs to keep going I'm happy to see it continue on a new thread and get another 8,000 posts :)
  21. Sologal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2000
    star 4
    Remnant spoilers below . . .


















    I'm a little better then half-way through, but so far I haven't been overly impressed, particularly with the Han and Leia parts. Like eeyore mentioned almost all their scenes are from either Jaina's or Tahiri's POV. It's definitely getting annoying reading them decribed as Anakin's mom and dad all of the time.

    Other then that I haven't read any of their scenes that have really angered or offended me. They do seem to be arguing a little more, but I actually think that's a good sign in that it shows how their marriage has recovered to the point they can do so without animosity. But like Jaina pointed out in one scene, it is mostly just play fighting and she did think about how much stronger her parents marriage has become.

    I don't want to make a final judgement until I've finished the book, but it seems so far anyway, that Han and Leia are once again merely secondary characters and their mission is turning out to be more about Jaina and Tahiri. Surprise . . . surprise. They do seem to be written well, agruing aside, and it's definitely nice to see Leia described as being beautiful, but it's disappointing that they don't appear to be that important to the story. They're getting a little more page space then they did in DW, but it still pales in comparision to other characters, and no I'm not talking about Luke and Mara. They haven't gotten a lot of page space devoted to them either.






































  22. mutley Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1998
    star 4
    I'm not sure if by nature we read things in a different way-but at least the characters I love have been written better than before.

    I think the book is worth the read if nothing else it shows H&L how I would assume them to be after everything that they have had to put up with.

    That's bad grammer-pls forgive. At the very least I would ask people to buy/borrow/read the book, compered to others it's not that bad.

  23. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Well, looks like the NJO authors are once again dissing Han and Leia's relationship. It seems all they can do is have the two fight constantly. I think part of the reason for this is most of these authors apparently didn't see ROTJ and the difference in their relationship. But mostly, I get the impression they just don't seem to like them.

    Even worse is the bashing of Leia. It REALLY seems the authors are going all out to destroy her character in every way possible, physically and mentally. I've always felt that Leia would have aged gracefully, yet the authors portray her as looking like Yoda. Also, there's this nonsense about Tahari (or whatever her name is) outclassing Leia during the entire mission. Give me a break! Leia might slow down later in her life but there is little doubt that no matter how old she is, she would still be the one in charge. This is more anti-Leia bias and more "non-Jedi" bias by the authors.

    Speaking of this, here goes the books pushing the belief that Leia is a "Force-weakling." This is nonsense. Leia basically became a Jedi in the Dark Empire series, yet most of the EU has chosen to ignore this. This despite the fact the comic series is considered canon. I'm not sure this has been mentioned but there is another important fact that proves Leia is a Jedi.

    The prequels have shown that the Jedi were more than warriors. They were peacemakers first, warriors last. Leia has proven herself to be the best diplomat in the Galaxy. In the Old Republic, she would have been one of the Jedi Order's greatest diplomat's. None of the NJO Jedi seem capable of doing anything else but wielding a lightsaber.

    Take Tahiri for instance...as I understand it, she disrespects and bashes Leia by saying she is weak and old, and not a true Jedi. This, ladies and gentlemen is the Jedi Order today. Arrogant and disrespectful to anyone who isn't a Jedi and doesn't have their "kewl" powers. Very elitist.
  24. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Everything Darth Pipes said above (other than the mistakenly continued belief of Leia being not Force-strong) is, IMO, completely overblown.

    It's not anywhere even close to that bad and I've finished the book.
  25. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
















    Well, even if Leia has wrinkles and gray hair, she's still being described as beautiful, which means her ageing isn't being referred to derisively, like it has been in the past. And it sounds like Han and Leia do play secondary roles, which is disappointing, but at least the page time isn't deliberately being given to Luke and Mara instead due to author preference, as was the case in BP. Sounds more like the junior set of characters are being promoted while the older characters are placed more and more in the background.

    I was told that Tahiri does not take charge; Leia took a nurturing role with her and they bonded.















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